Harely's tantrum stance is REALLY good...kinda dumb

[Basic Stupidity]

First, Harelys tantrum stance both high profiles and low profiles way too many moves no matter what they are.
Heres a quick little intro to what she can low profile

And now for the high profile while she is using the move.

Of course this wouldnt be complete to mention the fact that this is the longest ranged low starter that is not a projectile in the entire game.
Its also not fair to not mention that this move is EXTREMELY easy to hit confirm and it gives you a ridiculous amount of hit stun.

And lets not forget that she can do this special after her d1 and mix it up against several characters with a b2 after. (For those visual learners)

the d1 into tantrum combos aswell. Also it has several other options after it to make her safer and if the opponent guesses wrong on their punish they could be getting full combo punished into setup.

 

[Laos_boy]

Nerf Catwoman tho lul.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

I thought this was known since IGAU... In IGAU she legit couldn't get hit out of this animation.

But are we realy gonna pretend this is something someone is just going to throw out in the neutral?
Also there's no guessing when punishing it, it's always a punish no matter what, backroll is -100000, cartwheel is -10 and forward roll is very minus. All you have to do is react to what she is doing, it'd tricky yeah but just practice it. Throwing this move out is very yolo and no good Harley is going to just throw out other than after whiff punishing or a hard read but if it gets blocked she is getting punished.

D1 into tantrum or walk back B2 is nothing special... This is counterpoking in a nutshell. D1~tantrum can be interrupted easily and the examples you just showed are very generic, there's a timing to it other than just mashing D1 and walking back to whiff punish a poke is fighting game 101, most if not every characters have this.

 

[Basic Stupidity]

I thought this was known since IGAU... In IGAU she legit couldn't get hit out of this animation.

But are we realy gonna pretend this is something someone is just going to throw out in the neutral?
Also there's no guessing when punishing it, it's always a punish no matter what, backroll is -100000, cartwheel is -10 and forward roll is very minus. All you have to do is react to what she is doing, it'd tricky yeah but just practice it. Throwing this move out is very yolo and no good Harley is going to just throw out other than after whiff punishing or a hard read but if it gets blocked she is getting punished.

D1 into tantrum or walk back B2 is nothing special... This is counterpoking in a nutshell. D1~tantrum can be interrupted easily and the examples you just showed are very generic, there's a timing to it other than just mashing D1 and walking back to whiff punish a poke is fighting game 101, most if not every characters have this.

You dont walk back punish the d1 counter poke the b2 does it for you allowing one of the fastest counter poke punishes after a d1. Many characters do indeed have to guess on the tantrum stance due to limiting normals and strings. Also she can always delay her options (something most characters cant punish even on a read) causing the punishing windows to be blurred. Her tantrum stance into cartwheel is only minus 10 and because of input issues majority of the time has to be blocked overhead if you want the punish but then you can get hit by the low. She has forward roll after stance aswell where she could go for an instant j1 or d1 or maybe even armor (depending on how your opponent would try to punish). As for no good harley uses it and its getting punished everytime just go and watch any games biohazard uses her against any competent player and youll see that the move is one of the most often used moves and is punished less times than not.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

You dont walk back punish the d1 counter poke the b2 does it for you allowing one of the fastest counter poke punishes. Many characters do indeed have to guess on the tantrum stance due to limiting normals and strings. Also she can always delay her options (something most characters cant punish) causing the punishing windows to be blurred. Her tantrum stance into cartwheel is only minus 10 and because of input issues majority of the time has to be blocked overhead if you want the punish but then you can get hit by the low. She has forward roll after stance aswell where she could go for an instant j1 or d1 or maybe even armor (depending on how your opponent would try to punish). As for no good harley uses it and its getting punished everytime just go and watch any games biohazard uses her against any competent player and youll see that the move is one of the most often used moves and is punished less times than not.

It's always a punish no matter what, having to learn how to punish her is a must of course but that's the player's fault if they let her go away with it. The fact that you think forward roll into IJ1 is an issue only reinforces my point that people should learn how to punish.

B2 is not doing it for you, doing D1 into B2 raw is not a good idea at all, walking back into B2 is a great option but as I said, that's counterpoking for you.

A lot of characters are getting away with stuff as of now but honestly getting her hitbox changed and making her options EVEN MORE punisheable would be pretty whatever since it's not safe at all, it's just people who don't wanna lab stuff are letting her go away with it.
Nerfing tantrum stance would be weird but by all means do it, it wouldn't change anything.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

Tantrum Stance is good, but it's not overpowered, for exactly the reason @EMPRESS_SunFire already stated - it's death on block.

Coupled with Harley not having the best overheads ever, that's enough to make it balanced.

 

[Basic Stupidity]

It's always a punish no matter what, having to learn how to punish her is a must of course but that's the player's fault if they let her go away with it. The fact that you think forward roll into IJ1 is an issue only reinforces my point that people should learn how to punish.

A lot of characters are getting away with stuff as of now.

or like i said her options allow for the punishing windows to be blurred and there is no direct way(s) to punish her and you have to make reads. It could be death on block against a select cast of characters that dont have to worry about her rolls or cartwheels because of their range but a large amount of characters do not have the range to punish these options quickly enough and as effectively so they have to make reads for their punishes.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

or like i said her options allow for the punishing windows to be blurred and there is no direct way(s) to punish her and you have to make reads. It could be death on block against a select cast of characters that dont have to worry about her rolls or cartwheels because of their range but a large amount of characters do not have the range to punish these options quickly enough and as effectively so they have to make reads for their punishes.

Every character can full combo punish her backroll with a jump in on reaction, it's literally death on block but let 's say you are really bad at punishing it, the worst thing you get is free pressure.

The "mindgame" is always in your favor since she only gets a combo off cartwheel, her other two options are just to stay "safe", she isn't getting any damage off them.

 

[Basic Stupidity]

Every character can full combo punish her backroll with a jump in on reaction, it's literally death on block but let 's say you are really bad at punishing it, the worst thing you get is free pressure.

The "mindgame" is always in your favor since she only gets a combo off cartwheel, her other two options are just to stay "safe", she isn't getting any damage off them.

Thats completely false. If you were to attempt to d1 punish harelys forward roll on reaction with a 6 frame d1 and you did not react in the 26 frames necessary than you are getting full combo punished by a j1. If you were to not get to harelys back roll in time then you will have to be cautious throwing any high out because you might get hit by a d1 into full combo. If you were to miss the timing against her 10 frame punish window in her cartwheel it again is not free pressure because many characters punishing strings begin with a high which is another free d1 combo punish. Trust me, i believe you 100% that it is punishable however due to all of her options and abilities to change the timings of several different punishes it is not death on block against characters who lack solid d1s mids and progressing strings.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Thats completely false. If you were to attempt to d1 punish harelys forward roll on reaction with a 6 frame d1 and you did not react in the 26 frames necessary than you are getting full combo punished by a j1. If you were to not get to harelys back roll in time then you will have to be cautious throwing any high out because you might get hit by a d1 into full combo. If you were to miss the timing against her 10 frame punish window in her cartwheel it again is not free pressure because many characters punishing strings begin with a high which is another free d1 combo punish. Trust me, i believe you 100% that it is punishable however due to all of her options and abilities to change the timings of several different punishes it is not death on block against characters who lack solid d1s mids and progressing strings.

Not reacting to 26 frame moves is on you tho, also I want you to go into practice mode and watch how incredibly - backroll is, if you get D1 hit put of your punish it's completely on you, just learn how to punish these moves.

I would agree with you if backroll was something around -10 but it's nowhere near that safe,,,

 

[Basic Stupidity]

Not reacting to 26 frame moves is on you tho, also I want you to go into practice mode and watch how incredibly - backroll is, if you get D1 hit put of your punish it's completely on you, just learn how to punish these moves.

I would agree with you if backroll was something around -10 but it's nowhere newr that safe,,,

Thats not the point. The point was you said if you miss the timing worst case scenario is you get free pressure when that is obviously not the case. It just makes it seem as if your statements are deliberately misleading and misguiding in an attempt to excuse whatever this character has.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Thats not the point. The point was you said if you miss the timing worst case scenario is you get free pressure when that is obviously not the case. It just makes it seem as if your statements are deliberately misleading and misguiding in an attempt to excuse whatever this character may have.

The recovery is so bad that literally the worst that can happen is getting pressure started, you can jump in, dash in or use an advancing normal.
If you are letting her recover from THAT and still hit d1 while you're just about to start your move then you gotta have some extremely bad reactions.

Not really I was talking about you starting pressure at worst if you went for a jump in punish and somehow happened to miss it but as I said, no matter what kind of punish you are going for, if the Harley is doing J1 or D1 then it's your fault considering how - those are.

Trust me, if Tantrum stance was actually safe I wouldn't even be talking about this and would be asking for nerfs myself. And even if they happen to make it MORE negative, people would still cry because if you can't punish a -1000 on block move then it being -2000 wouldn't change anything and good players are already or will eventually get better at punishing, which means the nerfs would be whatever, they wouldn't change a thing.

 

[x TeeJay o]

Sunfire is right bro. Lol just learn how to punish it. Hit the lab, learn how your character can punish TS and the roll. TS is working as intended. She's literally laying on the ground so ofc you would be able to use a high to hit her of she sits down like that. But shocker, you can d1 her out of it on reaction. This is legit a non issue...

 

[FL Rushdown]

Thats completely false. If you were to attempt to d1 punish harelys forward roll on reaction with a 6 frame d1 and you did not react in the 26 frames necessary than you are getting full combo punished by a j1. If you were to not get to harelys back roll in time then you will have to be cautious throwing any high out because you might get hit by a d1 into full combo. If you were to miss the timing against her 10 frame punish window in her cartwheel it again is not free pressure because many characters punishing strings begin with a high which is another free d1 combo punish. Trust me, i believe you 100% that it is punishable however due to all of her options and abilities to change the timings of several different punishes it is not death on block against characters who lack solid d1s mids and progressing strings.

If you can't react in 26 frames the game isn't balanced around your abilities. Sorry but that's how it is.

 

[RagingRicans]

Fuck Harley

 

[Basic Stupidity]

Sunfire is right bro. Lol just learn how to punish it. Hit the lab, learn how your character can punish TS and the roll. TS is working as intended. She's literally laying on the ground so ofc you would be able to use a high to hit her of she sits down like that. But shocker, you can d1 her out of it on reaction. This is legit a non issue...

Youve got to be kidding me did you even watch the videos? Working as intended. I dont suppose you're really suggesting that those lows and overheads were intended to miss the body that they are literally going through. And you see several times of d1s whiffing the move while on the ground or on activation. Are you trolling or are you too lazy to even look at the evidence before you downplay.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

roll on reaction with a 6 frame d1 and you did not react in the 26 frames necessary

If you're letting yourself get blown up by a -26 move into an ij1(which is probably an extra 10 or so frames and not reacting, it is 100% on you. Seems like you just need to lab it.

 

[B. Shazzy]

i agree and someone should tell ed boon to fix this character soon op

 

[Basic Stupidity]

If you can't react in 26 frames the game isn't balanced around your abilities. Sorry but that's how it is.

Youre completely ignoring the whole point. The move is already ridiculous and she has several options after it is blocked to make it safer. And its not as simple as 26 frames react. During her forward roll she also low profiles mids and some lows. This once again limits your options in punishing her especially with certain characters. Some characters can get best a d1 into a non launching special. But I thought it was supposed to be "death on block".
Not only this but forward roll also looks very similar to cartwheel on startup further blurring the lines of punish.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

Sunfire is right bro. Lol just learn how to punish it. Hit the lab, learn how your character can punish TS and the roll. TS is working as intended. She's literally laying on the ground so ofc you would be able to use a high to hit her of she sits down like that. But shocker, you can d1 her out of it on reaction. This is legit a non issue...

I do think that a lot of his issues are kinda void, but personally I do think the way it goes through everything batman has is admittedly dumb. If you watch the video, it even goes through b112. Unless it isn't low profiling and she's actually classified as invincible in that state, these things actually kinda shouldnt be happening imo.

Just tested it, and yeah, it does have really weird low profiling properties. In all honesty though, I personally don't think it matters in this scenario because she still has to do something, and you can punish any option she does. Shouldn't low profile regardless though.

 

[Basic Stupidity]

If you're letting yourself get blown up by a -26 move into an ij1(which is probably an extra 10 or so frames and not reacting, it is 100% on you. Seems like you just need to lab it.

First that extra 10 frames or so is in the air preventing a d1 or low or low mid attack from hitting.

Second forward roll looks very similar to cartwheel for atleast 11 frames. hard to make that judgement call that quickly unless you want to risk getting full comboed.

Third, if youre one of those unlucky folk that needs to punish with a normal that is not d1 then youre going to have to worry about the inputs in the game and decide whether or not you are going to continue blocking low and risk some random 20 frame special or bite the bullet and block overhead so you can get out the right button.

Last the rolls low profile lots of normals preventing clean punishes. Better hope youve got a combo launcher after your d1 otherwise that "death on block" move is no longer so death on block

 

[Azxrath.]

How are threads like these even allowed to stay up

 

[x TeeJay o]

Youre completely ignoring the whole point. The move is already ridiculous and she has several options after it is blocked to make it safer. And its not as simple as 26 frames react. During her forward roll she also low profiles mids and some lows. This once again limits your options in punishing her especially with certain characters. Some characters can get best a d1 into a non launching special. But I thought it was supposed to be "death on block".
Not only this but forward roll also looks very similar to cartwheel on startup further blurring the lines of punish.

I do think that a lot of his issues are kinda void, but personally I do think the way it goes through everything batman has is admittedly dumb. If you watch the video, it even goes through b112. Unless it isn't low profiling and she's actually classified as invincible in that state, these things actually kinda shouldnt be happening imo.

Just tested it, and yeah, it does have really weird low profiling properties. In all honesty though, I personally don't think it matters in this scenario because she still has to do something, and you can punish any option she does. Shouldn't low profile regardless though.

please.

 

[x TeeJay o]

Would you like me to showcase punishing TS with an 8f normal as well? It's -10 on block every character can punish it. Most have 6f s1 or d1. Hell you don't even need to do a d1 just stand punish it lol

 

[Basic Stupidity]

please.

wow lucky you, your normals work as intended but get this believe it or not, not everyone plays characters that can. It must be so easy to say its an easy punish when the problem doesnt effect you.
Also good luck doing that everytime on a blocked d1. (do d1 into b2 with harely).