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General Discussion About Zoning, Footsies and The Neutral Game

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
If anyone has any other links they know about, please do not hesitate to post them and I will add them to the OP. And also don't be shy to ask questions or post your own insight as well!
 

axeman87

Noob
Great thread!

The SF vid was very good, I only wish I could relate to it a bit more and someone would make the same video for MK.

I'm not sure about TB's statement that 'Aquaman has better Footsies'. Aren't Footsie's fundamentally completely outside of a characters design and move set and a strategy?
 
Glad this thread was made, hopefully we will see more threads like this when mkx drops regarding normals to use in the neutral game. I would also like to see more neutral game video tutorials for mkx as well. I know @Evil Eddy Wang was doing something like this for skarlet for mk9, it would be great to have more for the rest of the cast straight out the gate. It would level up the new player base tremendously.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I think Momochi's understanding of footsies and zoning is really remarkable. It's almost like watching art when he plays, so godlike!
And he came up with some crazyness that i'm sure no one as ever seen before.

He just whiff punished Ibuki's tsumuji with ex Tatsu, i had to replay that more than 5 times just to make sure that wasn''t random, even Sako got impressed.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
I have a feeling it will be more prevalent with MKX. With content in general, a lot of streams have been popping up lately.
I wish there were more vids on topic in question rather than "check out these swag 4 bars MK combos that do 35%!!"
 
I apologize if this isn't necessarily the place to ask questions, but I'm hoping someone could explain the use of d3/1 in neutral, it seems like I see them used as just really fast normals to help you get advantage and start offense after you block something that's neutral or negative. My problem is that I come from a SF/Arc Sys backround and can't seem to actually gain advantage very well. Is it best for me to only stick one d1 or d3 and cancel it into something? Or do I throw out multiple to help me confirm into something?
 

cyke_out

Noob
I apologize if this isn't necessarily the place to ask questions, but I'm hoping someone could explain the use of d3/1 in neutral, it seems like I see them used as just really fast normals to help you get advantage and start offense after you block something that's neutral or negative. My problem is that I come from a SF/Arc Sys backround and can't seem to actually gain advantage very well. Is it best for me to only stick one d1 or d3 and cancel it into something? Or do I throw out multiple to help me confirm into something?
Generally- not all the time- d3/d4, d1's have advabtage on hit. If you sneak in a d3, it's basically your turn to attack. The opponent has to respect what you do and be under pressure, if he doesn't respect your advantahe and tries to attack out of disadvantage, he could be in a world of hurt.

Think of it like a jab in boxing/mma. Fighters throw them to test ranges and the opponents reactions. If a jab hits, then the attacker can unleash a more powerful right cross or hook.

Once your opponent starts respecting your advantage, you need to read what he does. Does he block? Go for a throw or high/low mix up or use moves with plus frames on block to continue the pressure and deal chip damage. Does he Back dash to try to get you whiff so he can gain the advantage? Use longer reaching moves with good active frames to catch him at the end of his dash. Does he go abare, says fuck it and uses armor to blow through your advantage? Block and punish accordingly.

The general rule of thumb is if you get hit you are at disadvantage, if you block something you are at advantage. But you need to know your frame data since there are plenty of exceptions to this rule, and without the proper knowledge you won't be able to make the right choices.
 
Nice, this is awesome. I have just started getting into fighting games and it took me a loooong time to find all that information. I have 3 friends that just got this game, and when I try to explain the "basics" it gets confusing for everyone.... Thanks for putting it all in one place
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Bumping for relevance. Also, we need someone to do a footsie/spacing tutorial for MKX!

Nice, this is awesome. I have just started getting into fighting games and it took me a loooong time to find all that information. I have 3 friends that just got this game, and when I try to explain the "basics" it gets confusing for everyone.... Thanks for putting it all in one place
No problem man!
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Glad this thread was made, hopefully we will see more threads like this when mkx drops regarding normals to use in the neutral game. I would also like to see more neutral game video tutorials for mkx as well. I know @Evil Eddy Wang was doing something like this for skarlet for mk9, it would be great to have more for the rest of the cast straight out the gate. It would level up the new player base tremendously.
A lot of your threads are the sources used in this thread. We need more arbiters of high level play and mentality like yourself!
 

MadPropz101

"I still got it...but not much of it"
Footsies are the only thing i still can't seem to grasp, i practice Mk X a lot but i still can't get the spacing game right, especially against characters like Kotal Kahn who dominate space so well. I really appreciate those videos posted above, but i'd love it if someone could explain the concept a bit further, especially for this game, on how to improve at footsies and how to practice controlling space.
 
So I have a question being reintroduced to the franchise, when is a high starting combo useful? Seems like every time I try to use one I get poked out of it.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
To add to that, not just d4 confirms, but sometimes anything that leaves you at advantage against standing opponent. Sometimes it may be a part of mixup - highs are usually fast and may be guaranteed to connect in situations when other stuff isn't.

Example: Raiden has restand when he's at +9 or so. His low/OH are 13f, so you can armore out of it, but Raiden can go with f1 (6f) leaving no window for armor, screwing such attempt up.
 
Yeah the problem is that usually a d4 pushes them too far away to land a standing high string. And if I do d1 or d3 first and then a say 1,1,2. I'll get poked because they are ducking the first hit making it a whiff
 
Yeah the problem is that usually a d4 pushes them too far away to land a standing high string. And if I do d1 or d3 first and then a say 1,1,2. I'll get poked because they are ducking the first hit making it a whiff
Follow ups after a D4 on hit are character specific (unlike MK9 where you could follow up with pretty much any string or throw) and spacing dependent. If the opponent is in the corner you can follow up with pretty much anything, but mid screen (where the opponent can stagger back pretty far) you'll have to use a combination of reading the frame data to get a good idea of what you can follow up with and testing it in training mode.
 

JerzeyReign

PSN: JerzeyReign
Question regarding whiff punishing in neutral. Should I use back dash right before or after a string starts. I seem to struggle with spacing and my back dash gets caught often. Is spacing best serve as more of an eyeball test?
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Question regarding whiff punishing in neutral. Should I use back dash right before or after a string starts. I seem to struggle with spacing and my back dash gets caught often. Is spacing best serve as more of an eyeball test?
To perform a whiff punish you need to be outside of the opponent's punishing range, if he miss judges his range you won't even need to backdash.
 

JerzeyReign

PSN: JerzeyReign
Does whiff punish begin after the first whiffed hit or do I have to force the entire string to whiff? In other words, if the first hit misses, would I be using that normal's frame rate data or would I still be looking at the entire string's frame data?
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Does whiff punish begin after the first whiffed hit or do I have to force the entire string to whiff? In other words, if the first hit misses, would I be using that normal's frame rate data or would I still be looking at the entire string's frame data?
On whiff, you don't look into specific frame data except for startup of moves. You aren't in block stun, you only should care if your opponent will be able to hit you with next normal if you move. Moves within strings tend to come out pretty fast and characters tend to move forward while making many normals, so be careful. Usually trying to hit opponent in the middle of his string on whiff is impractical even if possible.
 

JerzeyReign

PSN: JerzeyReign
On whiff, you don't look into specific frame data except for startup of moves. You aren't in block stun, you only should care if your opponent will be able to hit you with next normal if you move. Moves within strings tend to come out pretty fast and characters tend to move forward while making many normals, so be careful. Usually trying to hit opponent in the middle of his string on whiff is impractical even if possible.
Thanks. I was thinking I could poke them out. I appreciate the clarification.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Thanks. I was thinking I could poke them out. I appreciate the clarification.
Sometimes you technically can, especially if you have something that, say, low profiles second hit. It's just almost impossible on reaction to hit your opponent out of the string with standing normal most of the time IMO. If he is positioned so that entire string whiffs though, you will have a lot of time to react and it's reasonable thing to do I suppose.
 
I originally wanted to make a series of videos about certain neutral game concepts (although I still struggle with them myself), but couldn't since I transferred. Here's a video I made a while back on whiff punishing in injustice. These aren't the best examples, but I would assume in MKX whiff punishing would be much easier due the the faster walk speeds: