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Frame Data Question (what’s safe)?

I mostly learned frame data when learning SFV and in SFV, the last startup frame is also the first active frame (so a 3 frame move can punish a move -3 OB).

I’ve heard that NRS doesn’t count frames this way, and as such, a 7 frame move won’t hit until the 8th frame. Is this true?

Also, are there any 6 frame moves in MK11?

Right now, I’m assuming -7 OB is technically safe (ie, not punishable), but please let me know if I’m wrong.

Thanks in advance!
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
In NRS games, usually the startup frames do not include the first active frame.

There are 6 frame moves, so if you are -7 and their 6 frame jab can reach, they could punish you. There's not a ton of characters that have 6 frame jabs though, so it's safe against most of the cast.

Also, reversal specials come out 1 frame earlier, so a 7 frame special could punish a -7 move if done as a reversal.

This is how it works in MKX and Injustice, but I haven't fully tested it in MK11.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
In NRS games, usually the startup frames do not include the first active frame.

There are 6 frame moves, so if you are -7 and their 6 frame jab can reach, they could punish you. There's not a ton of characters that have 6 frame jabs though, so it's safe against most of the cast.

Also, reversal specials come out 1 frame earlier, so a 7 frame special could punish a -7 move if done as a reversal.

This is how it works in MKX and Injustice, but I haven't fully tested it in MK11.
Couldn't have explained it better myself. Also takes a frame to block.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
There are actually no 6 frame normals. This is a big misconception and everyone says it on stream commentary and everywhere else.

If a move says it has 6 frames of startup that means it is ACTIVE on frame 7 which makes it a 7 frame move, not a 6 frame move.

So -7 is safe in most circumstances. There are outliers like that Raiden move that can hit you if you are -7.
 
There are actually no 6 frame normals. This is a big misconception and everyone says it on stream commentary and everywhere else.

If a move says it has 6 frames of startup that means it is ACTIVE on frame 7 which makes it a 7 frame move, not a 6 frame move.

So -7 is safe in most circumstances. There are outliers like that Raiden move that can hit you if you are -7.
These 6 frame D1s can punish -7 moves. though. and 7 frame normals punish -8. So if 6 frames of startup means active on frame 7 then -7 means you block on the 8th frame. At that point we're just shifting around 1 frame with the same result.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
These 6 frame D1s can punish -7 moves. though. and 7 frame normals punish -8. So if 6 frames of startup means active on frame 7 then -7 means you block on the 8th frame. At that point we're just shifting around 1 frame with the same result.
True.

This means that a 6f startup like Geras' d1 hits on the 7th frame and does indeed punish a -7 attack.

People really should still be saying the correct frame for the moves. It is a 7 frame d1 for Geras and Sub-Zero, but they punish anything that is -7.
 

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
True.

This means that a 6f startup like Geras' d1 hits on the 7th frame and does indeed punish a -7 attack.

People really should still be saying the correct frame for the moves. It is a 7 frame d1 for Geras and Sub-Zero, but they punish anything that is -7.
I think we should go by the in-game frame data, otherwise it's going to get hella confusing.

Just understand what exactly that frame data means within the context of this game.

So Geras has a 6 frame D1 that's active on frame 7, and being -7 means you can't block until frame 8. Pretty simple.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Most of the Cancel Advantage for normals and strings is WAY off and this is what determines frame gaps.

The startup, active, and recovery frames seem to be spot on though.
 
Noob question regarding reading frame data. Raiden's 1 has a 7 frame start-up. His 1,2 combo has a 12 frame start-up and his 1,2,1 combo has a 19 frame start-up. Are the different values in the start-ups of his combos actually attributed to the last hit of the combo?
 

mrapchem

Noob
Noob question regarding reading frame data. Raiden's 1 has a 7 frame start-up. His 1,2 combo has a 12 frame start-up and his 1,2,1 combo has a 19 frame start-up. Are the different values in the start-ups of his combos actually attributed to the last hit of the combo?
The 12-frame and 19-frame start up that you refer to is the start-up for the 2 in the 1,2 combo and the last 1 in the 1,2,1 combo respectively. Both 1,2 and 1,2,1 start with standing 1, so they will both start up at 7 frames.

I hope I've clarified that up for you.
 
The 12-frame and 19-frame start up that you refer to is the start-up for the 2 in the 1,2 combo and the last 1 in the 1,2,1 combo respectively. Both 1,2 and 1,2,1 start with standing 1, so they will both start up at 7 frames.

I hope I've clarified that up for you.
You have, thank you.
 
Another frame data question...

Sub-Zero’s D1 has a 9 frame advantage on hit. His slide has 11 frames of startup.

I set the dummy to both Random Kombo and Random Attack and I’ve tried it several dozen times now, and if the D1 hits, so will the slide, if I cancel into it. I haven’t once had the dummy be hit by the D1 and block the slide, but it should if it doesn’t combo... Now, the combo counter doesn’t come up, but it seems like the AI has no choice but to eat it.

I haven’t tried making a D1 xx Slide recording to try blocking it myself, but if this does combo, as it seems like it does, why would it? There should be at least 3 frames for the dummy to block the slide.
 
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Arzumis

Noob
Another frame data question...

Sub-Zero’s D1 has a 9 frame advantage on hit. His slide has 11 frames of startup.

I set the dummy to both Random Kombo and Random Attack and I’ve tried it several dozen times now, and if the D1 hits, so will the slide, if I cancel into it. I haven’t once had the dummy be hit by the D1 and block the slide, but it should if it doesn’t combo... Now, the combo bouncer doesn’t come up, but it seems like the AI has no choice but to eat it.

I haven’t tried making a D1 xx Slide recording to try blocking it myself, but if this does combo, as it seems like it does, why would it? There should be at least 3 frames for the dummy to block the slide.
D1 slide does not combo. Pokes into specials dont combo in mortal kombat
 
Thanks! I just found it odd the dummy wouldn’t block the slide if D1 hit first, but maybe it was just coincidental. For my own curiosity, I’ll have to setup a dummy to do D1 xx Slide and see if I can block slide after D1 hits.

EDIT TO ADD: Slide can be blocked if D1 hits. Not sure why the dummy didn’t ever do it, but I tested blocking it myself.
 
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Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
How does the math behind cancel advantage work?
Every move that can be cancelled will have a cancel advantage, which is the current state of the frame data at the point in time that the move is cancelled. Normals can be cancelled into specials or other normals (strings/"kombo attacks" as they are referred to in the move list).

For example, Sub-Zero has his 33 string.
3 has a cancel advantage of +20 on block.
The second hit of 33 comes out in 29 frames.
This means that the opponent will recover 20 frames after the first 3 is blocked and have 9 frames to interrupt or flawless block before the second 3 comes out.

3 also has a cancel advantage of +32 on hit. This means it will combo into iceball (28 frame startup) or the second hit of 33 (29 frame startup).

d1,d3, d4 all have relatively low cancel advantage, which is why they don't combo on hit.