Frame Data - Punishes Question

[PlusFrames]

I usually understand frame data, but I mostly play Capcom games and am a bit stumped with something I’m seeing in MK11.

If I block a -10 attack, and follow up with a 10 Frame startup Special (and trigger the Reversal Punish flag), I will get the punish.

However, if I mash a 10 Frame startup Normal (this includes testing with a Turbo button to make sure I’m not missing a frame), it will not connect. I have to go with a 9F Normal.

I have heard that in NRS games, the last Startup Frame is not also the first Active Frame (as it is in Street Fighter) but is that true? If so, why does the 10F special work?

It’s almost like the last Startup Frame is also the first Active Frame, but one frame gets eaten registering the Normal input (even if I mash it during block-strings).

I’d just like to understand what exactly is happening so I can understand the system better. Thanks in advance.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

It's Boon magic!

 

[craftycheese]

In my head, I always thought this was because you have to come out of block which adds a frame or something when using a normal.

Edit: Clarification

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Reversal specials eat one frame of blockstun.

In my head, I always thought this was because you have to come out of block which adds a frame or something.

Unblocking frames aren’t a thing. It’s instantaneous.

 

[Matix218]

Reversal specials eat one frame of blockstun.


Unblocking frames aren’t a thing. It’s instantaneous.

But you should be able to punish a -10 on block move with a 10 frame start up normal in that case assuming you input the move of the 1st possible frame, right?

Edit: I guess it would ultimately depend on pushback on the blocked move combined with hitbox on the punish mormal as well. Like if the blocked move pushes back enough that the hitbox of thepunishing normal doesnt reach the opponent for 1 frame of animation it would be impossible to punish with that move. That is likely what is happening in OP's example I think.

 

[PlusFrames]

Reversal specials eat one frame of blockstun.

To clarify, the Startup Frames do not contain any Active Frames (so a standalone 7F startup move hits on the 8th frame), it’s just that Reversal Specials come out one frame earlier?

 

[Matix218]

To clarify, the Startup Frames do not contain any Active Frames (so a standalone 7F startup move hits on the 8th frame), it’s just that Reversal Specials come out one frame earlier?

Doesnt the tutorial of the game say that start up frames refer to the first frame where the move becomes active? If the 1st frame is not active they should change the frame data in game to show 7f moves as 8f, 9f as 10f, etc. It is dumb if a 7f startup listed move doesnt become active until the 8th frame. To me and everyone else who plays fighting games that would be an 8f start up move.

 

[Zviko]

What I don't get is the jailing part. Like 7f high won't punish -7 but it will jail, they can't duck. 7f high special(if there was one) would punish -7 but it would also jail -6. Is that just a design choice?

 

[Hott]

What I don't get is the jailing part. Like 7f high won't punish -7 but it will jail, they can't duck. 7f high special(if there was one) would punish -7 but it would also jail -6. Is that just a design choice?

Yeah, that's called reversal. You can input special move or throw when you block something, it then comes out 1 frame earlier, that's why you get to punish -7 moves with 7 frame specials for example.

For every other question why 7 frame jabs don't punish -7 I'm gonna guess that it works as follows:
-7 on block means that your opponent gains the ability to block on seventh frame. That's the same frame your jab becomes active. That's why you don't punish, but you jail (ducking takes 1 frame, jumping takes like 3). Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Matix218]

Yeah, that's called reversal. You can input special move or throw when you block something, it then comes out 1 frame earlier, that's why you get to punish -7 moves with 7 frame specials for example.

For every other question why 7 frame jabs don't punish -7 I'm gonna guess that it works as follows:
-7 on block means that your opponent gains the ability to block on seventh frame. That's the same frame your jab becomes active. That's why you don't punish, but you jail (ducking takes 1 frame, jumping takes like 3). Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

I think you are right but it doesnt make sense to have it be that way. In every other game -7 means you cannot regain control of your character for a full 7 frames (be it to move, jump, attack, etc.)

If they gain the ability to block on the 7th frame that should mean they were only -6.

If that is how they did it they made it overly complicated and hard to understand for seemingly no reason.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

In NRS games, startup and active aren’t combined like SF games. Additionally, reversals let you out of blockstun a frame earlier which is why a 10f reversal punishes but a normal doesn’t. NRS have always been quite different when it comes to their rules since to my knowledge no other fgs function like this rn.