What's new

Frame data confusion about startup frames

Hello, so which is true, A or B????

A. 1. Startup values include the 1st active frame like every other fighting game.
2. There is 1 frame of recovery after blocking an attack. (to punish -10 you need a 9f startup move or better because of the 1f of block recovery)
3. Reversals skip the 1 frame of block recovery. (to punish -10 you can use a 10f startup move, i.e. reversal throw since the 1f of block recovery is skipped)


B. 1. Startup values DO NOT include the 1st active frame.
2. There is NO 1 frame recovery after blocking an attack. (to punish -10 you need a 9f startup move or better since startup doesnt include 1st active frame)
3. Reversals shave off 1 frame from startup. (to punish -10 you can use a 10f startup move, i.e. reversal throw since even though startup doesn't include 1st active frame, the reversal startup is actually 1 frame shorter)

I hope this makes sense. Can't remember who, but some NRS employee said it was B
I get that either way you still can't approach punishes like Street Fighter (punish -5 with 5f startup) BUT if it's B then the startup values of in game frame data should be changed to be 1f higher (fastest d1 in game is actually 7f, not 6f)

Thoughts?
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Royal Contributor
It's exactly what Bacon said. NRS guys explained it multiple times here and on Twitter
 

Wallach

Noob
OK, can I ask where you learned that?

He's a designer at NRS.

One other thing about frame data; it takes 1 frame to go from standing to ducking (and reverse I would assume). If you hold down after a move that is -9 on block and your opponent reversal throws, it won't be a "punish" (i.e. you can still tech) but you cannot duck that throw since it is active on your transition frame.
 

ArryKae

Noob
Can someone help me? I came home interested in string gaps, learning how to find them and how many frames in between. From what I read, it's..

Start + Active + Recovery = Attack Total Frames

ATF - Cancel Adv + (Block or Hit) Adv = (Block or Hit) Cancel Advantage

So, in a 12, you figure out the B/Hxx for the 1 and subtract that from the start up of the 12. That gives you the gap, if any. Is this correct?

Now, I didn't get that far and made a quick spreadsheet for Kabal's buttons. The real time frame data in training was different than what I came up with, mostly 1 or 2 frames. I tested with the dummy being SubZero, Kitana and Geras. I also tested right up against them and the moves max range.

My question is, why am I getting different values and how do I know which is right? Does it even matter? I'm trying to learn the ins and outs of frame data. It's fun, cause I'm a nerd.

If you look at the image..
xHit & xBlk = my calculations
aHit & aBlk = training real time data
Hit- & Blk- = the difference

Thanks for taking the time to read.
 

Attachments

Can someone help me? I came home interested in string gaps, learning how to find them and how many frames in between. From what I read, it's..

Start + Active + Recovery = Attack Total Frames

ATF - Cancel Adv + (Block or Hit) Adv = (Block or Hit) Cancel Advantage

So, in a 12, you figure out the B/Hxx for the 1 and subtract that from the start up of the 12. That gives you the gap, if any. Is this correct?

Now, I didn't get that far and made a quick spreadsheet for Kabal's buttons. The real time frame data in training was different than what I came up with, mostly 1 or 2 frames. I tested with the dummy being SubZero, Kitana and Geras. I also tested right up against them and the moves max range.

My question is, why am I getting different values and how do I know which is right? Does it even matter? I'm trying to learn the ins and outs of frame data. It's fun, cause I'm a nerd.

If you look at the image..
xHit & xBlk = my calculations
aHit & aBlk = training real time data
Hit- & Blk- = the difference

Thanks for taking the time to read.
It happens when an attack has multiple active frames. All of the frame data in the menu assumes a move hits on the first active frame. If a move with 3 active frames is -7 on block, if it hits on the 2nd active frame it'll be -6, and on the 3rd active frame it'll be -5. This also results in different hit and cancel advantages. One way to get moves to hit on their later active frames is usually to do them at max range.

With that in mind all of your different values make sense except the difference of 4. That one seems impossible.
 
Last edited:

ArryKae

Noob
It happens when an attack has multiple active frames. All of the frame data in the menu assumes a move hits on the first active frame. If a move with 3 active frames is -7 on block, if it hits on the 2nd active frame it'll be -6, and on the 3rd active frame it'll be -5. This also results in different hit and cancel advantages. One way to get moves to hit on their later active frames is usually to do them at max range.

With that in mind all of your different values make sense except the difference of 4. That one seems impossible.
Ok. That makes sense. Thank you. I'll have to check the 4 frame difference when I get home. Maybe I
put down the wrong frame data on accident.