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jokey77

Character Loyalist
Thankya, Ram. I wish more people were as open and communicative as you have been.
Usually I only am on TYM for video game related stuff. I do some trolling and that's it. However this discussion caught my attention.

@Lt. Boxy Angelman : I think that the both of us got very different opinions on quite a few things. Yet I'd really like to exchange some thoughts with you - mostly because I appreciate your positive attitude, but also because of your sincere interest in the whole topic.

So let me begin with a one things that we both agree on and that I consider very important to say:

The whole George Floyd event was just horrible. Every decent human being should ask how we can avoid such tragedy in the future. If this is what BLM stands for, then i am 100% behind the movement.

Now there are two ways to adress the whole problem:

1.) What can I do to change the country for the better?
2.) What can I demand of other people?

Now it is far too easy to name problems so that OTHER people shall solve them. I dislike this attitude as a self-righteous act. This is a personal preference, but I would never demand others to work harder for my ideals than I do.

So the question is: What can we ourselves do to make the world a better, less racist, more liveable place for as many people as possible? - Now I think that you gave the answer: "Convince people of the right ideals".

However, I think that we disagree from here on:

I have a degree in law, i am writing my master thesis on a social science topic, I am trained in mediation and I am working in a political environment. During my whole adult life I was interested in the dynamics of human conflicts.

And I came to the conclusion that is quite hard to "convince" people. Just ask yourself if you would let me convince you that your ideals might be questionable. You propably wouldn't make it easy for me. However you might give me one shot, as long as I adress you with earnest respect.

What I want to say: When it comes to "convincing" others, then the hardest part is to make them "listen" to your thoughts. People only listen, if they are emotionally willed to spend their time on you.

Then again: By rioting on the streets, proclaiming absolute truth, calling other people racist, ... all "emotional bridges" are burnt down.

Now this is what I think that is currently happening in the US, also because of the President that you have. Your whole society seems to be more polarized than ever and it is frightening. Personally I think that there is nothing more important for a society than discourse, which should generate new and better ideas. Right now there is no discourse. Both sides stay in their very own bubble and don't even want to talk.

Now what are the consequences? - Well, I'd say that Trump being elected for President some years ago was one. Now the whole BLM chaos might be his only chance to get re-elected even though he failed during the COVID-crisis.

But more than that: I think that both sides are shifting to their (violence-prone) extremes. As soon as the BLM movement turns into exaggerated actionism (e.g. burning town restaurants), there will be a backlash. Dissenting people might shift even more to the right, disgusted by the left. Nothing has served the right better than bizarre SJW-videos on YouTube. As a result tragedies like George Floyd are even more likely to happen again.

So to bring this to a conclusion: If you really want to change the US for the better, then please don't shift to extremes. Every action must be well-measured, especially during emotional times. This is why I do think that it is important to show solidarity with people of colour.

@Lt. Boxy Angelman : Every now and then your statements felt "over-the-top" and then they might do more good than harm. However at the end of the day I want good-humored people like you to be the ones building bridges. Those that make discourse possible.

... I hope that these lines make some sense. Also I just found out that my english skills are way worse than I thought. I still hope that you got the point and I am looking forward to even a short reply!
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

VOTE FOR ANGELMAN
Premium Supporter
Usually I only am on TYM for video game related stuff. I do some trolling and that's it. However this discussion caught my attention.

@Lt. Boxy Angelman : I think that the both of us got very different opinions on quite a few things. Yet I'd really like to exchange some thoughts with you - mostly because I appreciate your positive attitude, but also because of your sincere interest in the whole topic.

So let me begin with a one things that we both agree on and that I consider very important to say:

The whole George Floyd event was just horrible. Every decent human being should ask how we can avoid such tragedy in the future. If this is what BLM stands for, then i am 100% behind the movement.

Now there are two ways to adress the whole problem:

1.) What can I do to change the country for the better?
2.) What can I demand of other people?

Now it is far too easy to name problems so that OTHER people shall solve them. I dislike this attitude as a self-righteous act. This is a personal preference, but I would never demand others to work harder for my ideals than I do.

So the question is: What can we ourselves do to make the world a better, less racist, more liveable place for as many people as possible? - Now I think that you gave the answer: "Convince people of the right ideals".

However, I think that we disagree from here on:

I have a degree in law, i am writing my master thesis on a social science topic, I am trained in mediation and I am working in a political environment. During my whole adult life I was interested in the dynamics of human conflicts.

And I came to the conclusion that is quite hard to "convince" people. Just ask yourself if you would let me convince you that your ideals might be questionable. You propably wouldn't make it easy for me. However you might give me one shot, as long as I adress you with earnest respect.

What I want to say: When it comes to "convincing" others, then the hardest part is to make them "listen" to your thoughts. People only listen, if they are emotionally willed to spend their time on you.

Then again: By rioting on the streets, proclaiming absolute truth, calling other people racist, ... all "emotional bridges" are burnt down.

Now this is what I think that is currently happening in the US, also because of the President that you have. Your whole society seems to be more polarized than ever and it is frightening. Personally I think that there is nothing more important for a society than discourse, which should generate new and better ideas. Right now there is no discourse. Both sides stay in their very own bubble and don't even want to talk.

Now what are the consequences? - Well, I'd say that Trump being elected for President some years ago was one. Now the whole BLM chaos might be his only chance to get re-elected even though he failed during the COVID-crisis.

But more than that: I think that both sides are shifting to their (violence-prone) extremes. As soon as the BLM movement turns into exaggerated actionism (e.g. burning town restaurants), there will be a backlash. Dissenting people might shift even more to the right, disgusted by the left. Nothing has served the right better than bizarre SJW-videos on YouTube. As a result tragedies like George Floyd are even more likely to happen again.

So to bring this to a conclusion: If you really want to change the US for the better, then please don't shift to extremes. Every action must be well-measured, especially during emotional times. This is why I do think that it is important to show solidarity with people of colour.

@Lt. Boxy Angelman : Every now and then your statements felt "over-the-top" and then they might do more good than harm. However at the end of the day I want good-humored people like you to be the ones building bridges. Those that make discourse possible.

... I hope that these lines make some sense. Also I just found out that my english skills are way worse than I thought. I still hope that you got the point and I am looking forward to even a short reply!
This was an awesome read which I agree with uniformly, and I really appreciate you and your input, friend. I will elaborate more on this later after work, but I will say that I can 100% be over the top in defense of subjects like this, but it comes only from a place of passion and personal life experience. My Poppa taught me to always keep an open mind to the other side of the argument, and I try to always do my best to do that.

Just not the side of racists, bigots, hateful charlatans and their enablers. They can all take a long walk off a short pier. But if you've fucked up in the past, and you make the long effort to truly redeem yourself in actions and ways of thinking, that I can abide and keep an open mind to.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
But more than that: I think that both sides are shifting to their (violence-prone) extremes. As soon as the BLM movement turns into exaggerated actionism (e.g. burning town restaurants), there will be a backlash. Dissenting people might shift even more to the right, disgusted by the left. Nothing has served the right better than bizarre SJW-videos on YouTube. As a result tragedies like George Floyd are even more likely to happen again.
This is the same argument people use to discredit entire groups of billions of people as a whole, by saying that, for example the extremists carrying out violence are representative of the entire Muslim religion.

Nearly every social movement in history that has caused lasting and important change has had some elements of conflict and more aggressive protest as well. You cannot characterize a mostly peaceful movement by taking the violent few and twisting things to say that they speak for the majority of protesters. Especially when it's clear that some people are coming in from the outside to try to use this movement for their own individual goals:


And many of them are actually being fought against or stopped by the peaceful majority of protesters:



As well as the fact that some police are turning what should be peaceful moments into incendiary outbursts of violence:


The unfortunate truth overall though, is that throughout history, those in power do not generally 'listen' until the people they are marginalizing people become angry enough to make them do so. In the last month, we've seen the greatest amount of change toward social and institutional growth and fairness that has happened in decades. It's not ideal, but this is often what it takes for voices to be heard.
 

haketh

Noob
As an outsider from another country the issue i see after some research is that both sides cherrypick statistics to suit their agenda.

I don't understand why colour matters?

For example i looked up in good old google what the blm cause is about and this is what I saw.....

4 names of African Americans killed unjustly by police. Then a statistic of people killed by police in 2020 which was around 1100.

Then a statistic from 2015 where there was more black people killed by police then any other race.

But from 2017 to 2020 more white people were killed by police then any other race???

I am confused. What I see in the media is blm protesters rioting robbing looting and burning shit down and if you don't pay attention you would think "the blacks have gone crazy".

But then I see the Wendy's that was burnt down after that black dude was shot and killed was by a white woman???

Can someone explain what is going on??

Legit don't understand and I'm not left or right just looking for some clarity.

In Australia and the area im from i just don't get it.
The woman who burned down the Wendy’s was the murdered mans Girlfriend/Fiancé

Also a heads up y’all, do not buy into a lot of “Outside agitator” stuff. Most of that is propaganda to turn people away from Protest when they get violent. It’s propaganda meant to push people towards ineffective forms of protest.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
The woman who burned down the Wendy’s was the murdered mans Girlfriend/Fiancé

Also a heads up y’all, do not buy into a lot of “Outside agitator” stuff. Most of that is propaganda to turn people away from Protest when they get violent. It’s propaganda meant to push people towards ineffective forms of protest.
There are clearly outside agitators in these protests though, as evidenced by the fact that some of the real protesters have been recognizing people who are not from the neighborhood, or not actually participating in the true protest/message, and stopping them from defacing local stuff (like in the videos above).

Sure, there are also regular violent protesters, too. And there are some people who are opportunists, don't care about the cause and aren't trying to agitate, but just want an excuse to grab some stuff for free from stores:


I think this is one of those cases where both are true -- it's neither 100% one nor the other. Plenty of people have been waiting for an excuse to "f stuff up" and it's even better when someone else's group/cause is going to take the blame for it.
 

Espio

Savage & Sassy
Lead Moderator
Thank you, if people ate some of the many low calorie dense foods that are nutrient dense they have to eat less anyways because the food they eat would be more satisfying.
I just want to touch on this because it's so very important. I read some of your posts talking about unhealthy diets and etc and I just really think that it's far deeper than simply people being toxic and just "screw health".

I work and live in the suburbs, I have a car. Grocery stores are plentiful and everywhere with fresh fruit, water, veggies and all the things you may need to be healthy. Incomes and the tax base is also higher. More resources, more libraries etc.


I worked in Detroit for roughly three years. Detroit has: a large portion of demographics cannot afford cars and thus rely on buses to traverse the city/surround areas and go to work. Grocery stores are few and far between to virtually nonexistent. This causes people to rely on convenience stores like 7/11 etc to get their daily needs and if you have dealt with these types of stores before you know there's not a whole lot of nutrient rich food in them.

Many strong wage jobs have left Detroit. Motor City's namesake has been destroyed.

What this means is you have people who have to overwork minimum wage jobs. They also have to take a bus system that adds more time to their commute. If It takes me 30 minutes to get home from my job it may take an hour and a half to get home to their house or apartment.

You also have people with limited funding and time to supervise their kids and meet their needs. Quality childcare in this country is incredibly expensive for someone making wages even as good as mine and my family's which are middle to upper middle class wages and the ability to save and thrive.

Part of overall health is tied to stress and adequate rest. You have people stressed out barely able to provide for themselves and their families while also dealing with your typical daily life stressors and limited means for social mobility. The more you work, the less time you have to sleep and recover so compound that with poor diet because eating healthy isn't cheap and the lack of easily accessible resources is low.

People's health management is an extremely complex issue. There's so many families of all races that cannot afford the high quality healthy food on top of all of their other expenses. It's not as simple as just not taking care of yourself and eating bad.

The current dynamic system is set up for people regardless of race that are poor to fail and struggle their entire lives. Compounding poverty with racial discrimination and colonized peoples (Native Americans and African Americans) and you have a recipe for a toxic environment.

Also, the food we eat alters and can influence our brain chemistry. If you ever wanna know this go from drinking a good amount of water to drinking mostly pop and sugary drinks and notice how less sharp and clear you are. You might even be jittery. Now imagine a lifetime of built up unhealthy toxic food but that's all you can afford. and all that is easily accessible to you and your family on your meager salary It's no wonder people struggle so much.

Even safe neighborhoods to get exercise or gyms cost money that people don't have. Everything costs money and cities like this also don't tend to have easy to get to YMCA's or whatever.



Everyone in the country doesn't get to live in dignity. I sometimes cry when I think of how people are forced to live. It's not that people are bums always. Sometimes it's because they were never ever set up to win anyway.
 

Cashual

PSN: Cansuela
I generally don't block people over disagreements, in fact in all the years I've been on TYM I don't think I have blocked a single person.

I'm just pointing out that your angry ranting won't get me to engage with this topic again. Call me names, call me a racist so you can get it off your chest, I really don't give a shit anymore.

Getting lectured for not giving preferential treatment to a certain skin colour is absurd, and calling me a racist has literally no meaning when BLM has openly racist individuals like Yusra Khogali among their ranks.

If you wanna keep virtue signaling, go nuts, I'm off to do something productive with my time
“Virtue Signaling”

maybe it’s because you’re not American and you have no sweet clue what’s going on.

we aren’t just arbitrarily treating someone with different skin color better for the sake of it. 60 years ago black people literally couldn’t go to the same schools, use the same water fountains or bathrooms, stores, etc. They were still being hung from trees for misdeeds like not crossing the street when a white woman approached.

I don’t believe I’ve called you racist not once, but I have called you ignorant, and you’ve confirmed that time and time again.

To deny that black people have been disadvantaged and treated like second class citizens in the US is to deny reality. So all of your pseudo intellectual posturing is totally meaningless and disingenuous. And, to further act as if I’m behaving to get imaginary head pats on the internet (on a forum of about 50 active members no less....none of whom know me in real life) is laughable.

You just truly have no idea what you’re talking about.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
I just want to touch on this because it's so very important. I read some of your posts talking about unhealthy diets and etc and I just really think that it's far deeper than simply people being toxic and just "screw health".

I work and live in the suburbs, I have a car. Grocery stores are plentiful and everywhere with fresh fruit, water, veggies and all the things you may need to be healthy. Incomes and the tax base is also higher. More resources, more libraries etc.


I worked in Detroit for roughly three years. Detroit has: a large portion of demographics cannot afford cars and thus rely on buses to traverse the city/surround areas and go to work. Grocery stores are few and far between to virtually nonexistent. This causes people to rely on convenience stores like 7/11 etc to get their daily needs and if you have dealt with these types of stores before you know there's not a whole lot of nutrient rich food in them.

Many strong wage jobs have left Detroit. Motor City's namesake has been destroyed.

What this means is you have people who have to overwork minimum wage jobs. They also have to take a bus system that adds more time to their commute. If It takes me 30 minutes to get home from my job it may take an hour and a half to get home to their house or apartment.

You also have people with limited funding and time to supervise their kids and meet their needs. Quality childcare in this country is incredibly expensive for someone making wages even as good as mine and my family's which are middle to upper middle class wages and the ability to save and thrive.

Part of overall health is tied to stress and adequate rest. You have people stressed out barely able to provide for themselves and their families while also dealing with your typical daily life stressors and limited means for social mobility. The more you work, the less time you have to sleep and recover so compound that with poor diet because eating healthy isn't cheap and the lack of easily accessible resources is low.

People's health management is an extremely complex issue. There's so many families of all races that cannot afford the high quality healthy food on top of all of their other expenses. It's not as simple as just not taking care of yourself and eating bad.

The current dynamic system is set up for people regardless of race that are poor to fail and struggle their entire lives. Compounding poverty with racial discrimination and colonized peoples (Native Americans and African Americans) and you have a recipe for a toxic environment.

Also, the food we eat alters and can influence our brain chemistry. If you ever wanna know this go from drinking a good amount of water to drinking mostly pop and sugary drinks and notice how less sharp and clear you are. You might even be jittery. Now imagine a lifetime of built up unhealthy toxic food but that's all you can afford. and all that is easily accessible to you and your family on your meager salary It's no wonder people struggle so much.

Even safe neighborhoods to get exercise or gyms cost money that people don't have. Everything costs money and cities like this also don't tend to have easy to get to YMCA's or whatever.



Everyone in the country doesn't get to live in dignity. I sometimes cry when I think of how people are forced to live. It's not that people are bums always. Sometimes it's because they were never ever set up to win anyway.
To be clear im sorry if my posts came off as insensitive. I'm not numb or ignorant to any of that, the reservation is the same way. I realize how my tone can sound though, what I'm trying to get across is do your best in whatever form that takes.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
I suppose nothing but public ire, which is part of why I don't think it's good enough to have unregulated and purely privatized healthcare. One might argue that regulations could impact innovation and competition that could cheapen prices which would make those treatments more affordable, and you could also have the idea of malpractice law to encourage healthcare standards. But I don't think that's realistic with the standards we expect.

There's definitely areas where you could see where deregulation could benefit, like maybe the FDA doesn't have the most efficient process of approving drugs and treatments. They are also subject to corruption and corporate influence and maybe by streamlining that process, society would have a net benefit. If that were the case, that's a perfectly reasonable "free market" argument. I imagine in the hordes of pages of law relating to healthcare and health insurance, there's inefficiencies and paragraphs written by corporate lobbyists that don't benefit the process. Always room for improvement, work on those anti airs.

I'm not a big defense guy, but I think recent events have shown that healthcare is a national security issue. So all's I can say for my view is that it's one of the most complex issues and I don't have strong opinions about it. I want people who need care/insurance to not be financially ruined, but I also know that markets can give a lot of value towards scarcity and price.

But I think these cigarette/soda/etc taxes are typically whack
I believe in free markets and personal responsibility, but you have not convinced me. The privatized healthcare system has proven to require regulations. "Public ire" is a reaction that a cancer patient who needs chemotherapy cannot wait for. Ironically, one of Trump's initial campaign promises was that "everyone is going to have health insurance", which turned out to be false. I have excellent health insurance, but I am worried about my fellow Americans who do not.

As an outsider from another country the issue i see after some research is that both sides cherrypick statistics to suit their agenda.

I don't understand why colour matters?

For example i looked up in good old google what the blm cause is about and this is what I saw.....

4 names of African Americans killed unjustly by police. Then a statistic of people killed by police in 2020 which was around 1100.

Then a statistic from 2015 where there was more black people killed by police then any other race.

But from 2017 to 2020 more white people were killed by police then any other race???

I am confused. What I see in the media is blm protesters rioting robbing looting and burning shit down and if you don't pay attention you would think "the blacks have gone crazy".

But then I see the Wendy's that was burnt down after that black dude was shot and killed was by a white woman???

Can someone explain what is going on??

Legit don't understand and I'm not left or right just looking for some clarity.

In Australia and the area im from i just don't get it.
First of all, everyone in American, even the biggest supporters of police such as Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, agrees that George Floyd was the subject of police brutality. Derek Chauvin, the police officer chiefly responsible for George Floyd's death, has been charged with second-degree murder. The subsequent protests, which consist of white as well as black Americans, are a reaction to George Floyd's death. Nobody knows the extent to which crimes such as the looting of local stores and the destruction of private property are related to peaceful protests. The liberal media tend to downplay the crimes while the conservative media overemphasize or exaggerate them.

Everyone in America obviously agrees that black lives matter and the majority of Americans currently support the movement. I should note that the movement has always enjoyed support from the majority of African-Americans, Latinos, and Asians but not Caucasians. An old video has recently emerged in which one of the Black Lives Matter co-founders states that the leadership of the movement consists of "trained Marxists", which will most definitely cause controversy, especially among the conservative media. Another reoccurring criticism of the movement is the fact that most homicides in America are intraracial, meaning that black people kill the majority of black people just like white people kill the majority of white people, yet Black Lives Matter have remained silent on this issue.

You accused both sides of "cherry picking statistics" so I tried my best to exclude my opinions and politics in the two paragraphs above, but I would like to address your question "Why does color matter?" from a personal perspective. Color matters because many liberals, as you can deduce from this thread, believe that America's institutions discriminate against racial minorities, immigrants, gays, and transgender individuals. I can only speak for myself, so I, as an immigrant, believe that America does not discriminate against immigrants. I lived in various European countries throughout my life and I believe that America offers the most opportunities to all people. American society is also the most inclusive from my personal experiences. Some people have a different view so they want to pursue massive wealth distribution policies to rectify America's past sins.
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
Id like to know where some of you fucking live. Here in Tennessee, I find it hard to believe "Most" people support BLM. I see racism both personal and institutionalized everyday. I hear everyday that everything I believe is ignorant leftist bullshit. Im told my beliefs are evil, ya know, equality, respect, loving your neighbor, Im told thts bad.

@M2Dave The wild thing is, white racists hide their racism from non-whites. If you think racism isnt built into the fabric of this country, youre blind, deluded, or in a fortunate area. Hearing you repeat racist propaganda is gut wrenching. Its simple, most crime is intraracial because we used to be fucking segregated very recently, and to this day, black people in general know more black people than white, and white people in general know more white people than black. Go fucking figure. What comment should they have? That crime rates are higher in the poor communities they were raised in because their grandparents were excluded from several American laws and movements that helped families build equity? Fuck outta here.


Youre a boot-licker.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

VOTE FOR ANGELMAN
Premium Supporter
Id like to know where some of you fucking live. Here in Tennessee, I find it hard to believe "Most" people support BLM. I see racism both personal and institutionalized everyday. I hear everyday that everything I believe is ignorant leftist bullshit. Im told my beliefs are evil, ya know, equality, respect, loving your neighbor, Im told thts bad.
Cheers from Chattanooga, from another person who gets told on a regular basis that what he believes is wrong, by people who believe in literal hate-mongering monsters.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

VOTE FOR ANGELMAN
Premium Supporter
Also, there's a new video up from Ernesto Lopez Jr. discussing Chris G's stream the other day, in which he and FChamp went on at length about how "things are going to get worse," and I still don't see how more people getting called out and held accountable for their shitty actions is a bad thing. Here.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
Id like to know where some of you fucking live. Here in Tennessee, I find it hard to believe "Most" people support BLM. I see racism both personal and institutionalized everyday. I hear everyday that everything I believe is ignorant leftist bullshit. Im told my beliefs are evil, ya know, equality, respect, loving your neighbor, Im told thts bad.

@M2Dave The wild thing is, white racists hide their racism from non-whites. If you think racism isnt built into the fabric of this country, youre blind, deluded, or in a fortunate area. Hearing you repeat racist propaganda is gut wrenching. Its simple, most crime is intraracial because we used to be fucking segregated very recently, and to this day, black people in general know more black people than white, and white people in general know more white people than black. Go fucking figure. What comment should they have? That crime rates are higher in the poor communities they were raised in because their grandparents were excluded from several American laws and movements that helped families build equity? Fuck outta here.

Youre a boot-licker.
I have about 25 posts in this thread and I never referred to anyone's beliefs as evil or ignorant. In fact, the only person who is engaging in ad hominem attacks right now is you. Obviously, nobody in this thread is against abstract terms such as love, respect, and equality. People disagree on policies and on complex economic, social, and racial issues.

Entering this thread and presenting the moderate or at times right-leaning perspective, I knew that I was not going to make new friends. People who do not live in America, some of whom have been asking questions, deserve to hear a different point of view, which is prevalent in mainstream America in my opinion. Most Americans do not believe that America is institutionally racist, sexist, xenophobic, and homophobic.
 
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Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
I have about 25 posts in this thread and I never referred to anyone's beliefs as evil or ignorant. In fact, the only person who is engaging in ad hominem attacks right now is you. Obviously, nobody in this thread is against abstract terms such as love, respect, and equality. People disagree on policies and on complex economic, social, and racial issues.

Entering this thread and presenting the moderate or at times right-leaning perspective, I knew that I was not going to make new friends. People who do not live in America, some of whom have been asking questions, deserve to hear a different point of view, which is prevalent in mainstream America in my opinion. Most American do not believe that America is institutionally racist, sexist, xenophobic, and homophobic.
Most or all people do support the positive abstracts, yet when the abstract becomes more defined the problems arise. Most Americans dont agree the country is flawed because we were taught not to. I was taught we werent involved in WW2 until Pearl Harbor, thats false. But it made the country seem heroic. I was taught that George Washington had wooden teeth. In fact, he stole the teeth of slaves and wore them in his mouth like a god damn horror movie character. I was born in the same area code that they killed MLK for wanting everyone to love everyone. Im all for different perspectives, and I have dem and repub friends, what I dont accept is the notion that the foundation of this country is wholesome. Its awful and has NEVER substantially resolved the hardships its put people through.

Rednecks dont want statues of confederates torn down, even though many were built during the civil rights movements to taunt black people. Its actually very plain that racism is in our core. Im sorry that you dont see that and dont see that change must happen. I honestly in my younger years, however childish it sounds, idolized you and others that have been here for years. I dont want to be your enemy, I want to attempt to enlighten you, but I know thats as likely as breathing in space.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Another reoccurring criticism of the movement is the fact that most homicides in America are intraracial, meaning that black people kill the majority of black people just like white people kill the majority of white people, yet Black Lives Matter have remained silent on this issue.
They're not silent on it, it's just irrelevant to their cause. It's like you're crtiticizing someone who is fighting against rape because "most sex is consensual".

Does an anti-sexual-assault organization have to keep putting as a disclaimer "But most of it is consensual!!" or "But more people suffer from other types of crimes!" after all of their points? No. They've chosen to focus on one particular issue, and likely they will connect it to general attitudes about sex and behaviors surrounding it in society.

BLM has picked one particular aspect of racial intolerance and decided to focus on that, as a way of bringing attention to the broader issue of racism on the whole. There's nothing wrong with that.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
They're not silent on it, it's just irrelevant to their cause. It's like you're crtiticizing someone who is fighting against rape because "most sex is consensual".
When I see examples of malevolence and injustice such as the execution of George Floyd by a racist police officer, I will support you and stand by you. I hope that Derek Chauvin is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

BLM has picked one particular aspect of racial intolerance and decided to focus on that, as a way of bringing attention to the broader issue of racism on the whole. There's nothing wrong with that.
Which policies is the movement advocating? What does "defund the police" mean? Does the fact that the founders describe themselves as "trained Marxists" disturb you in any way, shape, or form?

I have looked at the Black Lives Matter official website and, aside from the generic message that racism is bad, I see no specific policy suggestions that can be proposed in Congress.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
What does "defund the police" mean? Does the fact that the founders describe themselves as "trained Marxists" disturb you in any way, shape, or form?
Let me tackle these one at time. "Defund the police" means the following:

Some people have observed that over time:

1) The police have been asked to fill roles which might be better dealt with by other forms of intervention or aid. They are asked to 'deal' with the homeless, with those who are mentally ill, with marital disputes, and everything from minor traffic violations all the way up to mass shooters and terrorist attacks. So "defund" in part is suggesting that some of this money could be better spent on social programs, specialists, and workers who, primarily, are trained to assess and deal with those things.

2) The police have been subject to bloat in the form of money that goes toward being heavily armed.. And that this buildup started from the apparent need to respond to terrorist threats (which is, at least outwardly, a reasonable goal).. But most of the rifles/weapons, armored vehicles, and other military-style equipment are actually being used to respond to and confront regular citizens instead. And they are suggesting that that money could be better spent on things like improving the neighborhoods and better educating people, so that there's less violence to confront. Basically they're saying that pouring money into arms mainly deals with the symptom instead of the root cause.

Personally I think it's a bit confusing as to how it's explained; but when you dig into what it means, whether you agree with it or not, that's what the basic principles are.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
@M2Dave as far as Marxism, I think this is what she meant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Marxism

Which doesn't mean "Karl Marx Marxism", but it just means that they've taken some of the principles about how capitalist society thrives on exploitation of a working class for the disproportionate benefit of a few, and extended them into theories about how we can better serve the majority of people today (rather than using it as a push for Communism like in Marx's day).

Does it bother me? No. Which is not to say that I think the founders of BLM are perfect, infallible, or that I will agree with everything they say. They're human beings and have flaws just like anyone else. But that particular point doesn't worry me much.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
I believe in free markets and personal responsibility, but you have not convinced me. The privatized healthcare system has proven to require regulations. "Public ire" is a reaction that a cancer patient who needs chemotherapy cannot wait for. Ironically, one of Trump's initial campaign promises was that "everyone is going to have health insurance", which turned out to be false. I have excellent health insurance, but I am worried about my fellow Americans who do not.
Well I'm not trying to convince you, you asked me for the free market argument and I tried to give it. Like I said, I don't think health care should be an unregulated industry. But people who would argue for that are few and far between. Usually it's about deregulating some specific area.

I also think there's multiple parts here. We have health care standards and availability of health care, we have insurance and then there's medical research. A free market purist might argue against government involvement in any of this, but may be more open something like government subsidized vaccine research.

While I like to always see the market perspective, it becomes harder to argue against government involvement when we put so much funding into other areas like the military, when it's already an industry with a lot of regulation/redtape and the reality of how important the system is in the face of things like this pandemic.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
Personally I think it's a bit confusing as to how it's explained; but when you dig into what it means, whether you agree with it or not, that's what the basic principles are.
You offered a very good explanation. In fact, if the Black Lives Matter website engaged in less race baiting and more on explanations, they would acquire more support. I watched John Oliver's segment on police and he offered a similar explanation as you did. I agree to the extent that the system asks too much of police officers. The slogan "Defund the Police" is horrendous, though. Most Americans will associate these three words with getting rid of the police, which is why the slogan is not polling favorably. Why not just say police reform?

@M2Dave as far as Marxism, I think this is what she meant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Marxism

Which doesn't mean "Karl Marx Marxism", but it just means that they've taken some of the principles about how capitalist society thrives on exploitation of a working class for the disproportionate benefit of a few, and extended them into theories about how we can better serve the majority of people today (rather than using it as a push for Communism like in Marx's day).

Does it bother me? No. Which is not to say that I think the founders of BLM are perfect, infallible, or that I will agree with everything they say. They're human beings and have flaws just like anyone else. But that particular point doesn't worry me much.
So she believes what democratic-socialist politicians such as Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez have been saying. I disagree with their characterization of capitalism, but why would anyone call themselves "trained Marxists" when almost no person in America has a favorable view of Marxism and when people associate the term with the adversary of the Cold War?
 

jokey77

Character Loyalist
@CrimsonShadow Thank you for your post! It really made me think, yet I want to understand your views better. Thus I'd appreciate if you would explain some of them! Maybe we agree more than it seems anyway...

This is the same argument people use to discredit entire groups of billions of people as a whole, by saying that, for example the extremists carrying out violence are representative of the entire Muslim religion.
I do agree that this can be dangerous. However I'd like to give you even another example: Right now people claim that the acts of Derek Chauvin and J. Alexander Kueng were representative of the police as whole. - Do we agree that this is a problem as well?

If there is something like "systemic" violence rooted in the police system, then I'd say there also is "systemic" violence rooted in rioting movements. I'd consider both (and violence in general) an urgent problem that should be made visible, so that we can deal with it.

Nearly every social movement in history that has caused lasting and important change has had some elements of conflict and more aggressive protest as well. You cannot characterize a mostly peaceful movement by taking the violent few and twisting things to say that they speak for the majority of protesters. Especially when it's clear that some people are coming in from the outside to try to use this movement for their own individual goals:
It seems like you had a very precise idea of what the BLM movement is. I'd really like to understand what the "majority of protesters" have in common. Could you formulate what the "majority of protesters" do stand for: Do they only oppose police violence? Does BLM also stand for specific economic demands? Is universal healthcare even an issue (as in this thread)? Are they against Trump?

You then speak of "institutional growth and fairness". Can you name some concrete actions that caused change for the better (without causing an equal amount of harm)?

The unfortunate truth overall though, is that throughout history, those in power do not generally 'listen' until the people they are marginalizing people become angry enough to make them do so. In the last month, we've seen the greatest amount of change toward social and institutional growth and fairness that has happened in decades. It's not ideal, but this is often what it takes for voices to be heard.
I don't know what you mean by "making them do so". I agree 100% if we are talking about civil disobedience. However I would never justify physical violence of any sort. Besides I'd like to add that angry masses did not always cause a change for the better; in fact they rarely did lately. Looking at the younger past ISIS might be a negative example.

Do we agree that violence is never an appropriate way to show resistance in a democratic society?