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So on the subject of healthcare I just want to share something.

As a Canadian who's not very well versed in finances or even a quarter of the stuff you guys have been talking about, I've had several medical procedures in my life. For example, I've had my appendix removed, and that procedure alone would have uppercut my wallet into the shadow realm if I were an American, and I had no choice in the matter if I wanted to live.

Fast forward to an unrelated situation where I should have died, but didn't because of what I can only interpret as a cosmic coin flip. The cause was 100% out of my control and I quite frankly lucked out big time. The kind of shit where I actually wonder if all the luck in your lifetime is stored in a big invisible tank and I just burned through all of it at once.
If I lived in the US I'd be so incredibly fucked forever that just imagining it makes my stomach turn, and yet there are thousands upon thousands of people who will go through something way less severe that I have and are still going to have their anus widened by the system anyways.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't fully understand even close to everything about USA healthcare so this next statement could be way off, but I'm pretty disturbed at the thought that if I were an American living there with no money and I break my legs, I have to just hold that L.

It defies basic human decency.
 
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Marlow

Premium
Premium Supporter
I'll be the first to admit that I don't fully understand even close to everything about USA healthcare so this next statement could be way off, but I'm pretty disturbed at the thought that if I were an American living there with no money and I break my legs, I have to just hold that L.

Assuming you have a job, most people get health insurance through their job. Although nowadays most insurance plans are high deductible plans. So for example, your plan might have a $5K deductible and $10K out of pocket max. So you'd need to pay for the first $5K of medical expenses, and then after that your insurance would kick in (likely picking up something like 80% of any expense over $5K, up until you hit your $10K out of pocket max, in which case insurance then picks up 100%).

The problem is even having $5K saved up can be hard to do, and can wipe someone out. Especially if it's something that keeps them out of work for awhile, and they don't have good short term or long term disability insurance.
 
Assuming you have a job, most people get health insurance through their job. Although nowadays most insurance plans are high deductible plans. So for example, your plan might have a $5K deductible and $10K out of pocket max. So you'd need to pay for the first $5K of medical expenses, and then after that your insurance would kick in (likely picking up something like 80% of any expense over $5K, up until you hit your $10K out of pocket max, in which case insurance then picks up 100%).

The problem is even having $5K saved up can be hard to do, and can wipe someone out. Especially if it's something that keeps them out of work for awhile, and they don't have good short term or long term disability insurance.
Yeah even having to suddenly drop $5k outta nowhere is a frightening thought.
 

NHDR

Noob
On the topic of medicare and money, the U.S. is a fucked up country in general.

A friend and I like to meet up in Boston every year to watch baseball and catch up (he lives far away from me). He told me how he went to Boston once as part of work, got sick, and had to visit Massachusetts General overnight. Apparently it was thousands and thousands of dollars for that. He's luckily well off but he still felt it.

Don't even get me started on poverty in the U.S. Hit up Youtube and search "Gary Indiana" and you'll something straight out of a Fallout videogame. The economic disparity in the U.S. is something else.
 

ItsYaBoi

Noob
On the topic of medicare and money, the U.S. is a fucked up country in general.

A friend and I like to meet up in Boston every year to watch baseball and catch up (he lives far away from me). He told me how he went to Boston once as part of work, got sick, and had to visit Massachusetts General overnight. Apparently it was thousands and thousands of dollars for that. He's luckily well off but he still felt it.

Don't even get me started on poverty in the U.S. Hit up Youtube and search "Gary Indiana" and you'll something straight out of a Fallout videogame. The economic disparity in the U.S. is something else.
Land of the free they say. Envy of the world they say.

To that, I just fucking LOL.
 

stokedAF

casual kahnage
For posting a watermelon? Okay... I don’t know who this guy is or what else he’s done but that’s a bit extreme.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
For posting a watermelon? Okay... I don’t know who this guy is or what else he’s done but that’s a bit extreme.
The history of the watermelon pictures and how they were used in systematic blackface campaigns to dehumanize and shame African-Americans is extreme. Jim Crow was extreme. Slavery is extreme. Police brutality is extreme.

And the hurt that it causes minorities to see that kind of racist messaging over and over, even from people who are held up as figureheads of whatever community they are in, is extreme.

So yeah..
 

stokedAF

casual kahnage
The history of the watermelon pictures and how they were used in systematic blackface campaigns to dehumanize and shame African-Americans is extreme. Jim Crow was extreme. Slavery is extreme. Police brutality is extreme.

And the hurt that it causes minorities to see that kind of racist messaging over and over, even from people who are held up as figureheads of whatever community they are in, is extreme.

So yeah..
Are you comparing that watermelon picture to slavery and Jim Crow?
 

stokedAF

casual kahnage
Do you really not understand the direct connection?
I just saw “lifetime ban” and clicked to see what atrocity was committed and it was a watermelon lol. I personally wouldn’t compare it to the horrors of slavery and Jim Crow. That’s not really a conversation I want to have but thanks for clarifying the reasoning.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I personally wouldn’t compare it to the horrors of slavery and Jim Crow.
I think you're not getting that Champ replacing "Black" with "watermelon" and posting a picture of a watermelon with it is directly connected to and coming from slavery and Jim Crow. It's not really a "comparison", it just is that way.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Yes. They're called excise taxes. I think they actually make a lot of sense from a "free market" perspective, because if you think about it it helps align the cost of an activity with doing the activity.
I don't know how that could be a free market perspective, it's a tax. And it's not just about long term costs, there's the matter of individual choice.

Personally, I think such taxes(cigarettes, sodas/sugary beverages) often hurt the people that need that money the most. As you go down the income brackets in America, you will find significantly higher proportions of smokers. So you end up taxing more people on the lower end of income, and it's not as if people lost their desire for cigarettes or Pepsi. It's logical that higher prices will lower demand, but it's often dubious that these taxes will affect a positive change for health in the long term.

I can listen to healthcare reform ideas but I also think it's really not the business of the government to be regulating people's behavior on that level. And the logical extension of those policies is taxing things like alcohol, taxing food that is unhealthy and even possibly behavior that is unhealthy.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
On the topic of medicare and money, the U.S. is a fucked up country in general.

A friend and I like to meet up in Boston every year to watch baseball and catch up (he lives far away from me). He told me how he went to Boston once as part of work, got sick, and had to visit Massachusetts General overnight. Apparently it was thousands and thousands of dollars for that. He's luckily well off but he still felt it.

Don't even get me started on poverty in the U.S. Hit up Youtube and search "Gary Indiana" and you'll something straight out of a Fallout videogame. The economic disparity in the U.S. is something else.
Imagine poverty being exclusive to the United States!

This article states that the following are "among the most impoverished."

  1. Those living in female-headed households with no husbands present (31.2%)
  2. Young adults without a high school diploma (31% overall, 43% of blacks)
  3. Those living in a family whose head is unemployed (32.9%)
  4. Minorities (27.6% for blacks)
Even if you accept the premise that America is institutionally racist as black people are disproportionately poor, what does racism have anything to do with a father abandoning his wife and child? By the way, I say father, meaning a father of any race, because the percentage of black children in single-parent households has slightly decreased over the last 20 years, according to these statistics. The percentage for white children is much lower but has remained the same. I would also love to know what dropping out of high school has to do with racism.

As far as America being a "fucked up country in general", most migrants want to move to the United States, according to this article. People do not come to America because the country is xenophobic, racist, misogynistic, homophobic, and transphobic. People precisely come here because the country is not.

I can listen to healthcare reform ideas but I also think it's really not the business of the government to be regulating people's behavior on that level. And the logical extension of those policies is taxing things like alcohol, taxing food that is unhealthy and even possibly behavior that is unhealthy.
Please explain the free market alternative to healthcare. What stops a health insurance company from imposing preexisting conditions when no profits, for example, are made from cancer patient?
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Please explain the free market alternative to healthcare. What stops a health insurance company from imposing preexisting conditions when no profits, for example, are made from cancer patient?
I suppose nothing but public ire, which is part of why I don't think it's good enough to have unregulated and purely privatized healthcare. One might argue that regulations could impact innovation and competition that could cheapen prices which would make those treatments more affordable, and you could also have the idea of malpractice law to encourage healthcare standards. But I don't think that's realistic with the standards we expect.

There's definitely areas where you could see where deregulation could benefit, like maybe the FDA doesn't have the most efficient process of approving drugs and treatments. They are also subject to corruption and corporate influence and maybe by streamlining that process, society would have a net benefit. If that were the case, that's a perfectly reasonable "free market" argument. I imagine in the hordes of pages of law relating to healthcare and health insurance, there's inefficiencies and paragraphs written by corporate lobbyists that don't benefit the process. Always room for improvement, work on those anti airs.

I'm not a big defense guy, but I think recent events have shown that healthcare is a national security issue. So all's I can say for my view is that it's one of the most complex issues and I don't have strong opinions about it. I want people who need care/insurance to not be financially ruined, but I also know that markets can give a lot of value towards scarcity and price.

But I think these cigarette/soda/etc taxes are typically whack
 

NaCl man

Welcome to Akihabara
As an outsider from another country the issue i see after some research is that both sides cherrypick statistics to suit their agenda.

I don't understand why colour matters?

For example i looked up in good old google what the blm cause is about and this is what I saw.....

4 names of African Americans killed unjustly by police. Then a statistic of people killed by police in 2020 which was around 1100.

Then a statistic from 2015 where there was more black people killed by police then any other race.

But from 2017 to 2020 more white people were killed by police then any other race???

I am confused. What I see in the media is blm protesters rioting robbing looting and burning shit down and if you don't pay attention you would think "the blacks have gone crazy".

But then I see the Wendy's that was burnt down after that black dude was shot and killed was by a white woman???

Can someone explain what is going on??

Legit don't understand and I'm not left or right just looking for some clarity.

In Australia and the area im from i just don't get it.
 

Vslayer

Kurses in moose
Moderator
Premium Supporter
So on the subject of healthcare I just want to share something.

As a Canadian who's not very well versed in finances or even a quarter of the stuff you guys have been talking about, I've had several medical procedures in my life. For example, I've had my appendix removed, and that procedure alone would have uppercut my wallet into the shadow realm if I were an American, and I had no choice in the matter if I wanted to live.

Fast forward to an unrelated situation where I should have died, but didn't because of what I can only interpret as a cosmic coin flip. The cause was 100% out of my control and I quite frankly lucked out big time. The kind of shit where I actually wonder if all the luck in your lifetime is stored in a big invisible tank and I just burned through all of it at once.
If I lived in the US I'd be so incredibly fucked forever that just imagining it makes my stomach turn, and yet there are thousands upon thousands of people who will go through something way less severe that I have and are still going to have their anus widened by the system anyways.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't fully understand even close to everything about USA healthcare so this next statement could be way off, but I'm pretty disturbed at the thought that if I were an American living there with no money and I break my legs, I have to just hold that L.

It defies basic human decency.
I'm in the same boat! I'm a Canadian and had to have my appendix removed too and I couldn't fathom how much it would have cost if I was American. And I know we Canadians will cry about wait times and such but when your life is in danger, they don't fuck around. I was cared for really well when I was hospitalized for that.

I think Obama was on the right path, but maybe it just wasn't the right time? Either way, I hope our American friends do get it someday because as you said, it's a basic human right to not have to in depth yourself a freaking literal car loan when you get into an accident you had no control over, or you know, an organ decides to not want to be in your body anymore.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
As an outsider from another country the issue i see after some research is that both sides cherrypick statistics to suit their agenda.

I don't understand why colour matters?

For example i looked up in good old google what the blm cause is about and this is what I saw.....

4 names of African Americans killed unjustly by police. Then a statistic of people killed by police in 2020 which was around 1100.

Then a statistic from 2015 where there was more black people killed by police then any other race.

But from 2017 to 2020 more white people were killed by police then any other race???

I am confused. What I see in the media is blm protesters rioting robbing looting and burning shit down and if you don't pay attention you would think "the blacks have gone crazy".
Ok, let's address the various parts of this.

#1 Let's correct the scope. First of all, this isn't just about killings; it's about police brutality and inconsistency on the whole, which includes all incidents of violence, as well as profiling, etc. And more importantly, it's about prevalent racist mindsets that feed that type of behavior at the core.

#2 I think a lot of people aren't very strong in math. Let's talk about what proportionality means. This was never about the total number of deaths. African-Americans form only 15-16% of the US population. No one is expecting them to have more deaths, total, than the majority. However proportionally, which is what matters, African-Americans are not only killed at a rate that is far higher relative to their population, but are victims of non-lethal brutality incidents at a rate even much higher than that, and are profiled at a rate much higher than that.

#3 The overwhelming majority of protesters have been peaceful. They have also been deeply diverse and multicultural. "What you see in the media" is obviously the most extreme examples of everything. Imagine if we took the criminals in Austrailia and used them to generalize every single Australian. That's what you're doing here with statements like "The blacks", which is a ridiculous generalization of an entire group of tens of millions of people.

#4 You ask why color matters. It matters because for over 300 years in the land we call the USA, it has been ok to enslave, beat, kill, maim, terrorize, and ridicule people based on the color of their skin. And it was ok to prevent people from being able to vote, to own property, to marry who they wished, to visit restaurants and shop at stores, to use public facilities like swimming pools and beaches, to attend decent schools until less than 60 years ago. That's less than one person's average lifespan ago. And even long after it has technically been illegal, things did not instantly change to be equal. 1) People have continued to marginalize people of color in all forms of media and various walks of life, and 2) The effects of those three and half centuries of oppression have left effects that create vast inequality in measurable ways. And people are fed up with it. That is why color matters.