Exploring the neutral game of injustice (Preemptive whiff punishing)

[Protagonist_1]

Hello TYM!

As you can recall, I made a thread about Juicebox breaking down the neutral game of SF4 here. In the vid, he showed how despite characters with short limbs and terrible range pokes, you could still whiff punish by using both reaction and anticipation.

"Reaction is part of it, prediction is the rest of it"

-Juicebox

So, I decided to see if it's possible in injustice. The vid below is just showing some preemptive whiff punishes with batman, using standing 1, d1, b1, b2, d2, and f2 against pokes out of batman's reach (I also use catwoman at one point). This is not a reaction, more or less anticipation that the move is coming (hence the character doing 2 jabs before hand).

This is pretty difficult, and if anyone could actually consistently do this in a real match props to you. I just wanted to know if it was possible or not, and feel it's a good thing to know about (although some of you may already know about it and I apologize). Enjoy the video!

 

[moraelgamed]

I think the Fact that walk speed is slow and that generally people don't convert into combos from pokes but from strings usually makes the use of this some what limited .

 

[ChatterBox]

I think the Fact that walk speed is slow and that generally people don't convert into combos from pokes but from strings usually makes the use of this some what limited .

I agree on the walkspeed affecting the use of this. I think that the players are at fault for not converting pokes into combos, the game system allows that quite well.

 

[ThaShiveGeek]

I agree on the walkspeed affecting the use of this. I think that the players are at fault for not converting pokes into combos, the game system allows that quite well.

Explain more please.

 

[16 Bit]

If you watch me play footsies I do this a lot. If you see me throw out d+1(while inputting claws) and f+1 this is why. Mostly it's to punish predicted dash ins but I also catch whiffed normals.

 

[ChatterBox]

Explain more please.

Sure, I'm not sure how to but I'll try. It starts after watching this video http://testyourmight.com/threads/explanation-of-footsies-by-juicebox.42938/, and then OP practicing it.

The walkspeed - once you decide that someone is going to poke or dash, the amount of time you have to position yourself to whiff punish is drastically smaller because of the slower walk speed (as compared to SFIV or MK9). Thus people call it a legitimate gripe, forgetting that is is a different game and plays its own way. To me that's part of the problem, people aren't adjusting to this, mostly complaining. Not everyone mind you, if you look at the four great weeklies we get to watch (GGA, WNF, The Break, Atlanta Scraps) this still happens a lot (as @GGA 16 Bit mentioned, his matches at GBS are a good place to watch).

Converting pokes into combos - exactly as stated. Since this game system won't let you cancel a whiffed normal/string into a special you can buffer that command to option select in footsies. You're a Harley player and you think someone is going to poke you, back up to the right spot and input D1xxTS1. If you guessed right you get a nice combo or setup of your choosing after, if they didn't you only whiffed a D1 and should be ok. Most, if not all characters can do D1xxSpecial and get some decent damage or setup, or just go for pressure.

EDIT -- also harley has better pokes than D1, please don't yell at me.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

Sure, I'm not sure how to but I'll try. It starts after watching this video http://testyourmight.com/threads/explanation-of-footsies-by-juicebox.42938/, and then OP practicing it.

The walkspeed - once you decide that someone is going to poke or dash, the amount of time you have to position yourself to whiff punish is drastically smaller because of the slower walk speed (as compared to SFIV or MK9). Thus people call it a legitimate gripe, forgetting that is is a different game and plays its own way. To me that's part of the problem, people aren't adjusting to this, mostly complaining. Not everyone mind you, if you look at the four great weeklies we get to watch (GGA, WNF, The Break, Atlanta Scraps) this still happens a lot (as @GGA 16 Bit mentioned, his matches at GBS are a good place to watch).

Converting pokes into combos - exactly as stated. Since this game system won't let you cancel a whiffed normal/string into a special you can buffer that command to option select in footsies. You're a Harley player and you think someone is going to poke you, back up to the right spot and input D1xxTS1. If you guessed right you get a nice combo or setup of your choosing after, if they didn't you only whiffed a D1 and should be ok. Most, if not all characters can do D1xxSpecial and get some decent damage or setup, or just go for pressure.

EDIT -- also harley has better pokes than D1, please don't yell at me.

I agree MOSTLY with what youre saying. Not every character has safe ways to launch for combos off of pokes. nor do they have good pokes. Nightwing, for example, in Escrima he can only d1 into Escrima fury, which if its blocked results in -22. I would have to d12 xx 4 xx ground pound which has a huge gap on block between the d12 and ground pound. Even in staff, d1 into ground pound is interruptable.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

honestly i doubt this will play that big of a role in the neutral but its mostly just the way people are playing the game more than anything. not many people are really playing footsies like that, but its good to know it exists if someone does end up doing that. most characters don't do very well in that range but i can see it's uses. i can see it being useful against superman f2. if this people were doing this against superman a year ago then that woulda been tight lol

 

[ChatterBox]

I agree MOSTLY with what youre saying. Not every character has safe ways to launch for combos off of pokes. nor do they have good pokes. Nightwing, for example, in Escrima he can only d1 into Escrima fury, which if its blocked results in -22. I would have to d12 xx 4 xx ground pound which has a huge gap on block between the d12 and ground pound. Even in staff, d1 into ground pound is interruptable.

We're not talking about block, we're talking about whiff punishing pokes. How do you block D1 from 3 character spaces away? The launcher doesn't come out if you guess wrong and they're not in range for your poke-special combo.

Did you watch the video? On block, you're totally right, most don't. That's just risk/reward though, not footsies. Also, since I'm not a Nightwing player, does D1xxFlip KickMB not combo? Does D12 work? If so, that sucks.

 

[Protagonist_1]

If you watch me play footsies I do this a lot. If you see me throw out d+1(while inputting claws) and f+1 this is why. Mostly it's to punish predicted dash ins but I also catch whiffed normals.

I actually noticed this when you were facing Max's bane on the GGA stream.

 

[Protagonist_1]

Explain more please.

Just what like @Dr Morganstien said, the slow walk speed (accelerated walkspeed) and lack of advancing normals make finding the sweet spot to whiff punish that much difficult as compared to MK or SF4. Many see this as a design flaw (myself included to an extent), because whiff punishing a poke in this game is extremely difficult, dare I say more than in SF4 (some feel the game has no footsies at all = no neutral game). I'm not sure if it was intentional, because usually NRS aren't the type of company that would make a concept like this so difficult in a fighting game.

With that being said, it's also the one thing that appeals to me about the game. I love high execution games and doing combo trials with "Just Frames" despite being a casual gamer, because the overall reward of it. So it's a surprise to me that not only is it possible (although extremely difficult) but requires and extremely high understanding of the "sweet spot" you need to be at to pull this off. Although them adjusting the walk speed would be a huge help toward opening the spacing game in injustice.. This wouldn't make it like SF4, unless making footsies easier makes a game like SF4 lol. Just my 2 cents.

 

[InFlames]

I do this witth Ares' d1 into Sword. If it hits I get a combo. The only problem is that high attacks tend to go over d1 so against those I use standing 1.

Edit: It's not that dificult once you learn the range of your enemy's attacks.

 

[Protagonist_1]

I agree MOSTLY with what youre saying. Not every character has safe ways to launch for combos off of pokes. nor do they have good pokes. Nightwing, for example, in Escrima he can only d1 into Escrima fury, which if its blocked results in -22. I would have to d12 xx 4 xx ground pound which has a huge gap on block between the d12 and ground pound. Even in staff, d1 into ground pound is interruptable.

I see what your saying although doing this is actually safe.

For example at 3:09 you'll notice I whiff punished Bane's d1 with batman's b1 grapple. I buffered batman's b1 into grapple just in case the b1 connected from that range. From that range I'm at, I'm either going to get a b1, or get a whiff punish b1 into grapple. The grapple cannot be blocked. It's an option select that's actually described in Juicebox's footsie guide for SF4. I just wanted to see if the same was possible in injustice.

The only unsafe thing about it is if the opponent walks forward, and does nothing, leaving you wide open for a whiff punish (which rarely happens in injustice), I mistime the poke and we trade, or the player jumps in on you and your a sitting duck (the more likely thing to happen).

This unfortunately is extremely difficult to do I don't expect to see this level of whiff punishing consistently in the games lifespan any time soon. I'm just glad to know this is possible.

Also to add, batman's d1 has pretty short range, and yet I was still managing to beat out pokes with much longer range. Even an uppercut can be used as a whiff punish to a poke (5:55 of the vid). Not saying it's viable in a match, but it's possible.