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Strategy Ermac Frame Data

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
Updated to include duration and cancel advantages... took forever. I noticed enhanced teleport recovers faster than the regular one which I found interesting.
You sir are a god. I have one favor to ask. Could you check again plz if d3 is indeed -12f on block ? Cause i m having some doubts about that.
 

Somberness

Lights
You sir are a god. I have one favor to ask. Could you check again plz if d3 is indeed -12f on block ? Cause i m having some doubts about that.
Yeah, it's actually -11 and not 12, and he recovers after 24 frames. I remembering noticing it but forgot about it because this took so long to do. :(
 

unVINCEable

As you think, so shall you become. -Bruce Lee-
So I'm still new to MK basically, but I want to say that I think Ermac is a counter action type character. An Anti-Zoner as I like to say, I wait for the opponent to make a move then just come in with a push or Ex push. Or I use telelift and hit with an Ex airblast to get some quick damage. I also like to use Tele-lift then go into f114, sometimes hard to link but really fun if you can. If i use b114 by itself sometimes i can get the 4 to hit if the first part is blocked.
 

zaf

professor
Somberness, can you also please check the start up of force push?

You have this at 14th frame
you also have force lift at 13
there are some moves and specials that tkp can punish but tks can not.
i feel its either the numbers are wrong, or tkp behaves weirdly
tkp also looks faster then 14 frames.

also, what does this mean exactly. Cancel Advantage (block)
i know u wrote a small description, but can you further explain lol, srry
 

Somberness

Lights
It's 14. The reason you have trouble punishing things with lift could be because there is a bug that will add frames before the startup of a move if you input it while still in recovery. You can input specials up to 7 frames before you recover from something. I know it is a big problem for moves that end with down, but it could be a annoying problem for moves with down in them as well.

Cancel advantage is the difference between the first frame of the next normal in a chain/special that you cancel into and the frame where your opponent recovers.
 

zaf

professor
Thanks a lot for getting back to me so soon.

i dont like how d3 is negative on hit, what kinda move works like this >_>
 

zaf

professor
Somberness

can you look into one more thing please?

33 on block you have as -11
however i am always able to block after this move.
can you check if this is right?
i mean, i dont seem to be poked after this
and i am always poked after a f4 which is -9 on block
 

kilnkilagn

Kill-n-Kill Again
I want to understand what I'm reading, so help me out here:

Execution - frame number when a move becomes active, startup is execution number minus 1.
1 - 10
This means it takes 10 frames (1/6 of a second) from the time I press "1" till the time I'm able to move or execute another attack?

Block Advantage - number of frames that show how fast you and your opponent recover after the move is blocked.
1 - 0
1,2 - -7
When you say "...how fast you and your opponent recover..." I expect two numbers: one being my recovery frames and one being his. But there's only one number. Does this mean that after a "1" we both have one frame until we can attack again? If I use "1,2" then I have to wait 7 frames before I can attack again, or he has seven frames?

Hit Advantage - number of frames that show how fast you and your opponent recover after the move hits. If there is two numbers, the second one is if your opponent tech rolls.
1 - 0
1,2 - 0
1,2,1 - +6
This means after a "1,2,1" hits, then I have six frames of advantage? Then where's the number for my opponent? The definition says "...# of frames you AND opponent recover...", so we both have six frames?

Duration - number of frames it takes to recover after using a move.
1 - 26
1,2 - 49
1,2,1 - 72
A blocked move, or just a move out in the open?

Cancel Advantage (block) - number of frames that show how fast you and your opponent recover after the move is cancelled and is blocked.
1 - +19
1,2 - +14
1,2,1 - +26
By cancel I assume you mean "into a special" to cut short the last move's recovery frames. Is that correct? If so, then when I execute a "1,2,1,db2" and it's blocked, I have 26 frames to move or attack before he can do anything?

Cancel Advantage (hit) - number of frames that show how fast you and your opponent recover after the move is cancelled and lands. If there is two numbers, the second one is if your opponent tech rolls.
1,2,1 - +30
D+1 (vs crouch) - +13
D+3 - +12
Okay, I do a "1,2,1,db2" that lands, I now have 30 frames with which I can move before he can do anything? And when I hit with a "d1" I've got 13 frames before he can do anything?

Understand, I'm not trying to be dense, but there's something confusing me by wording it "...you and your opponent..." To me it sounds like the number shown applies to both of us, but I don't think that's the way to interpret it.
 

SunnyD

24 Low Hat!
kilnkilagn
Execution is the number of frames it takes between when you hit the button and when the opponent is hit. If you tap 2, 10 frames later your opponent will get hit by a 2.

Block advantage is the amount of frames you recover compared to your opponent. If your block advantage is -7, then it takes 7 more frames for you to recover than it does for your opponent to recovery. This means that your opponent can do whatever he wants for 7 frames but you have to finish recovering.

Hit advantage is the same but on hit.

Duration is the recovery on whiff.

Cancel advantage on block is how many extra frames you get between moves. If i input 121, i have 26 safe frames afterwards in which a special can execute. If the execution frames are larger than the cancel advantage, then there is a hole in your string that can be poked or parried. Keep in mind that block and hit advantage applies in this as well.

Cancel advantage on hit is the same but on hit. duh lol
 

kilnkilagn

Kill-n-Kill Again
kilnkilagn
Execution is the number of frames it takes between when you hit the button and when the opponent is hit. If you tap 2, 10 frames later your opponent will get hit by a 2.
Okay, "1" has 10 frames. This means that it's 10 frames before the 1 hits.
Then "1,2" has 11 frames. Does that mean the 2 comes out 11 frames after the 1? So the 2 in "1,2" doesn't connect until 21 frames after the input?

Block advantage is the amount of frames you recover compared to your opponent. If your block advantage is -7, then it takes 7 more frames for you to recover than it does for your opponent to recovery. This means that your opponent can do whatever he wants for 7 frames but you have to finish recovering.
So the lower the number, the faster the recovery, i.e., the safer the attack on block. But how many frames does it take for a block to recover? Meaning, if I use Ermac to execute a "1" on every fighter in the game, are they all going to be able to recover from block in the same amount of time? Does everyone's block recover the same in general?

Hit advantage is the same but on hit.
So a "1" that connects has no advantage over a "1" that is blocked since they both have zero frames?
 

SunnyD

24 Low Hat!
Okay, "1" has 10 frames. This means that it's 10 frames before the 1 hits.
Then "1,2" has 11 frames. Does that mean the 2 comes out 11 frames after the 1? So the 2 in "1,2" doesn't connect until 21 frames after the input?
Yes, exactly. This is where most people make a mistake, im glad that you caught on to that.

So the lower the number, the faster the recovery, i.e., the safer the attack on block. But how many frames does it take for a block to recover? Meaning, if I use Ermac to execute a "1" on every fighter in the game, are they all going to be able to recover from block in the same amount of time? Does everyone's block recover the same in general?
No, everyone recovers differently, but that doesnt matter. What does matter is how your recovery compares to your opponents. Which is what block advantage is.

So a "1" that connects has no advantage over a "1" that is blocked since they both have zero frames?
Yep.
 

kilnkilagn

Kill-n-Kill Again
No, everyone recovers differently, but that doesnt matter. What does matter is how your recovery compares to your opponents. Which is what block advantage is.
So, for example, Smoke may recover from a "1,2,1" string in a different amount of frames than say Reptile or Sonya will? The game has that kind of variability built into it? And if so, then I want to see frame data on everyone's block recovery per attack. I want to know how many frames it takes Smoke to recover from every one of Ermac's attacks, and how many frames it takes for him to recover from every one of Shang Tsung's attacks, and every one of Reptile's attacks, and Raiden's, and Jax's, and so on and so on . . . A cross reference of everyone's attacks on everyone else.

Also, if I'm understanding you, then this frame data is character specific to whoever it was tested on, yes?
 

SunnyD

24 Low Hat!
So, for example, Smoke may recover from a "1,2,1" string in a different amount of frames than say Reptile or Sonya will? The game has that kind of variability built into it? And if so, then I want to see frame data on everyone's block recovery per attack. I want to know how many frames it takes Smoke to recover from every one of Ermac's attacks, and how many frames it takes for him to recover from every one of Shang Tsung's attacks, and every one of Reptile's attacks, and Raiden's, and Jax's, and so on and so on . . . A cross reference of everyone's attacks on everyone else.

Also, if I'm understanding you, then this frame data is character specific to whoever it was tested on, yes?
No you misunderstand me. Everybody recovers the same from a single move, but different moves have different recoveries.

Example: 312 on hit has a lot of recovery for the opponent. Smoke, Mileena, Sheeva, all recover at the same time after a hit 312. Lets just say after 60 frames. A second. You recover after 19 frames, because 312 gives 41+ frames of hit advantage.

BUT, 22 does not have as much recovery time. All characters recover the same, but the total recovery time is different. Lets just say 20 frames. You recover after 18 frames, since you are at +2 after a hit 22. The total recovery for you both is different as per string, but all characters experience the same recovery time for a particular string.
 

KH_Captain

Nightwolf wannabe
B3 4 has the same limitation 3 1 does: If the first hit is blocked, the second hit can be ducked and punished by uppercuts.
I used to think this was good but it's worse than just uppercuts characters that have good d1 juggles blow this up. like another ermaac d1 lift into full combo. or sindel d1 eh scream into combo. or smoke d1 smokebomb into devastating combo. Since ermac is also airborne during the 4 it really exposes him to damage. It's not something you want to use a lot other for corner combos. like b114 lift, uppercut, b34, b3 tkpush or xray.
 

KH_Captain

Nightwolf wannabe
what is the frame data when ermac is breaks airborne cuz it seems like he has a huge frame advantage
 

Somberness

Lights
what is the frame data when ermac is breaks airborne cuz it seems like he has a huge frame advantage
All characters air breakers are the same, or at least very similar. Around +32, give or take how high each character is. You want to be low as possible to land faster. If the opponent doesn't tech roll, you can combo them with lift until they start to get up and it can't be blocked. However, every breaker combo can be prevented by doing an immediate tech roll. At least, I think so, as I can't find a height where I can recover fast enough to be able to get them before they move.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
All characters air breakers are the same, or at least very similar. Around +32, give or take how high each character is. You want to be low as possible to land faster. If the opponent doesn't tech roll, you can combo them with lift until they start to get up and it can't be blocked. However, every breaker combo can be prevented by doing an immediate tech roll. At least, I think so, as I can't find a height where I can recover fast enough to be able to get them before they move.
Even if they dont tech roll as long as they are holding block when they are on the ground, they will be able to block the lift. Just stating that out so that anyone wont think that a lift is guaranteed after an air breaker. If the opponent is holding block when he is grounded, lift will be blocked.
 

Somberness

Lights
Even if they dont tech roll as long as they are holding block when they are on the ground, they will be able to block the lift. Just stating that out so that anyone wont think that a lift is guaranteed after an air breaker. If the opponent is holding block when he is grounding lift will be blocked.
Ah ok, it's probably just the cpu being dumb. At least it's better than it being another bug.
 

KH_Captain

Nightwolf wannabe
Even if they dont tech roll as long as they are holding block when they are on the ground, they will be able to block the lift. Just stating that out so that anyone wont think that a lift is guaranteed after an air breaker. If the opponent is holding block when he is grounded, lift will be blocked.
it's still a good thing to mix in ermacs game every so often. If you are reading how opponent likes to get up you could probably get 1 free combo per match. though some people just like to tech roll every time i noticed some dont