General/Other - Liu Kang [EO Beta] Shaolin Dragon - Rising Concerns Regarding Beta Changes

[TopTierHarley]

Whats the point in changing f213 fbrc less plus but still make it jail? Just so we have 1 true block string? Pointless nerf and annoying for the liu kang community

Dvorah also has one true block string and she's fine

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

Dvorah also has one true block string and she's fine

Yeh just means boring pressure is all and pretty pointless nerf

 

[TopTierHarley]

Yeh just means boring pressure is all and pretty pointless nerf

it's fine

 

[ScorpionMaster]

Dear NRS, you created Variations system for people to not counter pick other characters, but for people to counter pick their favorite character with a different fighting style that might change the course of battle. The idea is great on the paper, I don't want to change Liu Kang to anyone but himself with a different kung-fu.

What we see currently in the recent Beta update, you are concentrating only on hurting Dragon's Fire, without thinking how universal changes to his moves might affect his other variations. And believe me, there are people who love to play as Dualist and want to win with this variation on tournaments.

You made F213 less plus for FBRC to be even higher execution technique so that we started breaking our fingers. Ok, thank you for still letting it jail at least.

But what did you gave to other variations in return to make up for this nerf bringing massive weakenesses to Dualist and Flame Fist? I thought word BALANCE means things getting equal compensation in return for loosing something.

As the beginning, you could have made DD1 faster for both of these variations so that pressure with F213 was still legit and dangerous.

Does NRS thinks we don't want to play anything but Dragon's Fire?

Thank you for buffing Dualist though. The remaining Charge after hit was huge improvement for this variation. But with nerf of F213 even further than before you are hurting Dualist's pressure and play style a lot. Maybe you could entirely remove pushback on EX Solar Flame then at least?

Nerfing MB Flying Kick to +1 was actually enough for Dragon's Fire, seriously. You shouldn't have touched F213 anymore.

 

[The_Tile]

Dvorah also has one true block string and she's fine

D'vorah also has launching 50/50s and her blockstrings come off arguably one of the best footsie tools in the game. I get your point but it's not that black and white.

Regardless, I was playing him this morning and didn't even notice the changes. Because of the new net code you're actually able to consistently jail now so who cares if they shame a frame or two off the adv. DF will remain top tier, especially because Quan, Lao and probably the other top tiers will be nerfed.

It sucks for FF and Dualist if this is true, but I'm sure theyll be sorted out in due time.

 

[Kaneki]

So we go from +13 to +3.........ggs. It was great that they made mb +1 so people could poke out of pressure but touching F213 without being concern on what it could to his other variations is a big balance flaw in my opinion. I honestly really wanted to try out Dualist and play FF again but NRS doing do much injustice to Liu is preventing that from happening. At least he could still jail, b12 breaks armor, 10 frame low, and some zoning . I see mbrc being a thing lolz

SFV Hello Boi

 

[the.hamburglar]

Lol

Now that Liu Kang is starting to see some normalizations, what's the rationale for keeping f213 FBC x3 a true blockstring? Even if it wasn't, and could only be armored through, can't Liu Kang still break armor with b12?
Why, guys? Why does a character get to throw in 3 strings to get enough meter and be at +1 to re-loop it when he touches you, when he even has the best armor-breaking move, and a 10 frame low, Why?

I'm guessing you don't know that you don't build meter after the first fbrc so all you are doing is chip damage, also literally a 6 frame poke would be the pressure after the kick meter burned so please know what you are talking about first as you sound ignorant as fuck.

 

[TopTierHarley]

D'vorah also has launching 50/50s and her blockstrings come off arguably one of the best footsie tools in the game. I get your point but it's not that black and white.

Regardless, I was playing him this morning and didn't even notice the changes. Because of the new net code you're actually able to consistently jail now so who cares if they shame a frame or two off the adv. DF will remain top tier, especially because Quan, Lao and probably the other top tiers will be nerfed.

It sucks for FF and Dualist if this is true, but I'm sure theyll be sorted out in due time.

She doesn't have launching 50/50s puddle and f3 are irrelevant.

 

[Black Chapters]

Whats the point in changing f213 fbrc less plus but still make it jail? Just so we have 1 true block string? Pointless nerf and annoying for the liu kang community

they still listening to the kids who can't deal with things

 

[dennycascade]

On 8/31/15
"Stance Switch recovery decreased by 6 frames"

On 9/1/15
"JK, just 3 frames"

-Paulo Garcia

I don't think this actually happened though?

 

[The_Tile]

She doesn't have launching 50/50s puddle and f3 are irrelevant.

For real? A D'vorah player who doesn't know she can cancel both her 50/50s in SQ into her launching string?

Didn't think so, stop trying to be a smart ass.

 

[Frenzy]

I really hope that the recovery of flame fist's shaolin flame (ex and regular) and dualist's stance switch gets reduced to compensate for this nerf.

 

[Frenzy]

Dualist was already bad, but the main thing that made it somewhat usable has been nerfed harshly.

 

[Geoffmeister]

Lol

I'm guessing you don't know that you don't build meter after the first fbrc so all you are doing is chip damage, also literally a 6 frame poke would be the pressure after the kick meter burned so please know what you are talking about first as you sound ignorant as fuck.

A 6 frame poke can be baited, whiff punished, armored whatever, it can even be missed by a mere 2 frames and it does abysmal damage. You think taking pokes as your biggest risk is fine?

edit: and no, I made that post before it was on posted on TYM, seems adequate enough
edit 2: it's not

 

[TopTierHarley]

For real? A D'vorah player who doesn't know she can cancel both her 50/50s in SQ into her launching string?

Didn't think so, stop trying to be a smart ass.

212 launches

 

[omooba]

Now that Liu Kang is starting to see some normalizations, what's the rationale for keeping f213 FBC x3 a true blockstring? Even if it wasn't, and could only be armored through, can't Liu Kang still break armor with b12?
Why, guys? Why does a character get to throw in 3 strings to get enough meter and be at +1 to re-loop it when he touches you, when he even has the best armor-breaking move, and a 10 frame low, Why?

he doesn't build meter with it anymore you know that right?
why does a character get 40+ true 50/50, 35+ projectile and 35+ 50/50 vortex all midscreen
liu was fine after the plus 1 nerf

 

[Geoffmeister]

he doesn't build meter with it anymore you know that right?
why does a character get 40+ true 50/50, 35+ projectile and 35+ 50/50 vortex all midscreen
liu was fine after the plus 1 nerf

Oh, we comparing Ermac with Liu Kang?

First off.. yes it's been pointed out to me that he doesn't build meter, unfortunately, there are some people on TYM that test some of what they read and lo and behold, he stills gets meter. It's only when it's 100% gapless that he doesn't build the bar, which doesn't matter because even if there's a gap in there (missing execution or intentional) you can still stuff anything the opposing character is trying to do, be it pokes, backdashes, jumps.. Liu Kang does not give a fuck.

Secondly, not building meter but still doing chip%, wall carry and relooping pressure into a situation where only a poke (or Shinnoks f4) can stop it is still an insane advantage.

Thirdly, having plus strings that require NO fbc's gives him even more options, so even without the sacred pressure he's capable of now he would STILL be a strong character.

Now for Ermac, MoS loses full/midscreen pressure for a few seconds after a Soul Ball, so my goodness, you might have to block it first, I know it's not common for Liu players but I know you have it in you.
His meterless damage, I've mentioned this more than once: I would rather have MoS do less damage if it meant he was 2-3 frames safer on some moves, damage does not matter if you can't open your opponent up or risk getting punished for doing one string into special, which would be -14 at best.
His 50/50 is a guessing game, while I'm not that keen on mixups that you can't fuzzy, Ermacs damage potential after a mixup is -17 on block at best, it's more than obviously clear by this point that many characters have instant mixups, and some launch or are safe or even plus, I'm not saying Ermac should have this, I'm saying Ermac is the WORST 50/50 character in the game, for this reason.

I know I shouldn't even make this comparison because they're two different characters playing their own different playstyle, so it's natural Liu has access to stuff Ermac doesn't and vice versa, but when people are defending being +14!! after FBc which is reloopable with or without resources into +2 (given all the tools he already has) it's time to reevaluate what some of this community thinks is fair.

Until then, please keep thinking this "meter-gain-nerf" isn't as redundant as it gets, I wouldn't be surprised if Paulo put that in the beta just to see how desperate Liu Kang players are to finding an excuse for this bullshit.
(oh, and no.. Liu shouldn't have a faster poke so he won't get frametrapped against himself, neither did Quan)

 

[omooba]

Oh, we comparing Ermac with Liu Kang?

First off.. yes it's been pointed out to me that he doesn't build meter, unfortunately, there are some people on TYM that test some of what they read and lo and behold, he stills gets meter. It's only when it's 100% gapless that he doesn't build the bar, which doesn't matter because even if there's a gap in there (missing execution or intentional) you can still stuff anything the opposing character is trying to do, be it pokes, backdashes, jumps.. Liu Kang does not give a fuck.

Secondly, not building meter but still doing chip%, wall carry and relooping pressure into a situation where only a poke (or Shinnoks f4) can stop it is still an insane advantage.

Thirdly, having plus strings that require NO fbc's gives him even more options, so even without the sacred pressure he's capable of now he would STILL be a strong character.

Now for Ermac, MoS loses full/midscreen pressure for a few seconds after a Soul Ball, so my goodness, you might have to block it first, I know it's not common for Liu players but I know you have it in you.
His meterless damage, I've mentioned this more than once: I would rather have MoS do less damage if it meant he was 2-3 frames safer on some moves, damage does not matter if you can't open your opponent up or risk getting punished for doing one string into special, which would be -14 at best.
His 50/50 is a guessing game, while I'm not that keen on mixups that you can't fuzzy, Ermacs damage potential after a mixup is -17 on block at best, it's more than obviously clear by this point that many characters have instant mixups, and some launch or are safe or even plus, I'm not saying Ermac should have this, I'm saying Ermac is the WORST 50/50 character in the game, for this reason.

I know I shouldn't even make this comparison because they're two different characters playing their own different playstyle, so it's natural Liu has access to stuff Ermac doesn't and vice versa, but when people are defending being +14!! after FBc which is reloopable with or without resources into +2 (given all the tools he already has) it's time to reevaluate the authenticity of what some of this community thinks is fair.

Until then, please keep thinking this "meter-gain-nerf" isn't as redundant as it gets, I wouldn't be surprised if Paulo put that in the beta just to see how desperate Liu Kang players are to finding an excuse for this bullshit.
(oh, and no.. Liu shouldn't have a faster poke so he won't get frametrapped against himself, neither did Quan)

before we continue i just wanna say i used to be a fan
aight so lets look at both characters played at their highest possible level shall we
liu kang
will never open you up. what he had was staggers into grabs into pressure. they made it so since he has no 50/50's you have to legit respect his pressure. and i say he will never open you up because (from what i've heard) teching grabs is easier.
now to ermac.
50/50's will always be better than pressure because it doesn't matter how good you are, you can't say you won't loose. look at foxy. i'll edit when i remember the name of the tournament but quite recently he lost to a sonya at a tournament. sonya considered what a- or b. and foxy is like damn near jesus level. you also bring up armor not meaning shit against liu and i'm like ermac has a vortex. 1 spend a bar for more pressure which isn't guaranteed you spend a bar for another 35%+ into 50/50 reset.

i think liu is nasty if you let him play his game but i also don't think it's that hard to stop him from playing his game. you keep suing the word loop and i'm like aight wait it's plus 1 you can do other stuff other than poke you just have to make a read and the read is literally will he f1 or nah. if he doesn't. his moves are slow. ermac's 2 probably beats whatever he presses, also back dash. and poke beats f1. also f1 is negative and when he run-cancels it's neutral. same with b1 (armor breaker). see options. it's nasty but you have options.

now what am i supposed to do about vortex? guess right? lol
they're both nasty i just feel lie you're over stating how good he is

 

[Geoffmeister]

before we continue i just wanna say i used to be a fan
aight so lets look at both characters played at their highest possible level shall we
liu kang
will never open you up. what he had was staggers into grabs into pressure. they made it so since he has no 50/50's you have to legit respect his pressure. and i say he will never open you up because (from what i've heard) teching grabs is easier.
now to ermac.
50/50's will always be better than pressure because it doesn't matter how good you are, you can't say you won't loose. look at foxy. i'll edit when i remember the name of the tournament but quite recently he lost to a sonya at a tournament. sonya considered what a- or b. and foxy is like damn near jesus level. you also bring up armor not meaning shit against liu and i'm like ermac has a vortex. 1 spend a bar for more pressure which isn't guaranteed you spend a bar for another 35%+ into 50/50 reset.

i think liu is nasty if you let him play his game but i also don't think it's that hard to stop him from playing his game. you keep suing the word loop and i'm like aight wait it's plus 1 you can do other stuff other than poke you just have to make a read and the read is literally will he f1 or nah. if he doesn't. his moves are slow. ermac's 2 probably beats whatever he presses, also back dash. and poke beats f1. also f1 is negative and when he run-cancels it's neutral. same with b1 (armor breaker). see options. it's nasty but you have options.

now what am i supposed to do about vortex? guess right? lol
they're both nasty i just feel lie you're over stating how good he is

Look man, being called ignorant here for asking opinions on why Liu Kang's most risky situation is being hit by a poke and the next response I get thrown rocks and the excuse of a nerf that might as well not exist, you might not expect the nicest reply y'know?

I don't see the point discussing the potential of "always guessing right in a 50/50" versus "reloopable gapless pressure, scary moment at +1!", isn't it obvious one comes with risk the other does not? I wasn't asking for MU advice, I know my options, or lack thereof.

These justifications are ridiculous, and I'm not just addressing you, I'm addressing this board.

 

[omooba]

Look man, being called ignorant here for asking opinions on why Liu Kang's most risky situation is being hit by a poke and the next response I get thrown rocks and the excuse of a nerf that might as well not exist, you might not expect the nicest reply y'know?

I don't see the point discussing the potential of "always guessing right in a 50/50" versus "reloopable gapless pressure, scary moment at +1!", isn't it obvious one comes with risk the other does not? I wasn't asking for MU advice, I know my options, or lack thereof.

These justifications are ridiculous, and I'm not just addressing you, I'm addressing this board.

if you honestly think that having safe pressure is extremely ridiculous (even though the looping you keep mentioning isn't close to being guaranteed) when compared to 50/50s whose loops are guaranteed then we just disagree fundamentally.
on a side not all these anti liu kang people on this forum including you have been pro the f213 nerfs that made his execution harder even though all this nasty shit ermac does is can be learnt in an hour tops

 

[Geoffmeister]

if you honestly think that having safe pressure is extremely ridiculous (even though the looping you keep mentioning isn't close to being guaranteed) when compared to 50/50s whose loops are guaranteed then we just disagree fundamentally.
on a side not all these anti liu kang people on this forum including you have been pro the f213 nerfs that made his execution harder even though all this nasty shit ermac does is can be learnt in an hour tops

Well.. 50/50 loops weren't guaranteed until beta, Ermac had to use meter for that, which doesn't really matter, -17 stays -17.

I don't think safe pressure is ridiculous, I think being + as the worst situation you could be in, while having tools like 9 frame armor breaking mids or a 9 frame low alternative after you've done 4 jailing strings is a too advantageous. Sure 50/50's are more likely to open someone up, but when you as the receiver of this pressure only have a 1-3 frame window just to poke and even when you make the right read/reaction you still risk getting stuffed I can imagine why even the Liu Kang players themselves want a faster poke.

IMO the only variation that should be allowed this type of jailing pressure is Stunt Double, because there is a time window until he can get his shadows out again... great advantage like that should come with a price, this reflects in Sonya Demolition but with 50/50's. Liu Kang is like the Quan Chi of pressure, he has too much going for him where it's not even necessary.

Also, the "anti-Liu Kang people" have been misinformed by these nerfs.. he still jails.. and where he doesn't jail he's still plus, still gets meter, still stuffs your options.. So ... Stop it.