Tech Ending Combos in b2

[Tony at Home]

Lex players use different combo enders depending where we want the enemy to land, u3, 22, 11 etc.

But I feel b2 is horribly under-utilized.

***The standard combo is something like b13,MB grav pull, b3, j2, [ender+setup]***

***The setup I am using here is (b13/112/F2),MB grav pull, b3, j2,b2 xx grav mine (normal distance)***


ADVANTAGES OF ENDING IN B2

1) MUCH more hit advantage than 22 as a combo ender

(To prove this: try going to practice and doing 22xxMB probes at the end, with Deathstroke AI set to roll and wakeup with quick fire. Then try the same with b2xxMB probes. 22XxMB probes gets stuffed, while Lex has a ton of time to block after b2xxMBprobe ender.)

2) Keeps you right on top of the enemy. As opposed to other setups, they are ON the mine if they tech roll, instead of behind it.




DISADVANTAGES OF ENDING IN B2

1) Less damage from the initial setup combo- you get more from ending with a j3 into 22 instead.

2) In some matchups, it is more ideal for Lex to put more distance between him and the enemy, instead of keeping them extremely close with b2 (example: Grundy)





SETUP OF THE EXPERIMENT


Try going to practice mode and ending with b2 and normal-distance grav mine. The practice dummy I used was Deathstroke, so results may vary with different character wakeups. With b2xx Grav mine, the opponent is put in a VERY compromising situation.

There are 4 different categories of reactions an opponent can make to a single setup based on the combination of whether or not the opponent does a tech roll and whether or not the opponent does a wake-up: here is how b2xxGrav Mine as a combo ender is effective against all of them. The situations assume Lex still has at least 1 bar of meter remaining. The wake-up attacks used where Deathstroke's Sword-Flip, Sword-Spin,Quick-Shots, and Assault Rifle.

SITUATION 1: TECH ROLL AND WAKE-UP
If they tech roll, they are directly on top of the mine. Any projectile wakeup will get them caught in the mine, any horizontal wakeup can either be punished, OR Lex can push block them into the mine; after which, he can dash up and b3 into the entire setup AGAIN.

SITUATION 2: TECH ROLL AND BLOCKING
If they tech roll but do not wake-up, they will have to block a mine and then allow for a Lex jump-in to 50/50. Remember that b2 has MUCH better advantage than 22, which is why when you do a j3 immediately after, it will be almost EXACTLY at the same time the enemy has to block the mine under them; whereas with other strings that cancel into mine, Lex's jump attack to come out slightly longer after the enemy is ready to block.

However, IF the enemy is very, very quick on reaction, they can get up blocking the mine, and then possibly have time to AA Lex before his j3 is able to connect. This happened when I set Deathstroke to reversal-sword flip attack AFTER he blocked the mine and I jumped in with a j3. The range on j3 will stuff alot of AA wakeups that don't have good range and aren't extremely quick, however Sword Flip is quite effective at this. Still, it is extremely difficult for the Deathstroke player to do this, and if they do not do it fast enough, J3 will stuff the sword flip.


SITUATION 2.5: TECH ROLL AND BLOCKING (alternative solution)

This works best if you have trait active.

So the enemy may have found that the best way out of Lex's setup is to basically turtle it out. If they tech roll and block the mine first, Lex can't really get that much damage on them. Even if they are unable to block the low-mine then overhead j3, Lex doesn't really get much damage out of that additional J3, even with a corp charge. So if your enemy is being stubborn and teching everything, the following setup will mix them up a bit:

End the combo with B2 xx CLOSE MINE (normally, we've been using regular-distance). If you've used the setup with regular mine before, they will tech roll and block as normally. However, with the mine laid up close, you can jump in with a J2, and instead of going into the mixup they may be expecting, go directly into a throw. The throw will land the enemy into the mine that is behind you. Doing this will cause Lex to fall down (this happens when Lex throws an enemy into the mine), however, you can tech roll this, and get up in time to do a 11 xx MB grav pull for a full combo!

This is a tricky setup, however, it is pretty safe, especially if you have trait. If for some reason the enemy is able to successfully see this coming, and AA you as you go in with a j2 before the throw, you are protected from them getting a full combo off it (in most cases at least) because the mine is still right in front of them, and they cannot advance forward much without getting caught in it.

SITUATION 3: WAKE-UP
If they don't tech roll, you still have the option to wait for the wakeup and punish it, or push block them into the mine if it is not a punishable wakeup (such as sword spin). If the wakeup is not punishable but still gives Lex advantage on block, you still have the option to 50/50 them into the mine with a b13 or a F2. It is less certain you will get them into the mine this way (50% chance depending on how they block), but it doesn't cost the meter that push blocking does.

SITUATION 4: BLOCKING
If they don't tech roll, and they don't wake up either, they are STILL in a very bad position. Right in front of Lex. They can attack and get push-blocked into the mine, or opt to block instead and hope Lex's 50/50 does not connect. A successful b13 or f2 will push them into the mine and allow for another major follow-up combo.

It is important to note that the enemy, if they opt to block instead of wakeup after they do not tech-roll a b2 ender, is going to want to block low, so your best bet for the 50/50 is an f2. They are more likely to block low simply because holding back will walk them into the mine behind them.

Someone recently posted a video of a "reset" that does something very similar to this. It's not really a reset, however it shows the benefits of a setup that sandwhiches the opponent between Lex and the mine, which could potentially lead to HUGE damage.

Here's the video:

http://testyourmight.com/media/injustice-lex-luthor-90-2-bar-reset-combo.2923/

SITUATION 4.5: BLOCKING (alternative solution)
(a ridiculously crazy alternative way to deal with the situation )
Lastly, while you are waiting to see if they wakeup or not, you can hold back to block in preparation for the wake-up, which will make Lex walk back ever so slightly- once you see a wakeup isn't coming, try immediately going into the following string: 2,2,D+1. This is Lex's mid,mid, overhead string. The important thing here is the D+1 becomes almost PERFECTLY unblockable. The 2,2 will push the enemy right next to the mine, and the D+1 will hit overhead and whether it misses or hits, will put the enemy on top of the mine. To block both the D+1 and the mine, the enemy needs to block high then low at an extremely fast rate, and missing either will lead to a full combo. It's basically like Doomsday's earthshaker. It is important to note, Lex NEEDS to back up a bit or 22 will push the enemy over the mine long before the D+1 overhead connects- which is why I mentioned holding back to block while guarding from a possible wakeup from an enemy that did not tech-roll the b2.



***UPDATE***

Also, if they don't tech and are blocking, you can do a forward throw to put the enemy in the mine. I need to test if the throw will toss them far enough to go into the mine though.

Also, formal request for this to be peer-reviewed. I think this may be significant tech, but if anyone finds any issues, problems or holes that make this tech bad, I'd like to know, since I'm going to be using this ALOT:
Revolver
GGA pimpimjim
ShadowBeatz
x5STAR
whedgehead
imblackjames
uhfutzafooken (not sure if I spelled that right...)
Spacepopsicle

@ (any Lex mains I've forgotten)

 

[Spacepopsicle]

I've always used b2, I thought it was the norm for Lex users, I'd say my most common/favorite thing to do is b2 mine d3, (this can get blown up if you don't respect their WU though) d3 is fairly safe on block and the d3 will pop them onto the mine continuing the combo, ji3 d1xxMBvacuum whatever. I dunno I've been following this list to a tee almost for a very long time now, still good piece of tech to have on the forum though!

If I may another thing to do as an ender with b2 is simply trait up and dash in, you'll still be able to block their WU's and you're directly in front of them with a shield, which, I don't care who the opponent is, the shield messes with their head big time when you're right in their face

 

[whedgehead]

I saw you've been posting this around a lot, sorry I havent officially responded to this tech yet haha. Looks to me to be very solid, barring something we dont know this will be my go to setup ender. Great write-up!

 

[Tony at Home]

I

I've always used b2, I thought it was the norm for Lex users, I'd say my most common/favorite thing to do is b2 mine d3, (this can get blown up if you don't respect their WU though) d3 is fairly safe on block and the d3 will pop them onto the mine continuing the combo, ji3 d1xxMBvacuum whatever. I dunno I've been following this list to a tee almost for a very long time now, still good piece of tech to have on the forum though!

If I may another thing to do as an ender with b2 is simply trait up and dash in, you'll still be able to block their WU's and you're directly in front of them with a shield, which, I don't care who the opponent is, the shield messes with their head big time when you're right in their face

I think following up b2 xx mine with d3 is pretty unsafe. If they don't tech the b2, the d3 is full-combo punished on block by the entire cast, for a low attack you are better off throwing out a b13 which is safe and it will still push them back far enough to land on the mine.

If they do tech roll the b2 then they'll land on the mine, which means they'll have to block low because of the mine so naturally if you throw out a d3 they'll already be blocking low for it, which is why my suggestion is to handle a tech roll with a j3 to force them to block the low mine and overhead j3.

And once they are on the mine with the setup, because the mine didn't land far away, you can just dash up to the mine and do a b3- you don't have to waste meter on the MB vacuum, meaning you can do the whole setup again without spending further meter

And I like the suggestion of cancelling b2 into a trait-dash. I had always assumed you could be hit out of the dash if they tech a wakeup, but since b2 gives such great advantage I guess I may be able to do that safely. I will test that out tommorrow and if it is safe from a tech-roll wake-up I'll add it to the original post

 

[Spacepopsicle]

I think following up b2 xx mine with d3 is pretty unsafe. If they don't tech the b2, the d3 is full-combo punished on block by the entire cast, for a low attack you are better off throwing out a b13 which is safe and it will still push them back far enough to land on the mine.

If they do tech roll the b2 then they'll land on the mine, which means they'll have to block low because of the mine so naturally if you throw out a d3 they'll already be blocking low for it, which is why my suggestion is to handle a tech roll with a j3 to force them to block the low mine and overhead j3.

And once they are on the mine with the setup, because the mine didn't land far away, you can just dash up to the mine and do a b3- you don't have to waste meter on the MB vacuum, meaning you can do the whole setup again without spending further meter

d3 is -10 on block, it can be punished, but the look of the move and how far away the opponent is after I've never been punished for using it, ever. After using the d3 if they block it they are right next to the mine, so they generally stay blocked, so it's perfect if your still shielded, if not still good, you ji3 so they got hit by the overhead into minexxb3 or they block it and then the knockback hits them into the minexxb3, only way out is a dash forward, risking getting it by overhead, using a special while you're jumped or jumping away themselves resulting in getting hit by ji3 CC 19% but ultimately avoiding the mine, that is way I use d3 more so than f2/22d1/b2u3d3

 

[Tony at Home]

d3 is -10 on block, it can be punished, but the look of the move and how far away the opponent is after I've never been punished for using it, ever. After using the d3 if they block it they are right next to the mine, so they generally stay blocked, so it's perfect if your still shielded, if not still good, you ji3 so they got hit by the overhead into minexxb3 or they block it and then the knockback hits them into the minexxb3, only way out is a dash forward, risking getting it by overhead, using a special while you're jumped or jumping away themselves resulting in getting hit by ji3 CC 19% but ultimately avoiding the mine, that is way I use d3 more so than f2/22d1/b2u3d3

So, I tested this out in all scenarios, and whenever d3 hit an enemy that blocked, it was able to be punished by a Sword Flip.

If the opponent tech-rolls after the b2, they are actually out of d3 range, and it will whiff, which can be safely punished with quick shots after the enemy blocks the mine.

If the opponent does not tech roll after the b2, the d3 will hit them, but it will not push them back fare enough to be on the mine, and it can be punished by a sword flip.

And remember this is a setup that comes after a full combo, meaning more than likely if Lex had shields when he started the combo, he will have lost them by the time the wake-up is around.

Also, Sword Flip is a multi-hit and will tear through Lex's shields so that will not make d3 safe either.

Lastly, it is very significant d3 is -10 on block. If you have shields, d3 is very hard to punish, because shields will absorb the hit, however, you still will not have blocked that hit, meaning you can't push block it. The beauty of using b13/f2 instead of d3 after the b2xxMine setup, is if b13/f2 do not connect, you will still be able to pushblock the enemy into the mine; that's 1 bar of meter in exchange for over 30% damage free AND another setup.

I used Deathstroke as a practice dummy for this setup because he has some of the best get-out-of-pressure wake-up attacks in the game, and I wanted this setup to work in all cases no matter what the opponent does.

D3 is definitely a great move, and it is very hard to punish at full distance, however, in this setup, the enemy is either completely out of d3 range (if they tech roll), or too close so d3 will not push them far back enough into the mine, and it can be easily punished by too many attacks.

 

[MashPotatoTower]

The Lexer the Luthor I always say

 

[Tony at Home]

If I may another thing to do as an ender with b2 is simply trait up and dash in, you'll still be able to block their WU's and you're directly in front of them with a shield, which, I don't care who the opponent is, the shield messes with their head big time when you're right in their face

I tested the b2 to trait dash and it worked against all wake-ups!

However, you can do the trait dash with a 22 instead of a b2, and still be in their face, with trait, and able to block any wake-ups.

For that reason if you want to do your trait setup, I'd suggest using a 22 instead, simply because you get more damage out of it, and it is still COMPLETELY safe; you can block in time and pretty much punish anything with shields. 22-trait-dash has all the benefits of b2-trait-dash, with the addition of more damage

Great find!

 

[Spacepopsicle]

maybe d3 is more of an online warrior tech than, I will consider switching it to b13, It's just I've used it so long without any repercussions that I assumed it was safer than it was, and after testing just how far back the d3 leaves opponent after block, it wasn't as close to the mine as I had thought either.
As with b2 I know I didn't know 22 was safe but I don't I'll switch just because I don't think the 1-2% will be worth ruining my muscle memory of some of the combos it's the same with b13/f2/112 vacuum background bounce I know doing b2 BB does less damage than 22 BB but I just never seem to do it

 

[Tony at Home]

If you are online, it may be a safe bet to do b2 instead of 22-trait.

Because 22-trait-dash is ONLY safe from a tech-roll-to-wakeup if after the b3-j2, you hit the 22 as soon as it can possibly connect with the airborne enemy. If for whatever reason the 22 comes out a bit late, the enemy will hit the ground before your trait dash has recovered and a multi-hit wake-up will stuff Lex.

I THINK the 22-trait-dash thing is only safe now after the patch. I'm going to test to see if I can do it on an unpatched console and see if that gets stuffed in comparison- it is one way to measure by exactly how much the cooldown on Lex's forward dash has been reduced, since NRS did not mention or specify this in the patch notes.

But for all intents and purposes, being able to safely dash up to an enemy, with trait, and able to block a wake-up such that another guaranteed 50/50 into a full combo with the same setup-ending:

Lex Luthor has a 1-meter vortex (kinda..) (I say kinda because trait will still need to recharge after the next full combo, meaning you wont be able to perfectly link the setup to itself)

***UPDATE***
You can actually get level 2 shields safely from the dash and still block ANY wakeup, and the level 2 shields will last until another combo, meaning this is actually a full-blown vortex with a 3-cycle max!!!

 

[rev0lver]

I use b2 a lot to end combos. My only problem is that the timing can be a little bit more strict when it's off a j3. Usually I'll get it, but I'll get nervous in tournaments and do an early j3 or something and miss it lol.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

maybe d3 is more of an online warrior tech than, I will consider switching it to b13, It's just I've used it so long without any repercussions that I assumed it was safer than it was, and after testing just how far back the d3 leaves opponent after block, it wasn't as close to the mine as I had thought either.
As with b2 I know I didn't know 22 was safe but I don't I'll switch just because I don't think the 1-2% will be worth ruining my muscle memory of some of the combos it's the same with b13/f2/112 vacuum background bounce I know doing b2 BB does less damage than 22 BB but I just never seem to do it

I use sweep a lot. It has great range and you can knock them into mines with it. Also I abuse the balls off of j.3 so people block high against me a lot.

Literally at the start of the match I almost always do instant j.3 or sweep

 

[Spacepopsicle]

I use sweep a lot. It has great range and you can knock them into mines with it. Also I abuse the balls off of j.3 so people block high against me a lot.

Literally at the start of the match I almost always do instant j.3 or sweep

I'd say Lex's best normal would be hisj.3 then his d3, the sweep is so good, and yea I think every time I ever rush it's always trait, dash j.3 it's so fucking good that why not use it all the time, if you connect, CC for 19% hard knockdown or it connects probe for instant offense, if It's block you're still in awesome positioning

 

[Thead]

LtLuthor You didn't test against the one thing that ruins pretty much every mine setup (barring the Background Bounce one) .. which is Tech Roll into Backdash.

Anytime an opponent is knocked down by Lex, they should be aiming to Techroll. After a Techroll it's very easy to react to which Mine was placed, all setups into Close/Mid Mine can be Backdashed on reaction. Far Mine requires Techroll into Wakeup/neutral game.

I still maintain, Lexs Trait is his number one priority in his setup/mixup game, and should be what you aim to have in place at the end of a combo over a Mine.

Starter combo~MB Grav Pull, B3, Ji2, 22/21~Corp Charge, Trait Dash Forward - 33+% damage, 100% safe Trait setup against the entire cast. Leaving you in their face with armour for a Mixup.

Starter combo~MB Grav Pull, B3, Ji3, 22/21~Corp Charge, Trait Dash Forward -35+% damage, safe Trait setup against the vast majority of the cast.

Both those combos last long enough, that if your armour was hit during the beginning, it would have recharged. Making it a nasty loop.

I'm not saying don't use Mine setups, they can help mindfuck your opponent, but I would never choose a Mine over a safe Trait into more pressure, and once your shield is active and you score a combo, then I would try for a Mine setup.

Maybe it sounds like I'm rambling, just whenever I see anyone hit with a Mine .. I see the reason for it being they just didn't know what to do against it .. and as time goes on people will learn how to avoid the fairly easy to avoid Mine Setups.

 

[Tony at Home]

LtLuthor You didn't test against the one thing that ruins pretty much every mine setup (barring the Background Bounce one) .. which is Tech Roll into Backdash.

Anytime an opponent is knocked down by Lex, they should be aiming to Techroll. After a Techroll it's very easy to react to which Mine was placed, all setups into Close/Mid Mine can be Backdashed on reaction. Far Mine requires Techroll into Wakeup/neutral game.

For this setup- they cannot tech roll directly into a backdash. If they tech they must block the mine before they backdash, or they will be caught in the grav mine.

When they block the mine, they are put in block stun for 20 frames (grav mine is -20 on block). So by the time they are dashing, Lex's J3 is already hitting.

In the setup I state due to the increased advantage of b2 xx mine, a j3 connects much more sooner after the opponent blocks the mine. Its almost immediate that they must block low for the then high for the J3 followup.

I did note in my post that if the enemy has an extremely good AA move that comes out quick, they can just barely interrupt the j3 after blocking the mine, but in testing, it required a AA move that had a startup of only 7 frames.

This setup is unique in that a tech roll puts them ON TOP of the mine, instead of behind it, for that reason a backdash will trap them in the mine, or they will be hit out of the dash via j3 if they attempt to do so after the mine.

 

[Name v.5.0]

LtLuthor You didn't test against the one thing that ruins pretty much every mine setup (barring the Background Bounce one) .. which is Tech Roll into Backdash.

Anytime an opponent is knocked down by Lex, they should be aiming to Techroll. After a Techroll it's very easy to react to which Mine was placed, all setups into Close/Mid Mine can be Backdashed on reaction. Far Mine requires Techroll into Wakeup/neutral game.

I still maintain, Lexs Trait is his number one priority in his setup/mixup game, and should be what you aim to have in place at the end of a combo over a Mine.

Starter combo~MB Grav Pull, B3, Ji2, 22/21~Corp Charge, Trait Dash Forward - 33+% damage, 100% safe Trait setup against the entire cast. Leaving you in their face with armour for a Mixup.

Starter combo~MB Grav Pull, B3, Ji3, 22/21~Corp Charge, Trait Dash Forward -35+% damage, safe Trait setup against the vast majority of the cast.

Both those combos last long enough, that if your armour was hit during the beginning, it would have recharged. Making it a nasty loop.

I'm not saying don't use Mine setups, they can help mindfuck your opponent, but I would never choose a Mine over a safe Trait into more pressure, and once your shield is active and you score a combo, then I would try for a Mine setup.

Maybe it sounds like I'm rambling, just whenever I see anyone hit with a Mine .. I see the reason for it being they just didn't know what to do against it .. and as time goes on people will learn how to avoid the fairly easy to avoid Mine Setups.

I can agree with you. What I'm seeing now that Lex is getting good press, is that people are figuring out how to deal with his mine/probe setups. Might be best to lay off of those tactics and just get in with armor.

 

[Thead]

For this setup- they cannot tech roll directly into a backdash. If they tech they must block the mine before they backdash, or they will be caught in the grav mine.

Ah shit, now I feel stupid lol.

Enemy can escape by Tech Rolling, jump forward attack. They can hit Lex before his Ji3 comes out. But it all becomes a few too many options with the other things Lex can do from here.

Definitely a good setup when you have your Trait out.

Again, I think doing more damage into safe Trait setup into pressure/loop will always be a better choice for my style of play, but if I already have Level 3 Trait and snag a combo, this setup looks like it could be pretty nasty. Thanks.

 

[Tony at Home]

Ah shit, now I feel stupid lol.

Enemy can escape by Tech Rolling, jump forward attack. They can hit Lex before his Ji3 comes out. But it all becomes a few too many options with the other things Lex can do from here.

Definitely a good setup when you have your Trait out.

Again, I think doing more damage into safe Trait setup into pressure/loop will always be a better choice for my style of play, but if I already have Level 3 Trait and snag a combo, this setup looks like it could be pretty nasty. Thanks.

I definitely love ending with 22-trait-dash. It puts you right in the enemy's face, you are able to block ANY wakeups, and will still have trait afterwards that will last even until after another full combo (if you have level 3, only sometimes with level 2)...

Anyway, IF you have trait and you do this, and your enemy is in the habit of tech-rolling all the time, here's a super-dirty setup:

End a [Starter combo]~MB Grav Pull, B3, [Ji3 or Ji2], B2 with a CLOSE MINE, then dash up to the tech-rolled enemy after.

The mine should be behind you, and the enemy in front, with you in the middle.

Since you have shields, I'm assuming the enemy would be hesitant to do any wakeups or attacks: so throw the enemy. The enemy will land behind you, in the mine after the throw. You are knocked down as well because that happens for some reason when Lex throws an enemy into the mine, however if you tech roll that knockdown, you can get up quickly enough to do a 11-corp charge for an extra 20% meterless total, or if you have meter, another full combo

It's really tricky to pull of, because you have to get the tech roll right and hit 11 IMMEDIATELY after, but it's a great way to punish an enemy who is accustomed to turtling out your setups. Of course, you need shields, because otherwise you are vulnerable while you dash after setting a close mine.

 

[whedgehead]

I definitely love ending with 22-trait-dash. It puts you right in the enemy's face, you are able to block ANY wakeups, and will still have trait afterwards that will last even until after another full combo (if you have level 3, only sometimes with level 2)...

Anyway, IF you have trait and you do this, and your enemy is in the habit of tech-rolling all the time, here's a super-dirty setup:

End a [Starter combo]~MB Grav Pull, B3, [Ji3 or Ji2], B2 with a CLOSE MINE, then dash up to the tech-rolled enemy after.

The mine should be behind you, and the enemy in front, with you in the middle.

Since you have shields, I'm assuming the enemy would be hesitant to do any wakeups or attacks: so throw the enemy. The enemy will land behind you, in the mine after the throw. You are knocked down as well because that happens for some reason when Lex throws an enemy into the mine, however if you tech roll that knockdown, you can get up quickly enough to do a 11-corp charge for an extra 20% meterless total, or if you have meter, another full combo

It's really tricky to pull of, because you have to get the tech roll right and hit 11 IMMEDIATELY after, but it's a great way to punish an enemy who is accustomed to turtling out your setups. Of course, you need shields, because otherwise you are vulnerable while you dash after setting a close mine.

Gimmicks make me really happy hahaha