Eight Things MK11 Needs to Decide

[GLoRToR]

1. Are Fatal Blows based off of Signature Specials or off of Normals?
2. Will Fatal Blows track or not?
3. What damage do Fatal Blows do for what tradeoff?
4. What is a Fatal Blow at all? A last resort move? A tide turner? Something to hype up the end of the match?

1-4 Currently, there are a handful of characters whose Fatal Blow is a Tactical Orbital Bombardment with satellite radial scanning leading to complete annihilation on the surface and as deep down as two industrial stories underground.
The rest of the Fatal Blows in the game vary from a brick you can try to toss at someone's head and probably miss, a rusty switchblade that will cut you and you die of blood poisoning if you mess up, and a hollow paper baseball bat.
Now anywhere in Game Design you'll find that the more powerful an ability is, the bigger the downside to it needs to be, or it will overperform and be detrimental to the overall game performance and playability.
With Fatal Blows like Kabal, Erron or Cetrion or non-buttonpress damages varying between one fifth and one fourth of the healthbar for no visible tradeoff or weakness, and the strongest Fatal Blows being the safest as well, we are left wondering as to what NRS considers Game Balance.

1. Are throws mids or highs?
2. What determines a move's speed, range and safety? What are the tradeoffs?
3. How was the Neutral supposed to be played?
4. Do we want characters to be more like Erron with no weaknesses, or more like the lower tiers who have tradeoffs for benefits?

5-8 Currently, throws reach far, beat out crouching moves, and that includes the uppercut which was supposed to counter it. I don't mind grappling being strong in a game especially since everyone can do it, but then they should be consistent and reliable. Right now, mashing out throws is the number one scrub strategy online and sadly it works because of latency.
This ties in with how some characters have 9f, advancing mids / lows into launchers while other characters have stationary, 11-16f mids and lows with horrible reach that lead to no damage.
We were promised a neutral based, more honest game, and then suddenly one third of the cast has hitbox priorities, reach, speed, damage and all that at once.

 

[ChoseDeath]

Wow... great list. Gets the noggin jogging. Well done. I don't have any dissenting opinion, I just concur.

 

[Tony at Home]

Are throws mids or highs?

They are neither. They're "mids that whiff on neutral duck"

Currently, throws reach far, beat out crouching moves, and that includes the uppercut which was supposed to counter it

Throws do not "beat out" crouching moves. They have no startup invulnerability against d1s or d2s or d3s. If your poke connects before a throw is active you win. If a throw connects before your poke is active it wins. Nothing is playing outside the normal rules of frame data.

In any situation where a throw beats out you're poke, so would a fast mid. You might as well be thankful it was just a throw and not a 9 frame mid into a full combo.


In any situation you're getting thrown out of a poke or a d2 then you're mashing d2 when negative or d1 on negative. How is throw the "scrubby" option here but getting thrown because you're mashing when negative on block not?

 

[xenogorgeous]

man, your criticism to NRS games is a good one welcome, I like that .... cause are very constructive critics at all ! you would do very nice working on Quality Assurance departament in NRS headquarter, hehe

 

[xenogorgeous]

Fatal Blows are good idea in the theory field, but not well done at practical field, hehe .... sure, NRS thought about something that could replace easily the old X-Ray super moves kind type, and decided to go with the FB and KB mechanics for this game ..... however, after 3 months since the game released came out, this gameplay mechanics seems bland dull, scrub friendly, and anti-hype as fuck ..... there are a lots of threads already created on TYM discussing the pros and cons of FB, so .....

same for throws, the way they work in this game, are disastrous ..... people already proved by arguments this in a couple of threads covering specificly this subject, so, another stuff that NRS might ought solve out, but probably, won't do jack shit about it ....

 

[GLoRToR]

They are neither. They're "mids that whiff on neutral duck"



Throws do not "beat out" crouching moves. They have no startup invulnerability against d1s or d2s or d3s. If your poke connects before a throw is active you win. If a throw connects before your poke is active it wins. Nothing is playing outside the normal rules of frame data.

In any situation where a throw beats out you're poke, so would a fast mid. You might as well be thankful it was just a throw and not a 9 frame mid into a full combo.


In any situation you're getting thrown out of a poke or a d2 then you're mashing d2 when negative or d1 on negative. How is throw the "scrubby" option here but getting thrown because you're mashing when negative on block not?

I know how they work right now. I'm just one of the people who disagrees and I think they need changing.
If you ask people from other fighting games you'll see a lot of them mention throws as one of the reasons why they can't get into mk11. Not going to run the appeal to imaginary crowd thing though, you'll see plenty of people in and out of our community dislike getting grabbed out of a sweep, d1, or even a d2.
It's a bad design right now.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

1. Are Fatal Blows based off of Signature Specials or off of Normals?
2. Will Fatal Blows track or not?
3. What damage do Fatal Blows do for what tradeoff?
4. What is a Fatal Blow at all? A last resort move? A tide turner? Something to hype up the end of the match?

1-4 Currently, there are a handful of characters whose Fatal Blow is a Tactical Orbital Bombardment with satellite radial scanning leading to complete annihilation on the surface and as deep down as two industrial stories underground.
The rest of the Fatal Blows in the game vary from a brick you can try to toss at someone's head and probably miss, a rusty switchblade that will cut you and you die of blood poisoning if you mess up, and a hollow paper baseball bat.
Now anywhere in Game Design you'll find that the more powerful an ability is, the bigger the downside to it needs to be, or it will overperform and be detrimental to the overall game performance and playability.
With Fatal Blows like Kabal, Erron or Cetrion or non-buttonpress damages varying between one fifth and one fourth of the healthbar for no visible tradeoff or weakness, and the strongest Fatal Blows being the safest as well, we are left wondering as to what NRS considers Game Balance.

1. Are throws mids or highs?
2. What determines a move's speed, range and safety? What are the tradeoffs?
3. How was the Neutral supposed to be played?
4. Do we want characters to be more like Erron with no weaknesses, or more like the lower tiers who have tradeoffs for benefits?

5-8 Currently, throws reach far, beat out crouching moves, and that includes the uppercut which was supposed to counter it. I don't mind grappling being strong in a game especially since everyone can do it, but then they should be consistent and reliable. Right now, mashing out throws is the number one scrub strategy online and sadly it works because of latency.
This ties in with how some characters have 9f, advancing mids / lows into launchers while other characters have stationary, 11-16f mids and lows with horrible reach that lead to no damage.
We were promised a neutral based, more honest game, and then suddenly one third of the cast has hitbox priorities, reach, speed, damage and all that at once.

To clear up 5-8. We had this discussion. On a trade with a throw, the game is flipping the winner every frame. Otherwise a throw acts like a special move that would counter a normal button. The problem is the 3frame input lag online... not the throw itself. Throws have a "counter" hit area that is a mid... but are duckable. You have to "miss" the active frames before you can punish it. That is how the game works.

In regards to number 8. The reason the top tier are there... is because they can play strike/throw with little fear of punishment on the strike portion. They're always safe and thus can stay int he strike/throw game.

That is how the game is currently designed. They don't need to "figure it out". THey figured it out. Its how many characters do they want playing this style is what they need to figure out.

 

[GLoRToR]

To clear up 5-8. We had this discussion. On a trade with a throw, the game is flipping the winner every frame. Otherwise a throw acts like a special move that would counter a normal button. The problem is the 3frame input lag online... not the throw itself. Throws have a "counter" hit area that is a mid... but are duckable. You have to "miss" the active frames before you can punish it. That is how the game works.

In regards to number 8. The reason the top tier are there... is because they can play strike/throw with little fear of punishment on the strike portion. They're always safe and thus can stay int he strike/throw game.

That is how the game is currently designed. They don't need to "figure it out". THey figured it out. Its how many characters do they want playing this style is what they need to figure out.

Yep. Read my previous reply, applies here too.

 

[Madog32]

To clear up 5-8. We had this discussion. On a trade with a throw, the game is flipping the winner every frame. Otherwise a throw acts like a special move that would counter a normal button.

Is this true? Just yesterday I traded a grab with Kabals B1 and we were both staggered. Its the first time I saw a grab trade with a normal, but it definitely happened

 

[GLoRToR]

To clear up 5-8. We had this discussion. On a trade with a throw, the game is flipping the winner every frame. Otherwise a throw acts like a special move that would counter a normal button. The problem is the 3frame input lag online... not the throw itself. Throws have a "counter" hit area that is a mid... but are duckable. You have to "miss" the active frames before you can punish it. That is how the game works.

In regards to number 8. The reason the top tier are there... is because they can play strike/throw with little fear of punishment on the strike portion. They're always safe and thus can stay int he strike/throw game.

That is how the game is currently designed. They don't need to "figure it out". THey figured it out. Its how many characters do they want playing this style is what they need to figure out.

Let's talk about mids though. They are the most important normals in the game and the way some of them are literally omnipotent mkx combo starters while others just suck, is a serious issue because characters who have them, also have everything else while those characters who do not, lack in everything else too usually.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Is this true? Just yesterday I traded a grab with Kabals B1 and we were both staggered. Its the first time I saw a grab trade with a normal, but it definitely happened

Dizzy tweeted it out. Every frame the game determines what wins in a trade between a throw and a normal.

 

[Madog32]

Dizzy tweeted it out. Every frame the game determines what wins in a trade between a throw and a normal.

Ill have to find the match replay. It definitely traded!

 

[kcd117]

1. Are throws mids or highs?

Throws are the way they should be. Making them a true high would ruin the tick throw game for the grapplers big time, and would also make the poking meta unbearable. Making them a true mid would make them overpowered, as characters with strike throw mixups or tick throws would force you to jump to avoid them and they'd have very little counterplay. They are perfect imo.

"Mashing throws" is really not a thing tbh... you can still counter them by D2ing and low poking (even tho it is not the optimal punish), but if you are mashing D2 then you deserve to get hit by them as you clearly didn't make the read and was just pressing your panic button instead.

 

[Tony at Home]

know how they work right now. I'm just one of the people who disagrees and I think they need changing.

So what then? Honestly asking because throws have no special immunity against pokes right now so the only way you're going to make pokes even better against them is "d1s and d3s and d3s now have throw immunity" which is nuts.

Throws beat mashing by design too. It's not that NRS needs to "decide" this. Throws beat people mashing pokes when they're minus on block and that's a good thing.

 

[GLoRToR]

So what then? Honestly asking because throws have no special immunity against pokes right now so the only way you're going to make pokes even better against them is "d1s and d3s and d3s now have throw immunity" which is nuts.

Throws beat mashing by design too. It's not that NRS needs to "decide" this. Throws beat people mashing pokes when they're minus on block and that's a good thing.

Like you said, it's worse online than it is offline. I don't know what because I can't see hitboxes when the "beating out" happens but I've had the tip of my retracting d4 grabbed before and that's just plain stupid.

But let's not make this thread about throws, let's see about mids.

 

[Error404]

Does are good questions , but we all know NRS makes this shit up as they go along, so you'll never get answers.

 

[Agilaz]

We were promised a neutral based, more honest game, and then suddenly one third of the cast has hitbox priorities, reach, speed, damage and all that at once.

This so much. I can't help but feel a lot of changes were made in the last stages of design in order to appease the massive amounts of rushdown fanatics that carried over from MKX.

Right now some characters can literally just dash in your face and throw out buttons that all lead to big damage, often being very safe to boot. They're not bound to the same rules as the rest.

I feel they need to go back to the way the game was at beta. Slower, not filled with 40% combos for some characters and an all-round more honest approach. They probably won't since this would alienate the casuals (which of course are their biggest market demographic), but unless they do something about it this game will go the exact same route as their previous games.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

Like you said, it's worse online than it is offline. I don't know what because I can't see hitboxes when the "beating out" happens but I've had the tip of my retracting d4 grabbed before and that's just plain stupid.

But let's not make this thread about throws, let's see about mids.

There was a entire thread he was defending throws even when I gave examples online and he still couldn't follow.
Its a long battle to get this guy to undertand we dont all have offline locals to go to

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

this game will go the exact same route as their previous games.

which is exactly what has happened for all NRS games.... so...

 

[Madog32]

There was a entire thread he was defending throws even when I gave examples online and he still couldn't follow.
Its a long battle to get this guy to undertand we dont all have offline locals to go to

but he's not making any of it up. Its all pretty logical. Whether the connection is working against you or not, the grab is not "eating" your buttons. Its doing exactly what it should be doing...beating your buttons.

Maybe changes do need to be made, but the priority of grabs vs normals does not. Maybe instead NRS should address the frames of pokes, or the inherent frame delay for online matches.

 

[Agilaz]

which is exactly what has happened for all NRS games.... so...

But it shouldn't be the case. The game really does have potential. It shouldn't be squandered.