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EDIT: What do you think of this tier list?

Remz

wavenet.remz.ca
EDIT:

Hi, I tried what Juggernaut said about how tier lists works and after some reflexion and talking to better players than me, I came up with the following online character ranking which is different from UMK's one. I want to share and challenge my opinions on character ranking because I want to have a better understanding of the game and it's also fun to do.

The list is based on the following opinions:

Normal moves like jabs or sweeps are very important. Combos should not be too overated.
A less damaging move/combo MAY be just as good if you can deal it often enough.
Two or more characters MAY share the same ranking.
The list MUST consider every 253 different matchups.
The amount of consistent damage you can deal in a given time is all that matter in the long run.

I would like to know what you guys are thinking about this. If you have time, and would like to do so, that would be cool if you post "your" list with matchups too.

The rules is: You assume that the god of umk3 is playing against a player of the same skill (another god of umk3 :p) for 10 matches and write the results.

CLICK HERE to see the list
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Origninal Post:

Hi, I don't want to start a debate on the tier list itelf, but I'm really not sure if I understand how it really works.

You do a list of which character wins the more matches in tournaments? Or which character has more chances to win?

Why is it a list with numbers, there is no equal characters?

Only one more thing, I don't really understand why female ninjas like Kitana are mid tier. The best players i've played all have a very very sick Kitana.
 
Noob questions about how tier list woks.

Not too sure about real tier lists, but I read somewhere that you do the 6:4, 5:5, 4:6 thing (saying that this character would win 6 out of 10 times against another certain character, etc). Then you add up all of the first numbers, and whoever is the highest is the top, and so forth.
 
Noob questions about how tier list woks.

Exactly what juggs said,
though i may add that tier lists can also be subject to change.
say for example if you had Sf4, and now you have SSf4.

they all have the same characters, except for a few new ones.
which of course could change the tier list.

that and several different properties from the characters and the game itself.

basically i would think the only way a tier list would change is if someone just brought out an expansion of a
another game that pre existed with the same style at hand. thus,as mentioned before match ups and ratios would change since it's new even though old characters are present.


i hope that kinda makes sense.
if not, feel free to correct me on this.
 

ded

Elder God
Noob questions about how tier list woks.

tier lists are based on how quickly (also difficulty) a player can reach a character at its full (or almost full) potential.

god tiers are characters that require not that much skill to win with and often such games are not taken seriously or those characters are banned

often in high-level everything except top 3 (top 5 in some cases) is different and individual
 

Remz

wavenet.remz.ca
Noob questions about how tier list works.

ded_ said:
tier lists are based on how quickly (also difficulty) a player can reach a character at its full (or almost full) potential.
It sounds surprising to me. I imagine a character that can't do anything, he would be god tier following this logic. He would reach his full potential very quickly and easily.
 

ded

Elder God
Noob questions about how tier list works.

i'm not familiar with other fighting games but lets say you will need a month of practice with kabal to participate well in tournaments, while with sektor for example you will need 10
 

FatalTragedy

Jesus Fucking Christ
Noob questions about how tier list works.

ded_ said:
i'm not familiar with other fighting games but lets say you will need a month of practice with kabal to participate well in tournaments, while with sektor for example you will need 10
I caught a video on the Youtube of Cyrax in a tourney (I think in Venezuela) absolutely dominating a Kabal player. That is impressive.
 

Remz

wavenet.remz.ca
Thanks guys! The original topic ENDS HERE
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I edited the first post! :D
 
S

SuGaR

Guest
H. Smoke is not better than Kabal, ever.

EDIT: I stopped reading it after that, then I went back and saw that you had Ermac at 3, no offense, but it's really, really wrong. Really.
 

Remz

wavenet.remz.ca
Its not 1 to 23 so he is not exacly 3rd. I didn't say it is right! Did you read my post? I know it is wrong, lol I only want to know why it is. :D
Don't worry I am really open to critics because that's exacly why I posted this.
 
S

SuGaR

Guest
Ermac doesn't have enough options and good match-ups to rank over a lot of the characters you put him over.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
I think H.Smoke and Kabal are definitely comparable and up there 1 and 2 easily...

But I think for this list Remz, IMO Reptile, U. Sub should be higher and Jax definitely higher then Sindel to me...lol...Jax is a beast in this game.

Otherwise, I think the rest of it is pretty accurate online I don't really disagree with the overall list that much just a few people in a few spots ;) but cool tier list.
 

Remz

wavenet.remz.ca
MKF30 said:
I think H.Smoke and Kabal are definitely comparable and up there 1 and 2 easily...

But I think for this list Remz, IMO Reptile, U. Sub should be higher and Jax definitely higher then Sindel to me...lol...Jax is a beast in this game.

Otherwise, I think the rest of it is pretty accurate online I don't really disagree with the overall list that much just a few people in a few spots ;) but cool tier list.
Maybe I overate teleporters even if I don't really use them. Yea Jax can really be a beast. :p
Reptile is high on the list because the difference of one or 2 points is not very significative IMO.
I think that the gap between characters is pretty small and I prefer using "groups" than a ranking with a number for every character.
 
Remz said:
Maybe I overate teleporters even if I don't really use them. Yea Jax can really be a beast. :p
Reptile is high on the list because the difference of one or 2 points is not very significative IMO.
I think that the gap between characters is pretty small and I prefer using "groups" than a ranking with a number for every character.
That's how most game tier lists are. It would have A+, A, B+, B, C+, C, etc. With a certain amount of characters in each group.
 

Remz

wavenet.remz.ca
Cool, that's exacly what I did with colors on "my" tier list (click to view)

A+: Kabal, H. Smoke

A: Kung Lao, Kano, Nightwolf, Ermac

B+: Reptile, Kitana, Sonya

B: Smoke, Sindel, Jax

C+: Stryker, Jade

C: Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Sheeva

D+: Liu Kang

D: Sektor, Shang Tsung, Mileena

E: C. Sub-Zero, Cyrax
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
Yeah, I hear what you're saying to rank em in groups or different levels like say

Top Tiers
Middle High
Middle
Middle Low
Low Tiers


Any of them work I think :)
 

Konqrr

Kital... Kabana... whatever, same thing.
I know from my experience with playing Liu that he struggles greatly against teleporting ninjas. Every time he throws a fireball (air or ground), they get a free teleport punch. If they are close enough, they get a free combo (spear for sco/hsmk/rsmk) EVEN IF THE LOW FIRE HITS lol ...Liu has really good footsies and pressure, but against any teleporting ninja, he is free. His best move is the bicycle kick, it avoids crossups if you time it right and potentially leads to free damage after (lk or 7-hit to sweep in corner or his infinite anywhere on the screen if you land the move as a counter hit) but you are dead if you get blocked.

BTW, I'm not talking about random stupid teleporting, I mean reactionary teleporting. Liu is not safe.
 

FatalTragedy

Jesus Fucking Christ
Yeah but if Kabal's laying on the pressure doesn't that generally mean he's too close for Sub to actually clone? I haven't played long enough to know every scenario but I imagine if Kabal's throwing out jabs and Sub attempts to clone and fails, Kabal will plow through him before he touches the ground.
 

RoGE

Noob
I am just saying that when your farther away, you'll be able to use the ice clone which will cancel out that spin pressure game from a distance, but yeah your pretty much right, not much sub can do in close range.
 

Konqrr

Kital... Kabana... whatever, same thing.
- Kabal's dash is faster than even uSub's Close Ice Shower.
- uSub's Iceball has bad recovery, and if he gets hit by a jk to spin then full combo, that's 59% for trying to freeze.
- Up close, if Kabal blocks an Iceball attempt, he gets a free spin.
- Kabal only needs to land two combos, where uSub has to land three.
- Once Kabal gets in, only slide can save him and that's a free spin to 42%.
+ uSub has a nasty 50% combo that he can land ANYtime he gets an aaIceball/Shower, but that's pretty hard to do against Kabal.
- uSub can't reliably hit Kabal out of a jk with an aaHP (maybe not ever?), his aaHK sometimes gets stuffed by Kabal's jk.
+ uSub has some pretty good keep away tactics, but they are predictable.

IMO, it is definitely in Kabal's favor, 6-4.
 

Dreamcatcher

EFL Founder
Royal Contributor
RoGE said:
not much sub can do in close range.
This is the same reason why Kabal dominates every character with an exception of the few. Kabal outranks him in nearly everything, most importantly damage.

USub has no ice clone when Kabal applies enough pressure, and then he doesn't really have a freeze either. USub's strategy against Kabal is a gamble looking at almost every angle because it relies on some sort of gutsy chance probability, whether it be priority in normals for anti-air or a coin flip reaction with specials.

A good example of this would be a USub player cancelling their jabs with block in order to bait a spin or even cancel into an ice clone. The Kabal player can jab them right back and USub's frames will change to blocking, now giving Kabal a free rush. (I do this to Marvirrasta sometimes because he cancels almost all his jabs with block, most people don't do it enough) If USub fakes the rush far enough to get an ice clone in baiting a spin/rush, they are left further away with the ice clone reset timer and inability to freeze; coincidentally giving free time to Kabal to rush without worry since the freeze is noticeably slower to come out than the ice clone... and just like Konqrr said, the slide is almost a joke in countering. If you get a slide it's just mediocre damage delaying an inevitable rush, it doesn't push Kabal away too much out of his comfort zone. This scenario is if the player is unafraid to get in Kabal's space, which is undoubtedly necessary to be competitive and yet much riskier than a zoning strategy.

On the other hand, to attempt zoning beyond mid screen would be just as risky but in a different manner. If you are full screen away, not only does it take out the ice clone factor, you are basically saying "come get me". Also, ice showers AT ALL are risky... Kabal is prone to spin right though them in any situation or distance.

My best advice to the USub player would be to switch from zoning to close combat as much as possible, always taking advantage of any position they can get on Kabal. I know that sounds vague so let me try with this: Don't ever leave off hits from a combo against Kabal since it's a free spin if they take it. What I mean by that is if USub gets a combo, whether it be from a knee or not, finish the combo for maximum pushback and go right back into zoning from mid or full screen. When you go back into zoning don't use the ice shower, instead cancel jabs with block baiting a spin and wait for an opportunistic ice clone if Kabal should try to jump in because they anticipate a freeze. Mix it up and cancel into a freeze if Kabal should jump back into fireballs, run in and cancel into an ice clone again if the freeze misses. See how close and far distance can still be used to USub's advantage? He capitalizes on every second of Kabal's position and actions/reactions. This is why Kabal is better overall than USub, it takes much more effort for Sub to win.

I wish I had recording equipment like you guys so I could show this as I explain it but sadly I don't and I can't. I won't assign a ratio due to the fact that I don't believe in them; let's just say if I did give a ratio that it would be much more in favor of Kabal than what was said. IMO, Kabal would be in complete favor against anyone and an ice clone isn't going to dramatically change that. The spin is obviously the best move in the game and nearly beats out all character strategy with luck. Only a few can compare with their strategies and those characters are usually capable of doing high damage, like Human Smoke or Ermac. The bastard literally should almost be considered ban worthy.
 

ZAQ

Banned
His normals and combos have priority in almost every scenario, and he has a dash on top of that. Ice clone trading with a dash isn't enough to scrape by, let alone be even. If Kabals normals weren't so good, it would help greatly. His jk is just stupid, I don't think there is another jump kick in UMK3/MK2 that is so hard to punish with aaHKs aside from Baraka and Kano.
 
S

SuGaR

Guest
lol I don't think anyone will ever say it better than Lex "Kabal is UMK3 on autopilot"
 

Konqrr

Kital... Kabana... whatever, same thing.
I'm making a video of Liu getting raped by teleporting ninjas for just being Liu. It's such a bad matchup. He does have some good punishers against them, but they are so difficult that they are a moot point.