D'vorah General Discussion

[Arqwart]

After more play with Beetle Boy, I just don't see it being viable over Strep (to absolutely NO one's surprise). As a trap special, it fails to lock down opponents and grant consistent safety the way Strepsiptera does. As a character with shit pressure options, D'Vorah doesn't need a second damage special alongside Widow's Kiss. The cashing out of damage can be nice, but D'Vorah already has consistent ~30%+ options so Beetle is only adding 2-3% damage at most to optimal combos. D'Vorah's only grounded overhead is her F4 so HTB setups are pretty obvious (usually just D'Vorah jumping in with 1). The buff to amp'd Beetle not going away after arming is a welcome change but it's definitely not enough to warrant using the move over Strep now. D'Vorah has to sacrifice a lot of oki AND damage just to get the Beetle out in a timely enough fashion for it to be impactful; and even then, anyone knowledgeable enough can simply force a positive trade akin to Shao's rising hammer thingy. Just mash D'Vorah in the face with a big button / special that knocks down and she just used one bar to trade ~7% damage and reset neutral.

I'm sure it's tiring to see, but this is yet another variation special of D'Vorah's that needs some more love to be competitive. On that note, I'd like to toss out some ideas for D'Vorah's lacking variation options to see how yall feel. Throw out some of your ideas as well because Elder Gods know D'Vorah needs the love.

Bombardier Beetle
-Regular now crawls to the opponent until within leaping distance. No longer leaps immediately after arming.
-Block stun increased by a bit for both regular and amplified.
-Hit stun / combo state duration on hit increased a little for both regular and amplified.
-Damage when it hits low increased from 7% to 8% (same as when it's a mid).

Deadly Swarm
-Infested (df2) now applies a bug.
-Infested (df2) amplified now applies a bug with every tick of damage.
-Ground Swarm (db1) regular and amplified now apply a bug.

(Air) Ticking Time Bug
-Startup reduced from 95f total to 75f total. D'Vorah shoots the bug out faster, its travel speed is faster, and the hatching time is faster.
-Recovery reduced greatly. D'Vorah now begins her recovery descent immediately after shooting the bug instead of after it touches the ground. Around 40-45 frames of recovery in total instead of 65-70.
-Damage increased from 40 to 50.

Super Swarm (1)
-Now has regular, amplified, and double amplified versions.
-Startup frames / recovery greatly reduced. It's currently 97 frames total (49 startup, 48 recovery). Lower to maybe 60-70f total regular, 65-75f amp'd, 70-80f double amp'd.
-Bugs now attack opponents when D'Vorah blocks as well as when she's hit.
-Amplified: bugs deal constant damage around D'Vorah for the duration, ~1% per second.
-Double amplified: duration increased from ~5s to ~10s
-Double amplified: D'Vorah takes 10% reduced damage while the bugs are active.

Super Swarm (2)
-Duration increased from ~5s to ~10s.
-All bug-based attacks (Super Swarm, Strepsiptera, Bombardier Beetle, (Air) Ticking Time Bug, Fireflies, Ground Swarm, Swarm, and Infested) now deal 25% increased damage during Super Swarm.
-Bugs now attack opponents when D'Vorah blocks as well as when she's hit.

Fly By
-Recovery delay after ending Fly By greatly reduced (D'Vorah can now attack much faster after it ends).
-Attacks immediately after Fly By ends are now always Overheads.
-Minimum distance of flight reduced from ~3 character widths to ~1 character width.

Flippin' Out
-Damage increased from 40/38 to 50/40 for the two hits.
-Krushing Blow no longer pops up. Now is a splat knockdown that deals 280 damage.
-Hitbox now hits above D'Vorah as well instead of just in a cone in front of her.

 

[Second Saint]

Flippin' Out should be an armor breaker, triggers the KB when it breaks, and pops up higher than it currently does. I don't know if it would make it truly viable, but it's just such an obvious thing that I'm surprised it doesn't already have it.

Super Swarm- Make it faster so you can put it out from a combo and continue pressure. Make the current effect meterless and twice as long (minimum), add an amplified version that adds 5 damage when the opponent blocks anything in addition to the original 10 damage when she's hit. This would give her terrifying chip damage.

Let's just theory craft it and say you're running Super Swarm + Strep and get your buff out, land a hit, and do a really basic pressure sequence after the combo [starter] amp db1, 21~strep. Something like d1~ovi (strep bug) 21222. That little sequence is totally safe and had 55 chip damage added because it's 11hits long, the whole sequence doing 115 chip damage. Add in staggers and a character like this would grind you to dust.

Alternatively, Super Swarm could promote an entirely different playstyle that D'vorah doesn't get to do currently by buffing her projectiles, particularly the recovery on fireflies so she could actually zone or counter-zone someone, and the base effect would be fantastic in a zoning war of attrition.

Parasite Strings should be base kit, but the KB's are still an ability.

 

[Arqwart]

Flippin' Out should be an armor breaker, triggers the KB when it breaks, and pops up higher than it currently does. I don't know if it would make it truly viable, but it's just such an obvious thing that I'm surprised it doesn't already have it.

Super Swarm- Make it faster so you can put it out from a combo and continue pressure. Make the current effect meterless and twice as long (minimum), add an amplified version that adds 5 damage when the opponent blocks anything in addition to the original 10 damage when she's hit. This would give her terrifying chip damage.

Let's just theory craft it and say you're running Super Swarm + Strep and get your buff out, land a hit, and do a really basic pressure sequence after the combo [starter] amp db1, 21~strep. Something like d1~ovi (strep bug) 21222. That little sequence is totally safe and had 55 chip damage added because it's 11hits long, the whole sequence doing 115 chip damage. Add in staggers and a character like this would grind you to dust.

Alternatively, Super Swarm could promote an entirely different playstyle that D'vorah doesn't get to do currently by buffing her projectiles, particularly the recovery on fireflies so she could actually zone or counter-zone someone, and the base effect would be fantastic in a zoning war of attrition.

Parasite Strings should be base kit, but the KB's are still an ability.

I think you and I are of the same mind on Super Swarm in that it needs a fucking identity of some kind (and not to mention some actual power worth something). As it stands, it's one of the top 5 worst moves in the game easily. I'm down for it being either a chip monster move as you noted or a general pressure damage move ala Noxious Reptile constant AoE damage as I noted in #1. That, or make it a bug enhancer as we both said. I know my #2 idea was damage for bug moves, but I could totally see Super Swarm making bug moves faster instead (and I'd actually prefer it over the damage buff, honestly). Imagining a pseudo-zoner variation where Fireflies isn't one of the worst projectiles in the game and Ground Swarm isn't a gimmick at best makes me happy. It could add some speed to her startup and recovery on bug projectile attacks (Strep, Beetle, Fireflies, Ground Swarm, Air Ticking Time Bug). I wanna see some angry, glowing red Fireflies zooming across the screen.

Parasite annoys me. I've been saying basically since release in 2019 that all the variation moves that give strings should be baseline, but it's clear NRS isn't interested in doing that so adding the strings to her base kit isn't something I see happening. Maybe Parasite could give more options than just the 3 or alter her base normals in some way instead of only adding string extensions? Could see something like a B3F4 that's an overhead ender to give her a baseline 50/50 string (would complement Beetle and Flippin' Out really well) or a F1D3 that's a low ender (also complements Flippin' Out). Another idea I LOVE is for it to make her like Venomous from MKX where her ovipositor attacks all do a small stacking poison. Considering it adds 3 strings based on the ovipositors, it'd make sense and allow her to focus heavily on her Katipo stagger gameplay.

 

[Second Saint]

I think you and I are of the same mind on Super Swarm in that it needs a fucking identity of some kind (and not to mention some actual power worth something). As it stands, it's one of the top 5 worst moves in the game easily. I'm down for it being either a chip monster move as you noted or a general pressure damage move ala Noxious Reptile constant AoE damage as I noted in #1. That, or make it a bug enhancer as we both said. I know my #2 idea was damage for bug moves, but I could totally see Super Swarm making bug moves faster instead (and I'd actually prefer it over the damage buff, honestly). Imagining a pseudo-zoner variation where Fireflies isn't one of the worst projectiles in the game and Ground Swarm isn't a gimmick at best makes me happy. It could add some speed to her startup and recovery on bug projectile attacks (Strep, Beetle, Fireflies, Ground Swarm, Air Ticking Time Bug). I wanna see some angry, glowing red Fireflies zooming across the screen.

Parasite annoys me. I've been saying basically since release in 2019 that all the variation moves that give strings should be baseline, but it's clear NRS isn't interested in doing that so adding the strings to her base kit isn't something I see happening. Maybe Parasite could give more options than just the 3 or alter her base normals in some way instead of only adding string extensions? Could see something like a B3F4 that's an overhead ender to give her a baseline 50/50 string (would complement Beetle and Flippin' Out really well) or a F1D3 that's a low ender (also complements Flippin' Out). Another idea I LOVE is for it to make her like Venomous from MKX where her ovipositor attacks all do a small stacking poison. Considering it adds 3 strings based on the ovipositors, it'd make sense and allow her to focus heavily on her Katipo stagger gameplay.

Realistically, you would have to buff Super Swarm so incredibly much to make it worth taking. It doesn't just have to be good, it has to be comparably good to Teleport, while not having the option to take Deadly Swarm.

But man, D'vorah's zoning potential if she wasn't saddled with Fireflies and it's what 45 or 50 recovery frames? With Strep? You could play a really fun zoning game with that.

Edit: 51! recovery frames on Fireflies. That's insane.

 

[Arqwart]

The more time goes by, the more I can't justify Widow's Kiss. The extra strings (F22D1+3 and 121+3 especially) feel mandatory to make D'Vorah not feel like garbage. F22D1+3 gives her way more pressure options instead of having to spend meter on Katipo or risking the Infested gimmick. 121+3 gives her a punish KB. Not much else to say about that one except it's just so damn good considering it's off her fastest standing button.

The cherry on top is that extra strings also allows room for Deadly Swarm for the throw KB and recall kill power.

 

[Second Saint]

The more time goes by, the more I can't justify Widow's Kiss. The extra strings (F22D1+3 and 121+3 especially) feel mandatory to make D'Vorah not feel like garbage. F22D1+3 gives her way more pressure options instead of having to spend meter on Katipo or risking the Infested gimmick. 121+3 gives her a punish KB. Not much else to say about that one except it's just so damn good considering it's off her fastest standing button.

The cherry on top is that extra strings also allows room for Deadly Swarm for the throw KB and recall kill power.

I find them about equal. If I want more damage, setups, and neutral, it's all about WK + Strep. If I need pressure more than I need neutral, parasite, deadly swarm and strep are the way to go.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Widow is more damage on every hit (a lot of it unbreakable, at that), gives 21 a function, lets you punish certain stuff from even full screen (like a ducked Scorpion spear, or between Frost's BF3 projectiles, or on reaction to certain startups like Liu's fireballs lighting up), gives you a solid/reliable return on antiairing someone with s2, gives Bombardier Beetle some use (it's still not as good as Strep, but does more dmg than puddle inside a widow combo, and combos into widow on hit in neutral)...

It does a lot. But I do miss s1 being able to do any damage, even if just once with a KB. You could Widow + Parasite, but life without pooping any bugs is kind of boring.

 

[Zviko]

The more time goes by, the more I can't justify Widow's Kiss. The extra strings (F22D1+3 and 121+3 especially) feel mandatory to make D'Vorah not feel like garbage. F22D1+3 gives her way more pressure options instead of having to spend meter on Katipo or risking the Infested gimmick. 121+3 gives her a punish KB. Not much else to say about that one except it's just so damn good considering it's off her fastest standing button.

The cherry on top is that extra strings also allows room for Deadly Swarm for the throw KB and recall kill power.

I still think Arachnophobia is the way to go. It has everything any other variation has + it gives her the anti zoning, full screen combo starter and anti air combo conversions. Ending combos with a +4 restand and throw KB loaded is pressure enough for strike-throw mix up. You have the overhead as well. Also I noticed I don't even use F22 that much because I don't really need to. You can just jump 1 all day long which jails into F13. It's really hard to anti air or punish especially neutral jump 1. MK11 D'Vorah doesn't even need mids imo.

 

[DoDaMuSiC]

Overall strepsiptera, parasite and deadly swarm is the best variation, but there are some matchups where you must have teleport on or otherwise it feels like an uphill battle (cetrion and frost imo being the 2 most difficulty), and then having either deadly swarm or strepsiptera alongside it. Me personally i prefer to go with deadly swarm cuz i feel that throw kb is her most important move which helps her so much in her strike/throw game. The only character i run teleport + strepsiptera is Sheeva because teleport helps against her fireball stance and ex strepsiptera completely nullify her stomp

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Sheeva because teleport helps against her fireball stance and ex strepsiptera completely nullify her stomp

Any Sheeva stomp delay makes Strep unreliable - you take 100 dmg, Sheeva takes 30 dmg, you often don't get a combo out of it, and this cost you meter. And if they're not delaying, you can just dash out of the way and get a full regular combo.

 

[DoDaMuSiC]

Any Sheeva stomp delay makes Strep unreliable - you take 100 dmg, Sheeva takes 30 dmg, you often don't get a combo out of it, and this cost you meter. And if they're not delaying, you can just dash out of the way and get a full regular combo.

Its not about the damage or getting a combo, but being able to stop her from doing stomps in a row, even if she does more damage, it will be your turn next and she gotta hold your pressure afterwards.
And if sheeva is using enhanced stomp you cant just dash out to avoid it, its a 33/33/33 at the end of the day, and with strepsiptera you dont have to worry at all with that mix

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Its not about the damage or getting a combo, but being able to stop her from doing stomps in a row, even if she does more damage, it will be your turn next and she gotta hold your pressure afterwards.

That's a really costly way to stop her stomping for a second, because you don't get assured pressure - often the Strep pushes her backwards, to where she can just get out of your range, because you're having to get up from getting stomped.

And if sheeva is using enhanced stomp you cant just dash out to avoid it, its a 33/33/33 at the end of the day

Yes, it's a 1 in 3 guess that Sheeva has to make, with low dmg as her reward. It's annoying, but those odds aren't exactly in her favor.

Strep is an option vs stomp, sure, it's just not a good one because it costs meter for an outcome where the only certain thing is that you took more damage than them.

 

[DoDaMuSiC]

That's a really costly way to stop her stomping for a second, because you don't get assured pressure - often the Strep pushes her backwards, to where she can just get out of your range, because you're having to get up from getting stomped.

Yes you do, its ALWAYS your turn after this trade, mid animation stomp isn’t a hard knockdown, you can just wake up buttons every time into f1/s1 staggers, f2 shimmy, poke into ovipositor mindgames or throws.

Strep is an option vs stomp, sure, it's just not a good one because it costs meter for an outcome where the only certain thing is that you took more damage than them.

To me spending a bar to fully beat one of the most broken moves ever made by nrs (which some characters dont have any option at all other than pray) into guaranteed pressure afterwards sounds pretty good to me, and essentially with chip damage/throws, at the end you did more damage than sheeva.
Especially in a game with regen meter overtime where you dont have to worry about meter at all cuz after 10 seconds you gonna have your bar again

 

[FeverAyeAye]

Don't think strep ruins the stomp, but at least it puts a seed of doubt into their tiny, shokan minds. I like catching them with teleport before they exit the screen.

 

[Marinjuana]

I found a nice little setup with Bombadier Beetle that covers all of the wakeup options.

 

[Act III]

My wife.