General/Other - Dualist Dualist cancel adv, frame data, bugs & balance recommendations.

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Dualist cancel adv, frame data, bugs & balance recommendations.

I made this thread for NRS and not for TYM or other Liu Kang players.

I choose to play characters with complexity and depth that keep my attention for the life of the game. These characters, when done well can showcase the talent that the NRS designers/paulo have and the innovation/evolution of the Mortal Kombat series.

I see the Dualist variation of LK as one of the most involved characters MKX has. His other two variations are simpler to use and have more obvious advantages like fireball cancels, launching and safer specials with meter, parries, zoning etc…

Dualist does not fall into a traditional archetype. He isn’t a zoner, he likely excels in rush down, however his tool set allows him to control space, zone and whiff punish differently than the rest of the cast.

In summary….I want the see Dualist be viable and succeed in the overall meta so that for the execution required, he is rewarded appropriately.

Lets start with what makes Dualist unique.

Metamorphosis (dd1)

112 dd1 on hit grants 11 frames of link time with a good amount of pushback limiting his followup options mid screen.

b12 on hit grants 10 frames of link time with a good amount of pushback but slightly less than 112.

This allows certain grounded combos and frame traps unique to this variation.

Mid screen combos:
112 dd1 f4 = 2 frame link
112 dd1 d2 = 5 frame link
b12 dd1 f4 = 1 frame link
b12 dd1 d2 = 4 frame link
b12 dd1 d1 = 2 frame link

corner combos that are not possible mid screen:
112 dd1 11 = 4 frame link
112 dd1 b1 = 3 frame link
112 dd1 3 = 1 frame link
112 dd1 f2 = 2 frame link
112 dd1 2 = 2 frame link
112 dd1 f1 = 6 frame link
b12 dd1 f1 = 5 frame link

True block strings:
f213 dd1 f1 = +6
112 dd1 = 0

Recommended mod:

• Increase link time 112 from 11 frames to 13. This will allow 4 new attacks to connect but only in the corner. b3, d3, d4, u4.
• Reason:
  • These are not optimal combos starters nor easy to hit but this will allow the above listed links to be slightly more consistent.

Now lets discuss specials and normals that have consistent reproducible issues. After each bug, I have recommended slight gameplay modifications that would improve/fix the bug and make the move slightly more viable.

Yin (db3)
Bug:

• Healing says 0.03 when it is actually 0.3
• The healing also goes up with damage buffs from certain characters…not sure if intended. This video showcases this.

Recommended mod:

• Reduce startup on actual healing from ~30 frames to 10 frames
  • Reason: This move is arguably worse than Cyborgs at the moment and the opportunity to use it is even less frequent since his zoning in this variation is meh.
• Make special/ X-ray cancelable like Cyborg in Injustice
  • Reason: At least if special/xray cancelable, I can use armor to avoid getting punished and or bait movement with more options.

Dragon’s Roar/Dragon’s Wrath (db2, eh db2) - mid
Bug:

• Whiffs on many d1s and d3s both male and female. Armor doesn’t help as the hitbox is still the same.

Dragon Fist (b1) - mid,mid, two hits
Bug:

• First whiffs on some characters crouch blocking at point blank range.

Hammer Kicks (f4) - low, mid, 2 hit
Bug:

• Second hit whiffs on some crouching opponents even after blocking the first hit.
• Second hit whiffs even on hit from max range causing a window allowing LK to be punished.

Quick Strike (f1) - high, 6 frames
Recommended mod:

• Change its properties from high to mid.
  • Reason: 123 is the complete string. There is a gap between 12 and 3. Most you get of it is f12 BK or f12 dd1 which is not linkable or safe on block. Even f12 db2 has a gap. Raiden has a 6 frame mid that leads to 35-40% or 30% and frame advantage. Most kang gets is 14% and some frame advantage. At this point…it is a useless move. It rather make them guess a 50/50 with slower normals than go for a f1 punish.

Low Solar Flare (bf3) - low
Recommended mod:

• Reduce startup from 22 frames to 19 frames so its the same speed as his high fireball.
  • Reason: Its hard to justify its current speed. This variation is not going to ever be a full zoner, but this move is currently almost useless.

Enhanced Solar Flare (eh bf1) - mid
Recommended mod:

• Reduce pushback slightly
  • Due to the current pushback, the bug where the second hit of f4 whiffs happens more consistently mid screen.

Dark Sphere (eh bf1)
This video showcases the corner glitch that happens on some stages.

Recommended mod:

• Corners should not cause orbs to explode prematurely.
  • Reason: Let me use my tools!

Soul sphere and Dark sphere and low version (bf1, bf3)
Recommended mod:

• After placing an orb on screen, allow LK to cancel strings into an orb cancel (cancel = fdb1 or db1)

example combo and setup:

113 rc b12 f213 orb
run up
b12 CANCEL - cancel being db1 and stopping the orb that was placed after the combo ender f213.

• Reason: I see so much more potential with this as an option and I honestly thought it was in the game and surprised that it wasn’t. I feel it would open up his trap/setup game to a level worthy of the execution it requires to execute.

Yang (db3)
Causes a damage boost and reduces the timer on orb explosions. Visual cue is glowing red hands.
Bug:

• After a charge of any level, upon blocking any attack the damage boost goes away while the glowing red hands and reduced orb timer remain.

Recommended mod:

• Allow damage to stay on block but all buffs go away on hit.
  • It takes 2-3 seconds to charge fully and you cannot dash or run cancel this attack.

I'm just going to tag people who may be able to help me continue to find bugs as well as potentially get this information into the decision makers hands.

@Pig Of The Hut
@FOREVER EL1TE
@colt
@GGA 16 Bit
@GGA pimpimjim
@GGA Saucy Jack
@Phosferrax
@AK Harold

Cheers everyone!

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

If anyone else finds bugs or has videos to add value to this I will add to the OP

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

If anyone else finds bugs or has videos to add value to this I will add to the OP

Put it on Twitter and tag Ed boon or something idk how NRS work lol

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Put it on Twitter and tag Ed boon or something idk how NRS work lol

Put it on Twitter and tag Ed boon or something idk how NRS work lol

I don't do twitter

 

[Karnage]

maybe you should? agree with the dragons roar fix, highly frustrating.

 

[Karnage]

also could you add, add 1 hit of armor to MB Shaolin-Ferno (flame fist) on startup (works how reptiles mb invisiblity works, i exclusively play Flame Fist so i cant comment on dualist)

 

[Karnage]

Another bug, in flame fist mb fireball whiffs on a few charcters even though it's a mid

 

[pretty flocko]

Hey guys I was wondering how likely is it 2 get any of the things your asking for 2 help duelist and make it better cuz when I got this game I thought duelist was the most bad ass thing in the game but there's hardly any reason 2 play it other then 2 have fun hoping that they will actually give us some dirt 2 actually work with

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Hey guys I was wondering how likely is it 2 get any of the things your asking for 2 help duelist and make it better cuz when I got this game I thought duelist was the most bad ass thing in the game but there's hardly any reason 2 play it other then 2 have fun hoping that they will actually give us some dirt 2 actually work with

I know that some of the glitches will get fixed like the orbs exploding on some stages...but other than that I have no idea.

 

[perfectghast]

I would like to see EX soul sphere have it properties changed to: EX BF1 now detonates on hit and is still cancelable. Why? It would add to his kit in spacing, opponents would not be able to run in for free and it opens up new combos for using meter. Thoughts?

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

I would like to see EX soul sphere have it properties changed to: EX BF1 now detonates on hit and is still cancelable. Why? It would add to his kit in spacing, opponents would not be able to run in for free and it opens up new combos for using meter. Thoughts?

I agree with this. i also want to be able to cancel a fireball off a block or hit string like its own special.

 

[pretty flocko]

That would be dope

 

[Red Reaper]

@Pig Of The Hut
@FOREVER EL1TE
@colt
@GGA 16 Bit
@GGA pimpimjim
@GGA Saucy Jack
@Phosferrax
@AK Harold

Cheers everyone!

No tag for @XBlades ? Earthrealm's last hope for freedom...

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

whoops

 

[KH_Seraph]

Barely noticed this post after I posted my rant in the other Dualist thread haha. I just wanted to bump this for extra exposure. He needs halp!

 

[The PantyChrist]

I haven't used dualist Liu in a while but I'd love to see more of him. Does his orb truly have no blockstun? If so maybe it should have some

 

[Conflict_90]

whoops

I actually just started playing this variation a few days ago and I love it. All the bugs I found were already exhibited by you in the post. If I come across something new I will gladly share.

 

[MortySeinfeld]

I don't know if this is intended or not, but I believe the dark fireballs should not trade with any projectiles or objects. Like the corner glitch, I think there were a few things overlooked (projectiles, throwable interactibles, corner interactibles).

Dark Fireball cannot pass through Sub-Zero's Ice-Clone for example. Maybe this was intended, but I wouldn't think so.

I believe upon activation it should trade with the ice-clone.

You listed everything else I would've suggested, good job Fly. I also hope this variation can be fixed/updated because i've been enjoying using it despite some of its issues.

 

[Conflict_90]

I don't know if this is intended or not, but I believe the dark fireballs should not trade with any projectiles or objects. Like the corner glitch, I think there were a few things overlooked.

Dark Fireball cannot pass through Sub-Zero's Ice-Clone for example. Maybe this was intended, but I wouldn't think so.

I believe upon activation it should trade with the ice-clone.

You listed everything else I would've suggested, good job Fly. I also hope this variation can be fixed/updated because i've been enjoying using it despite some of its issues.

I'm somewhat new to the offline scene. What can I do to aid in getting this matter rectified?

 

[MortySeinfeld]

I'm somewhat new to the offline scene. What can I do to aid in getting this matter rectified?

I'm not entirely sure, all we can do is make a reasonable case for why something is either a bug or how we think things can be improved.

If it is noticed by a tester or developer, maybe things can move up the chain of command at NRS and changes are made (perhaps with the release of Tremor and/or Predator). All we can do is be vocal and make reasonable suggestions a designer would agree with and hope they are noticed.

 

[KH_Seraph]

Dark Fireball cannot pass through Sub-Zero's Ice-Clone for example. Maybe this was intended, but I wouldn't think so.

I believe upon activation it should trade with the ice-clone.

It's also worth noting that it also gets utterly destroyed by Sub's enhanced iceball. He's SO FUN, but so incomplete.

 

[Conflict_90]

I'm not entirely sure, all we can do is make a reasonable case for why something is either a bug or how we think things can be improved.

If it is noticed by a tester or developer, maybe things can move up the chain of command at NRS and changes are made (perhaps with the release of Tremor and/or Predator). All we can do is be vocal and make reasonable suggestions a designer would agree with and hope they are noticed.

I plan on representing him in the next couple of tournaments. So I will do what I can.

 

[MortySeinfeld]

I have another suggestion that isn't entirely related to balance, but would help with Dualist.

There should be a visual indicator underneath the health bar that displays which stance (light/dark) you are currently in. There are times when I haven't switched variations in a while and I feel compelled to do a block string into stance switch to ensure I can pressure/combo accordingly.

Unrelated to Liu Kang, there should also be a visual indicator for Kotal Kahn in Blood God if any Totems (and which one) are actively on the field. Since you are unable to cast an additional Totem until the one presently on the field is inactive, it would be helpful to know if a totem is active off screen so you don't miss opportunities on block/hit strings/combo's.

 

[pretty flocko]

There is a indicator if you look at his head band and belt while he's in light mode they are white if he's in dark mode they are black idk if you already know that but yeah

 

[Predannok]

Unrelated to Liu Kang, there should also be a visual indicator for Kotal Kahn in Blood God if any Totems (and which one) are actively on the field. Since you are unable to cast an additional Totem until the one presently on the field is inactive, it would be helpful to know if a totem is active off screen so you don't miss opportunities on block/hit strings/combo's.

There is a Visual indicator Blood totem = there a Red aura around Kotals wrist and chest. Obsidian totem = Purple Aura, Crystal totem = blueish aura. when they go away u hear something cracking and the aura goes away.