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Dr. Quinzel's Dossier (Matchup Thread)

RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
Answers then? dont just talk stupid without any backup bro, probably another guy that beat one aquaman in ranked and thinks its a winning mu
I just listed my rationale. If you'd read our replies you'd know I use Aqua as a backup and don't play Harley much, but have training partners who do. If you need help reading, I can't really help you.

I'm not judging this based on some trash Harley's I've played online or how good/bad I think I am with Aquaman. I'm judging this based on the tools each character has and how they can be used at a high level--critical thinking. It's obvious you struggle with this MU and that's ok. But set that pride aside to think it through more than "blahrrr he has trait and hes good durrr" which is all I've really seen thus far.

Read. Think. Respond. It's not hard.
 
Reactions: 24K

Azxrath.

Noob
I just listed my rationale. If you'd read our replies you'd know I use Aqua as a backup and don't play Harley much, but have training partners who do. If you need help reading, I can't really help you.

I'm not judging this based on some trash Harley's I've played online or how good/bad I think I am with Aquaman. I'm judging this based on the tools each character has and how they can be used at a high level--critical thinking. It's obvious you struggle with this MU and that's ok. But set that pride aside to think it through more than "blahrrr he has trait and hes good durrr" which is all I've really seen thus far.

Read. Think. Respond. It's not hard.
so, you're answer is his trait has a long cooldown and her zoning counters his? because she gets a 4% punish on ftd from like close to half screen how about you just dont use ftd then? she is forced to walk aquaman down and dont even say oh no wakeups cause noone has a damn wakeup. he out footsies her, he out zones her terribly, he can anti air her you're obviously just trash at doing it, when she does get a hit he gets out her combo and either gets a punish or offence and he gets to jump at her for free to start offence whenever he wants. what about that is good? so all that is put to the side because she gets a 4% punish on ftd? LMFAO
 

Eldagrin

Add me on PS4 if you want to play some games
I just listed my rationale. If you'd read our replies you'd know I use Aqua as a backup and don't play Harley much, but have training partners who do. If you need help reading, I can't really help you.

I'm not judging this based on some trash Harley's I've played online or how good/bad I think I am with Aquaman. I'm judging this based on the tools each character has and how they can be used at a high level--critical thinking. It's obvious you struggle with this MU and that's ok. But set that pride aside to think it through more than "blahrrr he has trait and hes good durrr" which is all I've really seen thus far.

Read. Think. Respond. It's not hard.
I don't think a lot of us Harley players downplay her, I think she's greatly improved in this game tbh.

Saying Aqua is a bad MU doesn't mean I think she's bad. To go more in to specifics, Aqua out footsies Harley pretty handily and even if you do get the hit/punish all of your TS combos are pretty null, you get full combo punished for even trying to do a TS combo to Aqua who has trait and 2u3/f23 are also easily traited by Aquaman players who know the match up.

Harley also loses the projectile war pretty badly if you eat a FTD on a bad read, FTD MB trident toss is about 230-250 dmg I don't remember the exact number. At full screen water shield also eats up hyenas and cupcakes since they are projectiles.

That said, the MU doesn't feel nearly as bad as it was in IGAU.
 

Azxrath.

Noob
I don't think a lot of us Harley players downplay her, I think she's greatly improved in this game tbh.

Saying Aqua is a bad MU doesn't mean I think she's bad. To go more in to specifics, Aqua out footsies Harley pretty handily and even if you do get the hit/punish all of your TS combos are pretty null, you get full combo punished for even trying to do a TS combo to Aqua who has trait and 2u3/f23 are also easily traited by Aquaman players who know the match up.

Harley also loses the projectile war pretty badly if you eat a FTD on a bad read, FTD MB trident toss is about 230-250 dmg I don't remember the exact number. At full screen water shield also eats up hyenas and cupcakes since they are projectiles.

That said, the MU doesn't feel nearly as bad as it was in IGAU.
u punish ftd with 4% from closer than half screen bro stop downplayin
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
As far as the Aquaman MU, I think you guys are fighting over minor things. A win is a win with Harley or any mid-tier character. If you have to do it with the guns, do so, strings, do so. From what I've seen- Harley doesn't want to get close to AM, so as with Deadshot- when it's Harley vs DS/AM prepare for a LONG, slow, boring match, but it is not unwinable- it is a battle of attrition.

Ps: Atricious is not a favorable matchup for Harley- he shits all over her.. pick up a pocket Wonder Woman for that pick- it will get exposed that she is his main counter and will expose him right out of top tier/favorable pick.
 

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
IMO... So far this is how I feel, of course this will change somehow since we're just a month in.

In her favor:
Cheetah
Scarecrow
Gorilla Grodd
Black Canary (this one might be even)
Bane
Robin

Even:
Wonder Woman
Flash
Catwoman
Superman
Atrocitus
Batman (this one could either go losing of winning in the long run IMO, it's very even atm I would say)
Green Lantern

Losing:
Darkseid
Aquaman
Black Adam
Supergirl
Poison Ivy (could be even but I see it as a slight advantage for Ivy)
Deadshot
Dr. Fate

Not sure yet:
Green Arrow - this one is very annoying for her but I don't think it's that bad, it definitely feels losing right now but nothing crazy... Also I lack more match-up experience
Blue Beetle - never played this MU
Firestorm- never played this MU
Cyborg - never played this MU
Captain Cold - very little experience and I felt I had an advantage everytime I played a Captain Cold player but not sure yet.
Joker - I can see this being a winning MU but I lack more experience.
 

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
As far as the Aquaman MU, I think you guys are fighting over minor things. A win is a win with Harley or any mid-tier character. If you have to do it with the guns, do so, strings, do so. From what I've seen- Harley doesn't want to get close to AM, so as with Deadshot- when it's Harley vs DS/AM prepare for a LONG, slow, boring match, but it is not unwinable- it is a battle of attrition.

Ps: Atricious is not a favorable matchup for Harley- he shits all over her.. pick up a pocket Wonder Woman for that pick- it will get exposed that she is his main counter and will expose him right out of top tier/favorable pick.
Pocked Wonder Woman? What does exactly Wonder Woman do so well against him? I play both characters and Harley does WAY better in this MU in my opinion.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
On of Harley's greatest weaknesses is her wake up game, and some characters the wake up is where they shine. Lost tendencies of certain characters and how they like to wake up- how to bait it- and what your punishes are.

Infamous wake uppers:
-Batman and his slide
-Blue Beetle and his shield charge
-Atrocious and his walking punches
-Superman and his scoop slam
 

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
On of Harley's greatest weaknesses is her wake up game, and some characters the wake up is where they shine. Lost tendencies of certain characters and how they like to wake up- how to bait it- and what your punishes are.

Infamous wake uppers:
-Batman and his slide
-Blue Beetle and his shield charge
-Atrocious and his walking punches
-Superman and his scoop slam
I don't know what you meant with that post. Are you asking for advice to deal with those wake-ups?
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
Pocked Wonder Woman? What does exactly Wonder Woman do so well against him? I play both characters and Harley does WAY better in this MU in my opinion.
WW is a footsies heavy character that has a fantastic mid range game and can ultimately punish and out last anything he throws at her. If he starts his punch in string and combo a bit far off he is open to full shield toss starter combos, in an instant on a minor or panic jump in or out he can be lassoed, if he starts his strings too far away, he can be lassoed on reflex, she can absorb Daxter trait shots, and has a fully invincible wake up option with her air shield charge (that can also be MB). You can literally beat him by paralysis (where he is scared to do or throw anything out).

Harley does well in a poke trade, but since one of her glaring flaws is waking up- once you get a runaway Atrocious on your ass- 8/10 it's gg.. you are guessing 50/50's, tick damage, and unrelenting pressure, if he knows how to use his trait (much like Batman uses his bats) to keep pressure or cover holes in his offensive pressure- same outcome.

In closing- WW's neutral tools, punishes, punishes to combo potential, and overhead have the edge over anything Harley can hope to throw at him, or defend against. I love Harley to death- damn near to a fault- this MU is just outside her scope.
 

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
WW is a footsies heavy character that has a fantastic mid range game and can ultimately punish and out last anything he throws at her. If he starts his punch in string and combo a bit far off he is open to full shield toss starter combos, in an instant on a minor or panic jump in or out he can be lassoed, if he starts his strings too far away, he can be lassoed on reflex, she can absorb Daxter trait shots, and has a fully invincible wake up option with her air shield charge (that can also be MB). You can literally beat him by paralysis (where he is scared to do or throw anything out).

Harley does well in a poke trade, but since one of her glaring flaws is waking up- once you get a runaway Atrocious on your ass- 8/10 it's gg.. you are guessing 50/50's, tick damage, and unrelenting pressure, if he knows how to use his trait (much like Batman uses his bats) to keep pressure or cover holes in his offensive pressure- same outcome.

In closing- WW's neutral tools, punishes, punishes to combo potential, and overhead have the edge over anything Harley can hope to throw at him, or defend against. I love Harley to death- damn near to a fault- this MU is just outside her scope.
Do you mean a whiffed F2 from Atrocitus!? Why would a good Atrocitus player ever whiff this move?
Her neutral is good but Atrocitus' is definitely better than hers, not to mention he hits harder into a trait activation. Parrying his trait shots is good but an atrocitus player will zone you tf out with buddle when he has trait on, which blows up her parry. You're acting like Atrocitus has to get in on her and has a bad neutral and up-close game, which is not the case at all.

I mean... Waking up with block is an option lol, it's not like you can't block on wake-up.
Harley can whiff punish him for better and meterless damage if he ever happens to whiff his strings, she has better meterless damage, she can check him with gunshots and air gunshots, she can do cupcakes after a blocked puddle.
 

Kotal_Wannabe

AKA AndyPandy
I don't have much trouble with Atrocitus, possibly I've not been fighting decent ones, but the matchup for me is abusing harley's air pistols and straight guns. When his trait comes out, he usually wants to get in, I've got ample meter to push block his mixups and keep his trait at bay. After that it's about punishing any mistakes he makes while he's trying to get in. I don't feel this is a particularly hard matchup for harley, but feel free to disagree, the game is new and I've maybe not been fighting the best opponents.

Aquaman on the other hand is a nightmare for harley, you very rarely want to jump in on a good aquaman, instead feign a jump in but instead use air guns, till they get the message that they are not gonna have an easy time anti airing. On the other hand if you abuse air guns too much, watch out cause he can easily punish with tentacle on your descent. Aqman definitely has the advantage in this matchup, he can punish virtually everything harley can do and when you manage to get a lucky combo on him, he can cancel it with trait and often d1 combo punish you for trying.
 
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The Celebrity

Professional Googler
I honestly think she goes even in the Aquaman matchup. He has some strong play vs Harley; b1 spacing vs her B2 spacing, heavily out-damages in zoning, but I think if you play knowing that and play to Harley's strengths its not bad. Don't put yourself in a spot to trade projectiles with him, you'll lose that everytime. Work your way to around midscreen by dashing after FTDs until you're at a distance where straight shot can punish it, and then utilize the hit advantage from that to get going. The damage itself is pointless, but the hit advantage from landing it at this range can give you opportunity for another gunshot on block, cupcake, etc.. This is her range to feel comfortable.

On top of that, since all BnBs as Harley are meterless, really teach yourself air dodging + push blocking. You'll almost always have meter for anytime aquaman lands a stray hit, or starts up trident rush on your block. I think its ALWAYS worth push blocking AM if he ever meter burns a trident rush. Him losing a bar is worse than you losing one. If he lands a B12xxDB2 EX, wait until the start of a tell for B3 (his standard BnB) and air dodge backwards. If you do it too often, he can read it and punish you, which is why I say to wait for the tell. You'll escape the BnB and you'll be left at a good range with advantage.

Likewise, anytime you land a hit, its very easy to pop him up with TS, cartwheel before he can react with trait. Shorten your combos to 1xxTS 1 as your punish, as long as you hit him with the TS low before he traits, he wont break it.
 

Eldagrin

Add me on PS4 if you want to play some games
I honestly think she goes even in the Aquaman matchup. He has some strong play vs Harley; b1 spacing vs her B2 spacing, heavily out-damages in zoning, but I think if you play knowing that and play to Harley's strengths its not bad. Don't put yourself in a spot to trade projectiles with him, you'll lose that everytime. Work your way to around midscreen by dashing after FTDs until you're at a distance where straight shot can punish it, and then utilize the hit advantage from that to get going. The damage itself is pointless, but the hit advantage from landing it at this range can give you opportunity for another gunshot on block, cupcake, etc.. This is her range to feel comfortable.

On top of that, since all BnBs as Harley are meterless, really teach yourself air dodging + push blocking. You'll almost always have meter for anytime aquaman lands a stray hit, or starts up trident rush on your block. I think its ALWAYS worth push blocking AM if he ever meter burns a trident rush. Him losing a bar is worse than you losing one. If he lands a B12xxDB2 EX, wait until the start of a tell for B3 (his standard BnB) and air dodge backwards. If you do it too often, he can read it and punish you, which is why I say to wait for the tell. You'll escape the BnB and you'll be left at a good range with advantage.

Likewise, anytime you land a hit, its very easy to pop him up with TS, cartwheel before he can react with trait. Shorten your combos to 1xxTS 1 as your punish, as long as you hit him with the TS low before he traits, he wont break it.
It's the pop up hit at the end of TS 1 that he can't trait after, he can trait at literally any point before the launching hit of TS 1 and then d1 punish you.
 

The Celebrity

Professional Googler
It's the pop up hit at the end of TS 1 that he can't trait after, he can trait at literally any point before the launching hit of TS 1 and then d1 punish you.
Shit yeah, nvm, looked back at it and you're right. My sparring partner must've just been reacting slowly with trait.

I don't think thats the end of the world though, even if they're slipping out of most BnBs, you can easily backdash during TS instead of pianoing the cartwheel in. There's definitely a mindgame there more than just Aquaman getting a free punish for using trait. I feel as though they'd have a similar reaction to us always have meter and being able to air escape out of their 1-bar BnB.
 

Kotal_Wannabe

AKA AndyPandy
Shit yeah, nvm, looked back at it and you're right. My sparring partner must've just been reacting slowly with trait.

I don't think thats the end of the world though, even if they're slipping out of most BnBs, you can easily backdash during TS instead of pianoing the cartwheel in. There's definitely a mindgame there more than just Aquaman getting a free punish for using trait. I feel as though they'd have a similar reaction to us always have meter and being able to air escape out of their 1-bar BnB.
You act as though getting in vs a good aqman was easy in the first place.. To have to end your combo before it starts when he has every tool to keep you out is a ludicrous for an "even" matchup as you call it. If you want I've got a buddy who plays aqman at high level since inj1, he'll make you wish you never picked harley as a main lol
 

The Celebrity

Professional Googler
You act as though getting in vs a good aqman was easy in the first place.. To have to end your combo before it starts when he has every tool to keep you out is a ludicrous for an "even" matchup as you call it. If you want I've got a buddy who plays aqman at high level since inj1, he'll make you wish you never picked harley as a main lol
Sure, I'll play him. PM me his GT and which platform. I'd be curious as to how he plays differently from my sparring partner's aquaman to make the matchup so much different. Getting in isn't the goal, the goal is to get 2/3 screen where you can punish FTDs with reversal straight shot. Thats the range you win and you win because of the hit advantage you're at after every punish. At this range your cupcake should also hit. Getting 2/3 screen is never difficult, you block one FTD and you get a safe forward dash. I don't understand how it could be hard actually unless you're trying to zone him at ranges you lose.

I will say that you need to play this matchup correct and not take free damage, cause everytime you slip up, you lose 200 health and he only loses 45 health for the same slip up. Its hard not to make mistakes, but if you want a good example of playing the ranges you win at, watch F0xy vs Dragon do the Deadshot vs Aquaman matchup. F0xy shows you how Deadshot can win this zoning war and most Deadshot players all say how its one of their worst matchups. He does it by forward dashing after a DB2 if hes full screen so hes at the range where if Aquaman does another, he can punish with straight shot. Literally same thing as harley. The way he plays it is basically exactly how I'm saying to play it with Harley. Leverage your meter to push block and air dodge if he touches you, play around the space of trip guarding whiffed jump ins and punishing FTD.
 
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24K

Noob
so what kind of ams are u playing then? training partners? people from this forum? ok lets do it your way then, so you say she does well againest him, im all ears bro if there is a way for me to beat aquaman without picking black adam id like to hear it so go ahead give me all the answers u got
Seriously dude, first thing is you need to calm down. Nobody here is bashing you or anything you say, don't take it so personally. Congratulations, you have fought better AM's than me. And lucky for you because you can now evaluate the mix up in the manner you wish. But at the end of the day, I haven't had a problem with him, and neither have any of the guys I train with.

Answers then? dont just talk stupid without any backup bro, probably another guy that beat one aquaman in ranked and thinks its a winning mu
He gave you answers. He wasn't talking stupid. He backed it up. Read his post again.

Grow up dude, you are getting so worked up because others have had a view that is different to yours. That's pathetic. You are on the Harley forum with other Harley players. So maybe instead of being a dick you should relax and politely discuss things. That's literally the point of us all coming together. To work out the best way to handle things. MU's are going to change as the way people play their chosen characters change. So I am sure I may change my mind when the AM guys I go up against start playing more like the ones you go up against. But seriously, until then, I feel she takes him. And that you need to chill.
 

24K

Noob
I think jumping in on AM is a bad move. The only time I do it is if he has closed in on me. I will do a NJ guns, and he either blocks it or he eats it, either way if I have bar I will burn it, if you burn it late, which is fun to watch because Harley starts to close her legs and then kicks them back out again, looks hilarious, he can't AA you. The second gun shot lifts you back up again. he trades whatever AA he used with the shot and when you land you can do whatever combo you want. If he is traiting out of the TS combo then do a different combo. Or MB B3. You don't have to always land the most damaging combo. OR just back out again and wear him down. The more gun shots you use after FTD the more you build your meter back up and the more escape options you have to use against him. If you don't use the TS combos regularly he may not be expecting it and you can drop one or two on him.

I typically don't use Harley as a zoning character, but against slow zoners like AM I use her guns a lot to just build the meter.

Don't forget her air escapes and push blocking.
 

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
I agree that Aquaman is very annoying but I honestly don't even bother going into a combo starter (tantrum 1, I mean) against him at all if he has trait.

I usually do F2/B2~straight gunshot, on block she is + and on hit she gets a dash in into a jailing D1/S1 and throw. I use 112 a lot and hit confirm into tantrum, J3 instead of J2 is also very good.

Also remember he takes a LOT of chip damage with trait on so if you do something like B2~gunshot, if it hits and he activates trait you get a free J3 into 112, that alone gives you like 20% chip damage... J3 does around 12% chip damage against traited Aquaman and if he happens to block it after activating trait then you can so something like another B2~gunshot on block which would deal like 8% chip or so.

If you hit tantrum and he has trait there's no reason not to cancel it into forward roll so if he activates it you can go for D1/throw/112/B2, it's not that advantageous on hit but he has to respect D1 at the very least since it's +2/3 on hit IIRC. NEVER do cartwheel hoping it hits since you might get full combo punished and we can't afford those mistakes once we finally do get in.

Another good option is to use her 2F3 or 2D3 mix-up. Both are single hits that knockdown and the overhead very risky but he has to guess at the end of the day so it's an option.

If you ever happen to land a tantrum stance 1 my advice would be to end combos into 112~trait into cupcakes or whatever you want or 33 into J3 unless you wanna go for the kill, then play doctor finisher is the beet option.


It's still a hard MU IMO but doing that has been working good for me and made the MU slightly better.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
Any tips for the Dr.Fate mu?
This is a strange MU.. in theory Harley should wipe the floor with Fate, (his largest weakness is the top corner of the screen since he has nothing that can touch you there. But his projectile game is very minor compared to others and takes the same patience getting in on him as it does other Zoners. The key to the Fate MU is getting yourself familiar with the close sting that MANY Fates rely on. The forward dash, followed by the HOLY CROSS (F2,DB2- I believe- not a Fate player), these two moves are deceptively fast and take time to learn how to read and punish. They like to use THE HOLY CROSS on wake up, basically because it stuffs almost anything you can throw at it- hits you hard and backward, but also moves HIM backward as well, making it a strange move to counter.
 
Any tips for the Dr.Fate mu?
This match up is pretty fun and it really depends on how good you are at getting in on fate. a couple of things to note

1. full screen you can shoot him before his fire ball reaches you everytime
2. if you tantrum you can roll in under any of his projectiles other than traited ankhs,
3. if he does f2 ankh (which they will once you're close) after you block do an instant j2 and you'll get them
4. MB roll is your friend
5. if you got him in the corner you can restand him or knock him down and cross him up to avoid his ankh, also if you dash in after 112 in the corner you can meaty 12 and beat his wake up
6. in theory instant j2 or j1 should be able to punish the db2 wake up but it doesn't always work
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Any tips for the Dr.Fate mu?
Midscreen, when/if you get a combo, use [starter] tantrum 1, b3, j2, 33. Ji2 from there will beat his wakeup. He has to delay or hold the crossup 50/50. I had a way to blow it up in the corner, but I didn't write it down and I can't remember it. I'll have to find it again.

You have to work your way in, with your ultimate goal being to walk him into a corner. Block and walk. When you get about midscreen, air guns becomes an option. Try not to do this too high or he can punish you. If the Fate really knows what he's doing, he can f2 on reaction to you jumping, making the air guns whiff and opening you up for a trip guard.

F2 is whiff punishable, but it massively outranges all of Harley's options. Get your spacing on point and bait and punish it. Knowing your options after f2~glyph, as well as the other player's tendencies, is extremely important. Reversal tantrum will catch back dashes, armor beats another f2 and armor, etc. He's not just going to sit there and he's too far away and not minus enough for you to properly pressure. It all becomes a mind game.

An interesting option that makes you look godlike when it works is using Harley's f3 to low profile a projectile and hit him. This can only work midscreen or closer. Basically only when you can duck the fireballs.
 
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