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Do variations have archetypes? Did NRS do a good job at it?

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
First of all I think variations is a good thing when done right. It gives a lot of character to a character. I've seen some posts around here that variations have no archetypes though, just special moves thrown around, I do believe some do have archetypes and some, with tweaking, would become archetypes. I'll post a quick analisys of the Emperor's variations. You say your take on it, on your main or in general.

1. Risen Emperor - annihilation, up hammer and shadow priest buff. Intended to make the variation pressure oriented for big damage. I think it's done right, priest complements throws and annihilation for big damage, except up hammer is useless and should be reworked. It should either have no gap and remain -1, have a gap but be plus on block, or, the change I would like to see, make an amplified version where you can cancel the hammer before it comes back down and remain somewhat plus, but the hammer doesn't come back.

2. True Kahn - straight hammer, ground shatter and humiliates. The most unclear variation. It'd work, but both humiliates and ground shatter are trash. They need serious reworking. I'd make ground shatter low-overhead on amplification (it's low-low now), or remove the gaps and make it safe (there is an around 20 frame gap between the regular and amplified version, and is -18 in both forms, wth?). Humiliates should be at least as shadow priest on start-up (66, now they're 93). Also shoulder charge in this variation is an impediment, since the variation isn't supposed to be damage based, but more zoning/one hit variation with a restand in ground shatter. Shoulder charge needs to do more damage and send them fullscreen in this variation when amplified, but no combo extention, or the amplified version should always end in the splat version, even better.

3. Realm Destroyer (should also be renamed to Realm Conqueror, because Shao doesn't destroy Realms, he conquers them) - ranged variation. This one I was most interested in before third variations dropped, and got really dissapointed. Spear charge should've been the way it was before the patch, except safe on block (around -10 with pushblock) and seeking hammer should have had more advantage on hit to let you combo only from a d1 midscreen when hit close, thus you can't conbo into spear charge for bigger damage. The hammer may be changed in the future, but the spear charge most likely not, since NRS would have to revert the initial changes, thus accepting they did wrong. But I really hope they do make this change and make this variation unique.

So my point really is to make the variations as different as possible from eachother, not just adding moves with different visuals but with same properties.
Overall i think NRS did what they could to give a good experience in different variations, but can do way much better.
Also please don't discuss the base character here.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
variations is a concept that should have died with Mkx, but half of the pro players and tym voted for 2 vars next game even if Paulo has said earlier in Mkx life that variations were a mistake

Now half of the people that voted for 2 vars are shitting on the game.

I honestly think NRS should just stop listen to us and do the shit they want to do, because not only they listen but they don't seem to be following those advices as well as people expect them to.

Variations are bad for this game since day 1, I don't like the tool set I'm forced to play with, and I think I can custom build a better variation for my character, hell I did it in the beta, and they even nerfed before official release on top of scrapping the tools.

next time just give us full fleshed out characters like other fighting games do, this variation be has lasted almost 10 years and I'm honestly bored of the concept.
 

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
variations is a concept that should have died with Mkx, but half of the pro players and tym voted for 2 vars next game even if Paulo has said earlier in Mkx life that variations were a mistake

Now half of the people that voted for 2 vars are shitting on the game.

I honestly think NRS should just stop listen to us and do the shit they want to do, because not only they listen but they don't seem to be following those advices as well as people expect them to.

Variations are bad for this game since day 1, I don't like the tool set I'm forced to play with, and I think I can custom build a better variation for my character, hell I did it in the beta, and they even nerfed before official release on top of scrapping the tools.

next time just give us full fleshed out characters like other fighting games do, this variation be has lasted almost 10 years and I'm honestly bored of the concept.
Every variation is a different character. You choose the best variation and you have your fleshed out character. Plus if there were no variations you would be forced to play given tools anyway. But that's not the point. The point is to discuss the variations given and how to improve them to be different and give a different experience. Your positive input would be much appreciated. Negative is not needed :)
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Every variation is a different character. You choose the best variation and you have your fleshed out character. Plus if there were no variations you would be forced to play given tools anyway. But that's not the point. The point is to discuss the variations given and how to improve them to be different and give a different experience. Your positive input would be much appreciated. Negative is not needed :)
I'm not trying to Shit on NRS, if there is anything i think i have contributed as much as anyone else here did for whatever they work on, as well i have my fair share of feedbacks good or bad.

i don't think NRS put as much as effort on variation system in this game as they did with MKX, i'm not even sure if this game was designed to play with pre-set tournament variations.

Its kinda hard to balance a concept around it, the best possible option would honestly let ppl build what they think they want to build, and just have a better balance of the moves they added to their moveset, there are better moves out there that aren't being used, some characters DO have moves shimmed in just because and its a fact, those moves don't have a single purpose in that variation regardless.

A good measure, would be take those moves out and add better ones, but that ain't happening.
 

ColdSpine

"I wore those colors before you"
its kinda funny when people say every variation is a new character, its bullshit. giving a character a different combo ender or a projectile wont make them that different, it will only help in some match ups.

The whole variations system is stupid and pointless and should be dead from now on since it makes the characters feel less polished and complete.

if u wanna impress me, add new normals for every variations like standing medium kicks for neutral, or overheads to compliment some styles aside from new set of different specials.

the whole thing is a mess and it should go, they should pay attention to stupid obvious things like shang doing standing x and while its a high and looks like a med even if your opponent is crouching your leg will go through their damn face without hitting them.

Adjust these things, make the game more responsive, stop it with 50/50’s, get rid of variations, make the tech throw two fixed buttons instead of losing 30% for gussing wrong.

mk9 was so close to being everything i wanted in an mk game if they only got rid of armored moves and fixed cyrax 80% combos. but yeah, who know, maybe things will change in the future.



PS: please stop deducting my points in combat league when i dont play for couple of days because i have work and i travel goddamit!

ah wait, you reset things every month, nevermind.
 

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
its kinda funny when people say every variation is a new character, its bullshit. giving a character a different combo ender or a projectile wont make them that different, it will only help in some match ups.

The whole variations system is stupid and pointless and should be dead from now on since it makes the characters feel less polished and complete.

if u wanna impress me, add new normals for every variations like standing medium kicks for neutral, or overheads to compliment some styles aside from new set of different specials.

the whole thing is a mess and it should go, they should pay attention to stupid obvious things like shang doing standing x and while its a high and looks like a med even if your opponent is crouching your leg will go through their damn face without hitting them.

Adjust these things, make the game more responsive, stop it with 50/50’s, get rid of variations, make the tech throw two fixed buttons instead of losing 30% for gussing wrong.

mk9 was so close to being everything i wanted in an mk game if they only got rid of armored moves and fixed cyrax 80% combos. but yeah, who know, maybe things will change in the future.



PS: please stop deducting my points in combat league when i dont play for couple of days because i have work and i travel goddamit!

ah wait, you reset things every month, nevermind.
Yes they are. Shao having a mid projectile in one variation while struggling with zoning in another is a huge deal. Him being able to combo you from 3/4 of the screen in Realm Destroyer while being safe on block would be way different than having to approach you for damage like in Risen Emperor. You are wrong, but you can give your examples if you want to. Sure some variations don't add anything, but only because the specials don't addd anything. They should be reworked further, what I'm saying.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
I think they're mostly done well. I don't know if every single character fits neatly into an easily defined traditional archetype of "zoner", "grappler", "rushdown", etc., but most characters I've seen seem to have some type of strategy that their moves in the particular variation play into. The moves themselves might not always work so well, but I can usually see the strategy inherent in the character.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
I like the 3 different versions of scorpion. I think reborn is best but the other 2 variations definitely have uses. Theres also debate on which is best.

I think the variation system stands out more for specific characters.
 

xWildx

What a day. What a lovely day.
Generally speaking... no. The game wasn’t designed to have specific variations like MKX.

My person theory? NRS knew dropping players into competitive matches with all of these unbalanced specials would be a shit show. Forcing people to use their presets is simply their way of slowing everything down so they can balance the custom specials at their own pace.
 

Error404

Noob
Johnny has them. Zoner, damage and pressure.
I don't think that Shock Jock and Show Stopper are different enough to be put seperately. And even Outtakes gameplay is basicly the same , just better . If I had to pick a character that has 3 different archetypes among their variations it would be Kano. To an extent maybe Frost, SZ and Geras ? IDK honestly. Everybody kinda plays this game in the same way , it's hard to point at any super evident archetypes.
 

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
I don't think that Shock Jock and Show Stopper are different enough to be put seperately. And even Outtakes gameplay is basicly the same , just better . If I had to pick a character that has 3 different archetypes among their variations it would be Kano. To an extent maybe Frost, SZ and Geras ? IDK honestly. Everybody kinda plays this game in the same way , it's hard to point at any super evident archetypes.
That's one thing about the variations is the base character. If say Jade's glow were a custom move her variations would be way different. But imo adjusting custom moves more would make variations way more different. Geras plays different without sand trap, he has to come in if low on life. SZ has to rely on 50/50 more in the shoulder variations etc. There is potential, NRS needs to put in more work though.
 

Error404

Noob
That's one thing about the variations is the base character. If say Jade's glow were a custom move her variations would be way different. But imo adjusting custom moves more would make variations way more different. Geras plays different without sand trap, he has to come in if low on life. SZ has to rely on 50/50 more in the shoulder variations etc. There is potential, NRS needs to put in more work though.
There is no point in polishing turds. They should just scrap them for mk12
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
People still complain about up hammer not being plus and being useless instead of using as a combo ender for midscreen safe jumps? Still?