[Discussion] The depth of MK11 and pros/cons.

[PLAYING TO WIN]

We are now a month out and the games meta is emerging. There are multiple pros/cons when discussion how much depth the game has. Considering the depth, the traditional approach to using one character will place you at a disadvantage in later years of the games life. Several key game play elements, such as flawless blocking, are great for creating a clear skill gap and will contribute to a more complicated meta than "your turn/my turn" as the game is played at a low to mid level. The ease of character use will almost guarantee a counter pick meta at a much higher frequency than previous NRS games except Injustice 2. I2 had a similar learning curve for characters. Considering the variation system, there seems to be potential for even more depth. Currently there are variations that are clearly top tier and others, well, that are simply unplayable.


There you have it! We have a new game, new things to lab, rivalries emerging, major relevant tournament events and things to watch on twitch again! How ever you spin this discussion we can all agree that we finally have something to play again!

Lets play glass half full and discuss the pros:

Flawless Blocking
- I love it. Seeing Deoxys and slayer losing their turn but doing a minus but safe string, then flawless blocking/launching a counter poke was amazing. Depth. Not only knowing strings but if you establish your ability to do this you may make your opponent hesitant to take their turn back. This will gate keeper for good players or great players.

- Ability System. At this point it is almost unanimous that players want full customization allowed in tournament play. Many of you know I was not a proponent of this and thought the balance would be impossible. Several things changed my mind including how easy characters are to learn in mk11 and NRS handling/PR of the ability system. Further, There are unusable variations. I list this as a pro because I see it changing in the future. Lets all just pick our mains and continue learning the mechanics and their application.




The cons of MK11 depth.
- We are only a month into the games life and nearly every tournament and mid level player are using multiple characters at a high level. This is not a good sign and further evidence that full customization needs to be allowed. In injustice 2 there was a Deadshot. An extremely easy character to use that was top 3 in the game. Everyone had one before the nerf. Why? Because he took three days to learn. Firestorm and blue beetle... you didn't see many of them because they took an investment. MK11 is being set up to be the most counter pick heavy game in NRS history. It comes down to one simple thing. The characters are super easy to use, ever more so than Injustice 2. You have an easy to use answer for everything you will see. In earlier NRS games such as Injustice 1 or MK9, yes there were faults, but how many people were doing Cyrax 95% bomb combos? How many were using kabal at the highest level? How many were doing zod combos or laser cancels? I am struggling to find something in MK11 that only a few people could do character specific wise. Execution should and has always been apart of fighting games so I do not buy into the thought, "Ya you should make decisions with your brain and not be limited by a character being hard to use" In conclusion allowing full customization will make it very difficult for players to have a cookie cutter counter pick easy to use character.

- Throw loops. Some have them (best example and why he is as strong as he is, Geras) and some do not. NRS has said they do not want this to be a 50/50 heavy game. Actually it still is just in a different way! No geras does not have MKX sonya launching high lows but he does put you in a throw/strike (mid confirmable string) meaty mix up every single time he touches you. Throws do a lot of damage, 14% to >30%, allowing some characters to get true oki and others not. A strong factor contributing to a characters viability in the game. IMO if there is a SCRUB factor in mk11 this is it. If throw loops are to be allowed then the meaty string should not launch and lead back to another strike/throw mix. In conclusion this takes depth and focus away from neutral which is what I think NRS and Paulo hoped to be the focus of the game.




In conclusion, whether you agree or do not, this information can hopefully help you direct your focus and learn multiple characters that compliment each other bc you will likely not have a lot of success maining one character in MK11. I suggest you make a list and decide who your bad matchups feel like and pick another character specifically for those. Also MORE BLIND PICKS IN TOURNAMENT!

 

[Circus]

I have to disagree just a little on the counterpick problem.

I understand where you're coming from because many of us had these concerns pre-release, but I still think that it's not so set in stone yet.

I'll bring up Semiij for example. Many would argue that he got so destroyed by Dragon's Cetrion in the past that he should possibly consider a counter-pick character, but he didn't and instead learned the ins and outs of the match up even more and ended up beating Dragon pretty convincingly in the run back at Combo Breaker.

My point is, there is a pretty big possibility that several character specialist will know matchups so in depth that using a sub character against them just to counter would be a risky choice if you don't know the character extremely well.

All the characters are pretty easy to pick up, but all the micro-decisions that are made after every single blocked move from the opponent, every projectile thrown from a certain range, and every oki situation on offense and defense needs to be labbed so thoroughly to be on par with someone that knows the matchup well.

Injustice2 had some legitimate 7-3s.
I don't think MK11 has any matchups that are as lopsided honestly. And if they do exist, they're definitely not common.

In Street Fighter4 and Street Fighter5 matchups range from 5-5 to 5.5-4.5 to 6-4, but there aren't many 7-3s in that game either. While people do still counterpick in SF5, I don't think it'll be at the level of something like Injustice2 where the odds to win obviously depend heavily on counter picks.

-------------------

Time will tell obviously, but I'm not as worried about this. I don't think it'll be as easy as "oh I'm going to fight ____. I know I can't use my main now" in the long run.

Remember, this is literally the vanilla version of the game we are playing and the balance is still pretty decent.

 

[Marlow]

We are only a month into the games life and nearly every tournament and mid level player are using multiple characters at a high level. This is not a good sign and further evidence that full customization needs to be allowed. In injustice 2 there was a Deadshot. An extremely easy character to use that was top 3 in the game. Everyone had one before the nerf. Why? Because he took three days to learn. Firestorm and blue beetle... you didn't see many of them because they took an investment.

I don't think this is something to worry about yet. A lot of this is just natural for how character selection looks early on in the tournament/competitive scene. People are trying to win, so they flock to day 1 easier characters, and look for the day 1 strats that get wins. This isn't unique to MK11 at all. I think over time we'll see people start to pick up more of those "hard to learn" characters. Watching Combo Breaker I didn't actually see that many mid level players using multiple characters at a high level.

Honestly, even the Deadshot angst is overblown. For all the hand wringing at the start of the game, he wasn't really making that many top 8's early on. Other than East Coast Throwdown 2017, which was Sep 2017, there weren't that many Deadshots in Top 8.

SRK data - Injustice 2 Tournaments

rank.shoryuken.com

 

[santanabar]

Is this another "custom variation" pro thread in disguise? Giving erron a command throw or subzero slide + amp iceball + unblockable restand is not gonna help balance the game honestly... The "custom fun" will last a couple of weeks until people find the best stuff for every char, like they find the optimal combos (so it doesn't matter how many combo possibilities you have, you will always go for the 3/4 optimals).

Fighting games first months are usually the worst in terms of balance, so it's normal that some characters are way better than others. Let the game get a couple of balance patches, then NRS can start allowing custom variations

 

[portent]

@PLAYING TO WIN another easy way to reduce throw loops would be to remove the guess factor of the throw break. Loops may still be there, but you won't have to guess forward or backward.

 

[Juggs]

The wakeup system is perfect. You can’t just get a free braindead wakeup attack that is fully invincible, launches, and has armor anymore. It cost both a defensive and offensive meter, the non launcher has armor/invincibility, the launcher does not. And they can be baited and whiff punished. Getting a knockdown should be strong, it should put you at an advantage, and it does. But there’s counterplay to it.

THAT SAID, yes, it doesn’t make sense that some characters like Geras have incredibly strong throws that put the opponent right next to them on both throws, while most characters hit you far away. That 100% needs to be addressed. Unless they balance it out to where characters that have a throw like that are generally weaker characters.

 

[SHAOLIN]

Short Hops are definitely a pro to the depth of MK11. Using plus frames to get U2/U3 or on a low crush always feels nice.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Is this another "custom variation" pro thread in disguise? Giving erron a command throw or subzero slide + amp iceball + unblockable restand is not gonna help balance the game honestly... The "custom fun" will last a couple of weeks until people find the best stuff for every char, like they find the optimal combos (so it doesn't matter how many combo possibilities you have, you will always go for the 3/4 optimals).

Fighting games first months are usually the worst in terms of balance, so it's normal that some characters are way better than others. Let the game get a couple of balance patches, then NRS can start allowing custom variations

I was the biggest mouth against custom variation pre launch. Easily. How it was handled from a PR perspective and the simplicity of the characters design will require full customization or this game will be an even worse version of paper rock scissors than injustice 2.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

@PLAYING TO WIN another easy way to reduce throw loops would be to remove the guess factor of the throw break. Loops may still be there, but you won't have to guess forward or backward.

This is a good point but unlikely. Its how it has been since MKX and Krushing blows depend on a wrong guess. I like the thought though.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

The wakeup system is perfect. You can’t just get a free braindead wakeup attack that is fully invincible, launches, and has armor anymore. It cost both a defensive and offensive meter, the non launcher has armor/invincibility, the launcher does not. And they can be baited and whiff punished. Getting a knockdown should be strong, it should put you at an advantage, and it does. But there’s counterplay to it.

THAT SAID, yes, it doesn’t make sense that some characters like Geras have incredibly strong throws that put the opponent right next to them on both throws, while most characters hit you far away. That 100% needs to be addressed. Unless they balance it out to where characters that have a throw like that are generally weaker characters.

Its not just his throw. He has a top 3 projectile in the game that puts you in a 50/50 from full screen. It is the best anti zoning tool in the game except for Glow lol.

 

[santanabar]

I was the biggest mouth against custom variation pre launch. Easily. How it was handled from a PR perspective and the simplicity of the characters design will require full customization or this game will be an even worse version of paper rock scissors than injustice 2.

I agree, but the game is just not ready yet for custom.

 

[JTC]

NRS has said they do not want this to be a 50/50 heavy game.

We should all know by now that whatever NRS says is going to be bullshit. As long as paulo is at the helm there will always be 50/50. The dude just likes his games like that.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

The wakeup system is perfect. You can’t just get a free braindead wakeup attack that is fully invincible, launches, and has armor anymore. It cost both a defensive and offensive meter, the non launcher has armor/invincibility, the launcher does not. And they can be baited and whiff punished. Getting a knockdown should be strong, it should put you at an advantage, and it does. But there’s counterplay to it.

This. I love the roll wakeup too.

 

[Matix218]

This is a good point but unlikely. Its how it has been since MKX and Krushing blows depend on a wrong guess. I like the thought though.

It was like that even as far back as mk9

 

[CorneliusBrutus]

Is this another "custom variation" pro thread in disguise? Giving erron a command throw or subzero slide + amp iceball + unblockable restand is not gonna help balance the game honestly... The "custom fun" will last a couple of weeks until people find the best stuff for every char, like they find the optimal combos (so it doesn't matter how many combo possibilities you have, you will always go for the 3/4 optimals).

Fighting games first months are usually the worst in terms of balance, so it's normal that some characters are way better than others. Let the game get a couple of balance patches, then NRS can start allowing custom variations

Looking at the actual tools available to each character, it would become obvious that finding a "best" loadout is not the end goal nor is it a realistic one. Many of the abilities are meant to thrive in specific situations. There are trade-offs in every case, if only because every selection is an opportunity cost of every other selection you did not make. People will have pocket/counter loadouts in the same way they have pocket/counter characters.

 

[Ayx]

Looking at the actual tools available to each character, it would become obvious that finding a "best" loadout is not the end goal nor is it a realistic one. Many of the abilities are meant to thrive in specific situations. There are trade-offs in every case, if only because every selection is an opportunity cost of every other selection you did not make. People will have pocket/counter loadouts in the same way they have pocket/counter characters.

The thing is that some abilities do not apply in most cases. For example Cetrion's 2 variations are pretty balanced, but what really makes her Var1 stand out atm is the fact that her lack of natural barrier (wall move) and replaced with a hilariously bad barrier that's only purpose is to catch people off guard w/ the AMP version and that's mostly to do w/ matchup knowledge. if we had our choice, I'd say 99.9% of the players will eliminate that and just keep H20 port due to it's huge mind games for 1 slot. Her ground pound can really throw a lot of unfamilar players off w/ setups and her boulder hold has good mindgames behind it to any non-teleport character.

We also have to realize sure giving custom loadouts will be fun for some low tier warriors to have a better chance or add variety. But imagine the S tiers w/ customs that allows them to not even have to make them change their characters thanks to custom loadouts? Or what if the custom variations makes MORE counter picks as matchup knowledge will be harder to acquire and they can just use a 1-off gimmick? Too much can of worms for me IMO.

 

[CorneliusBrutus]

The thing is that some abilities do not apply in most cases. For example Cetrion's 2 variations are pretty balanced, but what really makes her Var1 stand out atm is the fact that her lack of natural barrier (wall move) and replaced with a hilariously bad barrier that's only purpose is to catch people off guard w/ the AMP version and that's mostly to do w/ matchup knowledge. if we had our choice, I'd say 99.9% of the players will eliminate that and just keep H20 port due to it's huge mind games for 1 slot. Her ground pound can really throw a lot of unfamilar players off w/ setups and her boulder hold has good mindgames behind it to any non-teleport character.

We also have to realize sure giving custom loadouts will be fun for some low tier warriors to have a better chance or add variety. But imagine the S tiers w/ customs that allows them to not even have to make them change their characters thanks to custom loadouts? Or what if the custom variations makes MORE counter picks as matchup knowledge will be harder to acquire and they can just use a 1-off gimmick? Too much can of worms for me IMO.

You're looking at the two tournament variations and how you would swap abilities between them, not looking at how you would build a variation from the ground-up with the pool of all abilities. Regardless of that, honestly it's just not much of a concern to me if there's an "obvious" variation that emerges for a character. In that case... we just took a longer, more interesting road to get back to where we are now, where for 99% of the roster one variation is considered to be favored by a decent margin, albeit with some different variables.. There's no mandate that every ability should have a minimum usage rate: if you're familiar with League of Legends, is it a problem that Flash has always had a monumentally high usage rate compared to the rest of the Summoner Spells?

There's not much point IMO to worrying too much about projected balance problems in the future. We don't know what having access to more variations will do to the rest of the cast relative to the current S-tier. If NRS decides they want to pursue custom variations I don't think they (or I) view "balance" as a major potential drawback. As I have stated elsewhere, if something becomes a problem it will become VERY obvious quickly what the offending ability/variation is -- and when that happens they have a lot of options available to make adjustments (change cost to 2 slots, change properties of the move, add exclusivity with other abilities, etc.). I would guess NRS' hesitation to commit in this area is tied more to the tournament experience: non-standard variations adds another burden of knowledge to viewers, plus determining the logistics for creating and choosing variations on the player side. In this way, it makes sense for NRS to release with tournament variations as they did, so the first couple months of events/tournaments don't have to deal with these complications.

Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread to pound the table for custom variations I really do think it can be a great thing if NRS commits to it!

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

You're looking at the two tournament variations and how you would swap abilities between them, not looking at how you would build a variation from the ground-up with the pool of all abilities. Regardless of that, honestly it's just not much of a concern to me if there's an "obvious" variation that emerges for a character. In that case... we just took a longer, more interesting road to get back to where we are now, where for 99% of the roster one variation is considered to be favored by a decent margin, albeit with some different variables.. There's no mandate that every ability should have a minimum usage rate: if you're familiar with League of Legends, is it a problem that Flash has always had a monumentally high usage rate compared to the rest of the Summoner Spells?

There's not much point IMO to worrying too much about projected balance problems in the future. We don't know what having access to more variations will do to the rest of the cast relative to the current S-tier. If NRS decides they want to pursue custom variations I don't think they (or I) view "balance" as a major potential drawback. As I have stated elsewhere, if something becomes a problem it will become VERY obvious quickly what the offending ability/variation is -- and when that happens they have a lot of options available to make adjustments (change cost to 2 slots, change properties of the move, add exclusivity with other abilities, etc.). I would guess NRS' hesitation to commit in this area is tied more to the tournament experience: non-standard variations adds another burden of knowledge to viewers, plus determining the logistics for creating and choosing variations on the player side. In this way, it makes sense for NRS to release with tournament variations as they did, so the first couple months of events/tournaments don't have to deal with these complications.

Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread to pound the table for custom variations I really do think it can be a great thing if NRS commits to it!

It’s cool. I agree