Developer Notes: Episode 2: Freeze Time and complicated commands

Discussion in 'Fighting Philosophy' started by Eddy Wang, Dec 1, 2018.

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  1. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Skarlet scientist

    PSN:
    eddywangmk
    If you have ever seen Tekken, DOA, or even Virtual Fighter, any game for that matter, there is a fuction which they call "During Hit" its a type of command that activates an extra propriety or a specific command in the moment of impact.

    Did you know that there is a time in fighting games that everytime a hit is registered, the game actually stops for a few instants? Its almost impossible to tell with Human eye.

    When Coding Kia for the past month, i started giving her this during hit or block condition, which allows her to teleport if you press LK exactly on the impact frame of her attack, at the beginning felt really dificult to execute because it was a hit or miss and a huge drop factor.


    It was later on that i've discovered, that there is a function in fighting games, where everytime a hit lands, a developer can choose to freeze both characters in that impact for a period of time either if they're hit or blocked, if done correctly, since human eye and finger coordination are almost impossible to match because some attacks are just too fast, you give them a time where the game stops on that window and they are able to match or even timing an attack based on sensivity of animation about to hit with their muscle memory timing.

    A quick example, here is a future DLC character in the MKP CB Build, Kia is made to remind you a bit of phase 4 from DOA, so she has a few moves where on hit if you press LK, she can warp into a super jump which gives her access to other commands, like a drop kick which can teleport during hit, a haymaker, and a regular Jump Side kick.

    She also has a 1 frame knee executed the exact same way Akira does.




    The same time freeze example, can be learned if you read Tekken 7 Patch notes from Season 2, where Claudio's hop Kick used to recover too fast for an human eye to see and allows the brain to proccess in time to perform a proper punishment, so namco used a system which also exists in mugen, which is adding 2 frames on both characters after the impact frames, which now allows the player to see what is happening in time to perform a punishment.
     
    #1
  2. Rip Torn

    Rip Torn ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.

    PSN:
    Zen_RipTorn
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    rip_torn13
    Yeah, it's called hitstop. It's been in fighting games forever. You can usually tell when a game doesn't have hitstop because the attacks will feel like they have no impact or weight behind them.
     
    #2
    villainous monk and Eddy Wang like this.
  3. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Skarlet scientist

    PSN:
    eddywangmk
    Yeah, since Street Fighter days indeed, i played quite a bunch of fighting games in the past yet, i can't remember seeing one without it.
     
    #3
  4. Rip Torn

    Rip Torn ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.

    PSN:
    Zen_RipTorn
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    A lot of 3D games don't really have hitstop. Tekken and Virtua Fighter don't seem to have much at all. Or if they do, it's only during certain attacks. I think each game developer handles it a little differently. Like with Tekken and Virtua Fighter, you aren't really doing 2-in-1 cancels so the hitstop isn't as necessary. Also, 3D games have the ability to add animation frames during hitstop whereas 2d fighters have to rely on hitspark type effects while the character sprite vibrates to emphasize impact.

    Here's a really interesting blog post by the creator of Smash Bros (I know, I know...) but he really breaks down the subject well:

    https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/11/11/thoughts-on-hitstop-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-490-1/
     
    #4
  5. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Skarlet scientist

    PSN:
    eddywangmk
    Interesting stuff.
     
    #5
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  6. Rip Torn

    Rip Torn ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.

    PSN:
    Zen_RipTorn
    Steam:
    rip_torn13
    So, did you design Kia? She looks like a UMK3 sprite but I've never seen her before in any MK game. I would main this character. Her movement is insane with that teleport. Also, that boomerang special at the end looks hella useful. Look at that knee! into teleport into haymaker. She reminds me of Kobu Jutsu Tanya but with better movement.
     
    #6
  7. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Skarlet scientist

    PSN:
    eddywangmk
    The sprites are original from MK Mythologies Sub-Zero, but there is a bunch of new ones i had to make it myself, including the knee, teleports, flip kicks mostly.

    She lacks most of the UMK3 animation, but those are being worked on, since Mugen Engine supports 2D, i can make the sprites anywhere i can as long as the art and style matches the UMK3 one it can be done.

    So i'm considering switching to a 3D modeling posing in a 2D sceneraio under the same light and color conditions, we did the same for Jataaka and it worked really great.

    In general the way she is intended to play, and all the extras are all by my design. She has great mobility and combos, but she is a bit dificult to maneuver due the just frames moves.
     
    #7
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  8. villainous monk

    villainous monk Break bread over a whiskey n rocks. Like a man.

    I wanted to ask you a few questions from episode 1.

    When you got the feedback how well did you handle it? Did it give you ideas for yyou to relook at all your characters or just the ones they mentioned?

    Also how long do I have to wait till I can get my hands on this?

    I've been playing MKDA & MKD recently and wishing there was a way I could improve those games. Is there a way I could do the same as you did in Mugen that I could do in let's say MKDA, MKD or MKA?

    Really looking forward to this if it's going to get a download option. That Baraka, MKM Quan Chi & Nightwolf look really good.
     
    #8
  9. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Skarlet scientist

    PSN:
    eddywangmk
    When you're doing something for more than yourself you have to be willingly to handle anything, in fact i wasn't really mad, it was enthusiastic to take notes and feedbacks from others seeing how they expect things to go, i went back immediatly to the board and fix most of the things, i looked at all game in general, most of the complains were more about general gameplay rather than character specifics.

    I'm trying to do my best to give a playable build yet in this month, and will be releasing updates and improvements over next year with patches do download and want to try new things no one ever tried before in mugen.

    About improving a 3D game, Hacking should be possible, but i'm afraid that even from that you will be super limited to what's already in the game.
    An alternative solution would be to get your hands on an engine with 3D support, i believe Unity does that, then you had to pick 3D models for the game, there is a bunch on Deviantart, but they're built in XNALara models, though there are ways to convert them for use you would still have to rigg the models so they can move.

    But that's a start, other than that, having good coding skills or start learning its the way to go. But all and all, the best way to build a fighting game personally, its with a team, because there is like 5 different tasks to accomplish and if your time has at least one person for each the game progress goes much faster, if its all entitled to one persons it takes longer to finish projects, issues and more:

    Coders
    1 - One codes the game features and general gameplay (sometimes characters)
    2 - Another one codes mostly characters and handles balance

    Composers
    2 - One creates musics for the game and sound effects

    Artists
    1 - One create character animations
    2 - Another one create models, designs and so on

    Testers
    1 - Quality assurance (test game functioning, can also be made by some coders)
     
    #9
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  10. villainous monk

    villainous monk Break bread over a whiskey n rocks. Like a man.

    Yeah I understand fully now. My friend told me the same thing basically and she works at Ubisoft. I wanted to ask because I wanted to figure out a way to essentially
    Rework mkda or deception on some aspects.

    What your undertaking is daunting and sounds really exciting and filled with a good amounts of time, effort and knowledge.

    Please keep me posted. I also forwarded these episodes to her as I'm sure she will enjoy reading this and would give you just as much encouragement as i.
     
    #10

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