Defining “Neutral”. A Discussion

[Marlow]

For example, if I'm playing as Raiden, and my opponent is Scorpion, then the neutral is going to revolve around me figuring out how to deal with Scorpion's combination of Teleport/Spear. The Scorpion player is likely going to dominate in being able to set the pace of the match. My job is to find a way to be able to get into a range where I can react, duck, and punish Spear, while also being ready to block/duck and punish teleport.

One thing I'll ask: Is setting the pace a part of neutral, or is setting pace it's own thing? If you can control the pace of a match, is that the same thing as controlling neutral?

 

[BRAZILIAN SHEEP]

Literally just rewatched this the other day. It’s such an incredible set. To answer your question, for me personally, absolutely. This type of neutral and footsie play is precisely the reason I love high level play in certain FGs. There’s so much going on in a set like this that most people don’t even realize. And to the average casual player, they certainly don’t understand why this even is a godlike set other than it being “really close games with a couple of clutch comebacks”.

Yes. I agree.

But man, listen....I really like MK11 too, but the problem is: Don't pretend to be something that you are not, just to sell more games.
Just compare this fight, with what we have in MK11. Instead of going to training mode to practice combos, improving reactions, and matchups....we spend a LOT of our time dealing with the games bullshit. Situatios that the char should just be minus on block and that is it....but no. Training mode is a place for you to try counter act the games bullshit.

If they just assume that this is a party game or whatever....I would be ok. Just put a better AI in there I would have fun offline, or laugh with my friends online.

 

[Shale101]

No one’s stopping you. I don’t understand when people say stuff like this. If you prefer MKX over MK11, then play MKX... lol?

Did I say that I don't play? I do.......I justhope the next MK games will be more like MKX in the future.

 

[Juggs]

Did I say that I don't play? I do.......I justhope the next MK games will be more like MKX in the future.

You’re right, I didn’t see you say the word “style”, my bad. I read it as “I’d rather to back to MKX than this”.

 

[Obly]

I've always chalked that up to just being part of the matchup. Sometimes you're the character that gets to dictate pace, sometimes your opponent's character is the character that gets to dictate pace. I find it stressful, but it's never really killed my fun.

I try to keep up this healthy mindset, I really do. But it's hard on those days when all you run into are Scorp, Sub, Liu, Lao, now Sheeva... the characters that always dictate pace, because they have certain tools they can use to attack from almost anywhere, any time. So you have to stay ready to defend from those attacks at all times; there's virtually nowhere on screen where you're "safe" and can think about something else.

It's not that it can't be done; I just find it more stressful and less enjoyable than playing traditional footsies. I don't think I'm alone in this; you see a lot of people talk about how MK11 matches make them feel edgy, "sweaty", and drained. Feels kind of like watching a horror movie where you know the jump scare is coming, so you're just tense and anxious the whole time, trying to stay prepared for it. That's one of the reasons I'm not a fan of horror movies...

Wouldn't be so bad if it were rare, but of course it's not; these characters are so popular exactly because of their "fuck neutral" tools. They let even the most causal of players feel powerful and effective with very little investment needed in learning the game, or really any commitment to taking FGs seriously.

It's a conundrum, really. On the one hand, characters like this (low execution, high output) make it easier for new players to get into the game; that's how the FGC grows and how game studios stay afloat. But when these characters comprise the great majority of online fights, it just makes the whole game feel like more of a grind that's harder to stay interested in. I don't have a solution... just musing...

 

[Obly]

One thing I'll ask: Is setting the pace a part of neutral, or is setting pace it's own thing? If you can control the pace of a match, is that the same thing as controlling neutral?

They're definitely related, imo. At least in my mind, when I say that one character can control the pace of the match, it means that character--because of his or her toolset--gets to severely limit what the other character can do in the neutral. Your choices are highly constrained by the need to always be ready to defend against a teleport, a slide, or what have you. Overextend yourself just a little bit and you're eating a KB in the gut.

It's interesting that no one seems to think about zoning in the same way. I mean, everyone hates it of course, and strictly speaking, zoners also can largely control the pace of a match. But you don't see zoning abilities referred to as "fuck neutral" tools. There's just something extra obnoxious about super-movement abilities; maybe it's the reactability factor, I'm not sure. But it's notable that in Injustice 2, everyone will say "I hated that game because of all the OP zoning," and yet it was a character like Supergirl who was definitely one of the most hated single characters, even though her actual zoning was about average.

 

[scrubjesus111]

@Obly said exactly what I was going to say, but I'll just echo one of his points anyway. "Fuck neutral" is really "fuck footsies". But the latter sounds more than a little sus so we going with "fuck neutral" lmao

 

[spidey300]

I was told mk11 was supposed to be a slow methodical footsie based neutral game. Now excuse me as i try to avoid sheeva stomp

 

[spidey300]

No one’s stopping you. I don’t understand when people say stuff like this. If you prefer MKX over MK11, then play MKX... lol?

I think it's just development going further could be more mkx like but almost no mk game is like the last

 

[Marlow]

I was told mk11 was supposed to be a slow methodical footsie based neutral game. Now excuse me as i try to avoid sheeva stomp

Would you like it better if it was a slow methodical footsie based neutral game?

 

[craftycheese]

It's interesting that no one seems to think about zoning in the same way. I mean, everyone hates it of course, and strictly speaking, zoners also can largely control the pace of a match. But you don't see zoning abilities referred to as "fuck neutral" tools.

It's probably because zoning is it's own term and neutral isn't as well defined or a has a very broad defination. People hear zoning, they think spamming projectiles. People hear neutral, most people think of just spacing, moving back and forth, and whiffing normals. They're seen as far apart from one another, when actually they're closer together.

Edited to maybe say what I wanted to say better.

 

[Juggs]

It's probably because zoning is it's own term and neutral isn't as well defined or a has a very broad defination. You hear zoning you think projectiles. You hear neutral, I'm willing to bet most people think of just normals.

Zoning doesn’t necessarily mean projectiles, that’s a common misconception. And likewise, it’s also commonly mischaracterized as only meaning projectiles.

“Zoning is whatever series of tactics a player uses to keep their opponent at a specific distance. What exactly that distance is depends on both who the zoner and the opponent are using; this is because how you zone will differ based on the tools you have at your disposal versus the tools that the opposing player has. Basically, the goal of zoning is to use projectiles, long-ranged attacks, and fast moves that are safe, apply pressure, and force your opponent into a disadvantaged state.”

Projectiles may be the most common application of zoning, but zoning isn’t a replacement word for projectiles, regardless of how often it is used as such.

To the neutral point. Just about anything you do in the neutral state, IS “playing” neutral. Even something as small as taking a step forward and blocking. Now that doesn’t mean you necessarily “win” neutral in that scenario, but it could mean that. For instance, if you take a step forward and then block, and this for some reason initiates a response from your opponent and they jump, throw up an unsafe move, etc, where in which you can punish on reaction, whiff punish, or block punish, you can arguably say that you “won neutral” in that instance. Even IF after you punish, it goes back to the neutral state.

 

[craftycheese]

Zoning doesn’t necessarily mean projectiles, that’s a common misconception. And likewise, it’s also commonly mischaracterized as only meaning projectiles.

“Zoning is whatever series of tactics a player uses to keep their opponent at a specific distance. What exactly that distance is depends on both who the zoner and the opponent are using; this is because how you zone will differ based on the tools you have at your disposal versus the tools that the opposing player has. Basically, the goal of zoning is to use projectiles, long-ranged attacks, and fast moves that are safe, apply pressure, and force your opponent into a disadvantaged state.”

Projectiles may be the most common application of zoning, but zoning isn’t a replacement word for projectiles, regardless of how often it is used as such.

To the neutral point. Just about anything you do in the neutral state, IS “playing” neutral. Even something as small as taking a step forward and blocking. Now that doesn’t mean you necessarily “win” neutral in that scenario, but it could mean that. For instance, if you take a step forward and then block, and this for some reason initiates a response from your opponent and they jump, throw up an unsafe move, etc, where in which you can punish on reaction, whiff punish, or block punish, you can arguably say that you “won neutral” in that instance. Even IF after you punish, it goes back to the neutral state.

Right, I agree with all that, but I was just trying to give a reason why zoning isn't seen as much as a "fuck neutral" tool. I kinda edited my comment to maybe say what I wanted to say better.

The real reason why I quoted you was to bring up this picture for the ad that popped up for me in this thread and this thread only and I blame you

 

[Juggs]

Right, I agree with all that, but I was just trying to give a reason why zoning isn't seen as much as a "fuck neutral" tool. I kinda edited my comment to maybe say what I wanted to say better.

The real reason why I quoted you was to bring up this picture for the ad that popped up for me in this thread and this thread only and I blame you

And zoning, projectiles or otherwise, are certainly not “fuck neutral” tools. For me personally, I dislike that term for several reasons. One, it implies that you have to play neutral in a certain way. This is why I say people don’t understand what neutral is, or that there’s a difference between the neutral state, and playing the neutral game (or more simply, “playing neutral”). Scorpion’s teleport is fairly often referred to as a “fuck neutral” tool. But the act of teleporting in neutral, is you, in fact, playing the neutral game. The problem is, as I’ve stated, is people seem to believe neutral has to be played a certain way. The way neutral is played is 100% entirely dependent on the characters and the matchup(s).

As for the ad, yeah, I’ve gotten the same as well as many other users. I have tried to talk to STORMS about potentially changing my name, but never really got anything in response. I don’t want to change my name, it’s literally what I’ve been going as for at least a decade now. But in the realm of this forum where it initiates porn ads, I think making the sacrifice of changing my name to where this is no longer an issue is the least I could do. But, if the site owner doesn’t seem to have a problem with it (and to be clear, neither do I), not much I can do about it.

 

[spidey300]

Would you like it better if it was a slow methodical footsie based neutral game?

Nope. I would like it better if everyone was dumb and doing dumb shit just like it's always been in mortal kombat. This reply ain't nothin new. I made a similar post in this same thread

 

[DarkSado]

Nope. I would like it better if everyone was dumb and doing dumb shit just like it's always been in mortal kombat. This reply ain't nothin new. I made a similar post in this same thread

Agree

 

[Eddy Wang]

As for the ad, yeah, I’ve gotten the same as well as many other users. I have tried to talk to STORMS about potentially changing my name, but never really got anything in response. I don’t want to change my name, it’s literally what I’ve been going as for at least a decade now. But in the realm of this forum where it initiates porn ads, I think making the sacrifice of changing my name to where this is no longer an issue is the least I could do. But, if the site owner doesn’t seem to have a problem with it (and to be clear, neither do I), not much I can do about it.

I haven't noticed until you guys mentioned it, it was quite funny actually.
I understand we have to take it out.