Dear NRS: some suggestions to adjust the joker.

[Manaconda1710]

Here are a few suggestions to improve the joker. I don't want all of these things. They are just suggestions of possible buffs that could help joker out.

1. Greatly decrease the push back of MB joy buzzer. It restands but doesn't allow any follow up. Why not make it more like nutpunch. Give us a chance for a midscreen setup.
2. Decrease the startup of d2. At 12 frames it is hard to hit on reaction. If it was 10 frames it would be a slight buff, but would make a difference.
3. Decrease the pushback of jokers strings on hit. As is joker seems to work against himself. He wants to get in there, but instead of being rewarded for opening up the opponent he sends them back nearly fullscreen. Then has to do all of that work over again. God forbid they wakeup backdash.
4. Change his trait. A few suggestions for changing the trait. I am Not looking for all of these things. You could make it one lvl. You could make it decrease the startup of his normals instead of increasing his movement speed. You could make it the acid flower. Please do something. Look at how good batman, black adam, aquaman, catwoman, and superman's traits are to name a few. Some of them can cancel into their traits mid combo!
5. Make meter burn gunshot a mid. If meter burn gunshot is a mid joker can consistantly do his d1 punish combo on all of the cast. As of now it wiffs on every female character.

These are a few things that i think could help the joker without catapulting him to top tier. Once again let me say that i am not asking for all things mentioned. Just a little help somewhere. I'm sure the rest of the joker community will weigh in.

@SonicFox5000

 

[Vengeance135]

I agree with this post 100%, however I also think he should get:

his j2 back to its original state

his crowbar otg back

his acid flower back

mb roll canister should be plus again

fill the gaps in his strings that we've been complaining about for years.

At least these things

@Jack White
@BrianTheBEAST
@Qwark28
@StevoSuprem0
@the_pantychrist
@ThaShiveGeek
@Alioune
@CasualPlayer

Anyone I forget please tag

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

I agree with the 1st and 4th point you made.

D2 may be a tad slower, but it makes up for it's great range. And as far as pushback, I'm not sure how much NRS can or is willing to do that. So not sure about those.

Alright, so we all know joker's weakness is getting his offense started. And tbh, everything @Vengeance135 said I agree with. J2, otg, and + on block mb gas canister would definitely help with corner carry. Flower back means we don't have to get bullied so hard on knockdown.

Someone in an earlier thread said to make Flower the trait. It'll have a buildup meter, and, when used, it can act as wakeup (or restands, etc) When it hits, it reverses the opponents controls. I personally thought it was a very neat idea because it gives a real purpose to trait now.

At farther ranges, Joker's neutral is reduced to a D2, D3, or Jump in. D2 cancelled into teeth is easily avoided and punished based on distance. Cancelled into gas canister can be jumped out of and blocked (no offense started cause mb doesn't give us anything). Cancelled into crowbar is pretty much our only safe option. D3 is a far reaching sweep but doesn't lead to much. And a jump in....... well there's not much to say for that lol. Basically, Joker neutral is extremely weak.

Anyways I'm starting to think that something could be done to joker's F2. Make it some kind of mid-knife lunge animation. It would definitely have to be balanced out. I'm honestly not sure if it could be a stagger of some sorts.... or maybe it has good cancel advantage..... but at the very least, I would love to have a relatively fast, far reaching normal that I can play footsies with and extend to a full combo if I get the hit. I think this could be really good for Joker and provide a solution to Joker's problem of starting offense.

 

[Vengeance135]

I agree with the 1st and 4th point you made.

D2 may be a tad slower, but it makes up for it's great range. And as far as pushback, I'm not sure how much NRS can or is willing to do that. So not sure about those.

Alright, so we all know joker's weakness is getting his offense started. And tbh, everything @Vengeance135 said I agree with. J2, otg, and + on block mb gas canister would definitely help with corner carry. Flower back means we don't have to get bullied so hard on knockdown.

Someone in an earlier thread said to make Flower the trait. It'll have a buildup meter, and, when used, it can act as wakeup (or restands, etc) When it hits, it reverses the opponents controls. I personally thought it was a very neat idea because it gives a real purpose to trait now.

At farther ranges, Joker's neutral is reduced to a D2, D3, or Jump in. D2 cancelled into teeth is easily avoided and punished based on distance. Cancelled into gas canister can be jumped out of and blocked (no offense started cause mb doesn't give us anything). Cancelled into crowbar is pretty much our only safe option. D3 is a far reaching sweep but doesn't lead to much. And a jump in....... well there's not much to say for that lol. Basically, Joker neutral is extremely weak.

Anyways I'm starting to think that something could be done to joker's F2. Make it some kind of mid-knife lunge animation. It would definitely have to be balanced out. I'm honestly not sure if it could be a stagger of some sorts.... or maybe it has good cancel advantage..... but at the very least, I would love to have a relatively fast, far reaching normal that I can play footsies with and extend to a full combo if I get the hit. I think this could be really good for Joker and provide a solution to Joker's problem of starting offense.

I'm not sure how I feel about flower being a trait move. I guess it would have to depend on it's cool down time. I would personally like a consistent wakeup attack unless the add the invincibility back to wake up crowbar like it had in injustice 1

 

[Gilbagz]

tbh the only thing I want back is the old j2. Whiffs a tonne now, gap fixes are nice; but I don't mind his other issues right now. His jump is still retarded good in neutral, and his normals are still pretty good.

Crowbar otg was nice in igau 1, but isnt as needed in this game. If otg crowbar came back, it would be a bit much cos his damage ender would give him pressure still. In general, it seems most chars need to give up something if they want to maintain pressure. His walk accel is good, so I don't find zoning to be that bad; he has a decent enough neutral buttons. Nothing outstanding, but good enough to play neutral with.

Edit: Would be nice to have acid flower back, but so far, delayed wake up is pretty good. As is his backdash. Mixing up the delay with parry and bd is enough to mess with heavy knockdown pressure. Not ideal, but with how good his corner mix is, I don't mind having to block on wake up sometimes. Really weary about over buffing him. Dont get me wrong he has issues, but i'd rather we explore this new game more before we ask for buffs.

 

[Vengeance135]

tbh the only thing I want back is the old j2. Whiffs a tonne now, gap fixes are nice; but I don't mind his other issues right now. His jump is still (soap bar in my mouth) good in neutral, and his normals are still pretty good.

Crowbar otg was nice in igau 1, but isnt as needed in this game. If otg crowbar came back, it would be a bit much cos his damage ender would give him pressure still. In general, it seems most chars need to give up something if they want to maintain pressure. His walk accel is good, so I don't find zoning to be that bad; he has a decent enough neutral buttons. Nothing outstanding, but good enough to play neutral with.

Edit: Would be nice to have acid flower back, but so far, delayed wake up is pretty good. As is his backdash. Mixing up the delay with parry and bd is enough to mess with heavy knockdown pressure. Not ideal, but with how good his corner mix is, I don't mind having to block on wake up sometimes. Really weary about over buffing him. Dont get me wrong he has issues, but i'd rather we explore this new game more before we ask for buffs.

My issue is his already unnecessary nerfs.

I think having his old move set back would be completely fair considering how much stuff the other legacy characters have.

I really don't want much more then what he already had.

Joker still hit like a tank in the first game, even with all of these tools and was still the worse character in the game. Now characters like black Adam are stronger then their injustice 1 version and joker got nerfed?

I say restore Jokers original move set, let him keep joy buzzer, adjust his trait if need be and let's see what happens. I would like him to have better neutral tools but having him fully restored to his injustice 1 version is more important to me personally.

If he still struggles after that then maybe we should revisit his strings and neutral.

Btw, can you play people in America by chance? I would love to play you bro, swap ideas.

 

[Jack White]

tbh the only thing I want back is the old j2. Whiffs a tonne now, gap fixes are nice; but I don't mind his other issues right now. His jump is still (soap bar in my mouth) good in neutral, and his normals are still pretty good.

Crowbar otg was nice in igau 1, but isnt as needed in this game. If otg crowbar came back, it would be a bit much cos his damage ender would give him pressure still. In general, it seems most chars need to give up something if they want to maintain pressure. His walk accel is good, so I don't find zoning to be that bad; he has a decent enough neutral buttons. Nothing outstanding, but good enough to play neutral with.

Edit: Would be nice to have acid flower back, but so far, delayed wake up is pretty good. As is his backdash. Mixing up the delay with parry and bd is enough to mess with heavy knockdown pressure. Not ideal, but with how good his corner mix is, I don't mind having to block on wake up sometimes. Really weary about over buffing him. Dont get me wrong he has issues, but i'd rather we explore this new game more before we ask for buffs.

The J2 absolutely is broken and poorly made. It has a tiny hitbox and can be avoided most of the time by crouching... which is not great for a j2. I would argue though, that you're being a tad conservative. You're thinking, "oh this might be too strong", in a game FILLED with characters with options that feel too strong on paper.

- Batman can completely ignore the neutral game with his trait.
- Superman has some of the best block pressure in the game on top of being a dynamo full screen.
- Deadshot can zone the hell out of you and give you true blue 50/50's up close that can send you flying across the screen or do insane damage in the corner.
- Black Adam can sneeze and do over 50% damage to you while also being super strong defensively and being able to get in easily on most characters.
- Catwoman has some of the best footsies in the game, great spaced normals, and fantastic pressure.
- Darkseid can threaten any character in the game from anywhere on the screen.

I understand the urge to want to keep things balanced and fair, but you're fighting characters with tools that aren't what you'd consider balanced and fair constantly. All of the characters I listed have fantastic, usable traits, and all of them (besides Black Adam) have decent to great wake up moves. Would it really be the end of the world if they fixed Joker's j2, replaced his trait with the acid flower, restored the block frame data he had on MB rolling laughing gas/crowbar, and gave him back his otgs? It's early, but we've played with this character for so long already in the previous game, and it's clear that he got nerfed with nothing really to compensate.

He'd be able to pressure after damage enders sure, but remember, the Joker can't get any big damage off of anything but mids when he's not in the corner. That's a huge deal in this game when you look at every other character.

 

[Vengeance135]

The J2 absolutely is broken and poorly made. It has a tiny hitbox and can be avoided most of the time by crouching... which is not great for a j2. I would argue though, that you're being a tad conservative. You're thinking, "oh this might be too strong", in a game FILLED with characters with options that feel too strong on paper.

- Batman can completely ignore the neutral game with his trait.
- Superman has some of the best block pressure in the game on top of being a dynamo full screen.
- Deadshot can zone the hell out of you and give you true blue 50/50's up close that can send you flying across the screen or do insane damage in the corner.
- Black Adam can sneeze and do over 50% damage to you while also being super strong defensively and being able to get in easily on most characters.
- Catwoman has some of the best footsies in the game, great spaced normals, and fantastic pressure.
- Darkseid can threaten any character in the game from anywhere on the screen.

I understand the urge to want to keep things balanced and fair, but you're fighting characters with tools that aren't what you'd consider balanced and fair constantly. All of the characters I listed have fantastic, usable traits, and all of them (besides Black Adam) have decent to great wake up moves. Would it really be the end of the world if they fixed Joker's j2, replaced his trait with the acid flower, restored the block frame data he had on MB rolling laughing gas/crowbar, and gave him back his otgs? It's early, but we've played with this character for so long already in the previous game, and it's clear that he got nerfed with nothing really to compensate.

He'd be able to pressure after damage enders sure, but remember, the Joker can't get any big damage off of anything but mids when he's not in the corner. That's a huge deal in this game when you look at every other character.

Bladam can sneeze and do damage I'm done lmfao but I agree with 95% of what your saying.

Honestly, I would prefer acid to be a regular move and they do something else with trait or at this point just leave trait and restore everything else on joker.

Acid was a reliable wake up. If they made acid a trait move, then I would want the invincibility back on wake up crowbar.

 

[jmt]

NRS has shown that they don't care about joker at all.

 

[Vengeance135]

NRS has shown that they don't care about joker at all.

Well let's hope someone sees our threads.

 

[Alioune]

Here is what I would change :
D2 9 frames
F2 to actualy move him forward
MB Gun mid + fixed hitbox on Gunshot
Both gas speed up
bf2 input changed to df2
Crowbar as a wakeup instead of Parry.
Better walkspeed (Robin speed)

 

[CasualPlayer]

Restoring all his nerf would be a start. Then points 2 and 5 would be great. His whole neutral can be based off his gunshot. it would make people respect his zoning which can make someone hold down or back longer then they normally would because fear of the meterburn. which can help us get in jokers normal range. and the improved d2 means opponents can't mindlessly jump in on joker which means we joker players don't have to further put ourselves at a disadvantage by constantly trying to back dash out of range with our Trex like normals or hold all that pressure.

 

[Vengeance135]

Here is what I would change :
D2 9 frames
F2 to actualy move him forward
MB Gun mid + fixed hitbox on Gunshot
Both gas speed up
bf2 input changed to df2
Crowbar as a wakeup instead of Parry.
Better walkspeed (Robin speed)

All of that stuff sounds great. Restoring all his nerfs as well and I think he would be solid.

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

Here is what I would change :
D2 9 frames
F2 to actualy move him forward
MB Gun mid + fixed hitbox on Gunshot
Both gas speed up
bf2 input changed to df2
Crowbar as a wakeup instead of Parry.
Better walkspeed (Robin speed)

Agreed on everything

 

[The PantyChrist]

You guys I hate to be the guy to say it. But regular and mb gunshot will never be a mid. The hitbox has to somewhat match the animation.
Not exploding on block sucks though. If block a super high move like that we should at least earn a dash in or something for a bar.
Also holes in strings and the removal of double digit plus frames seems to be changes made to characters across the board.
What we should be focusing on are things the character can have to make him stronger in spite of these changes and I think d2 and j2 hitboxes would be a conservative place to start

 

[Vengeance135]

You guys I hate to be the guy to say it. But regular and mb gunshot will never be a mid. The hitbox has to somewhat match the animation.
Not exploding on block sucks though. If block a super high move like that we should at least earn a dash in or something for a bar.
Also holes in strings and the removal of double digit plus frames seems to be changes made to characters across the board.
What we should be focusing on are things the character can have to make him stronger in spite of these changes and I think d2 and j2 hitboxes would be a conservative place to start

I would love these but I feel you, like I said earlier, at least restore him to his injustice 1 version and let him keep joy buzzer and do something about his trait. Seems fair right?

 

[HellblazerHawkman]

I'm thinking about Joker's trait-it increases his movement speed, correct? I would imagine that is why so many of his strings have knockback, because you can use his trait to jump in on the opponent. Only thing I am wondering is why can't you cancel into it? Or did I misunderstand the OP?

 

[ILuvFightGames]

I'm thinking about Joker's trait-it increases his movement speed, correct? I would imagine that is why so many of his strings have knockback, because you can use his trait to jump in on the opponent. Only thing I am wondering is why can't you cancel into it? Or did I misunderstand the OP?

I might not be understanding this but then isn't this the same as not having a trait?

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

I'm thinking about Joker's trait-it increases his movement speed, correct? I would imagine that is why so many of his strings have knockback, because you can use his trait to jump in on the opponent. Only thing I am wondering is why can't you cancel into it? Or did I misunderstand the OP?

No you can cancel into trait. But the concept of knocking back someone so far just to set up trait so that we can jump faster isn't very viable. There are ways to combo into trait relatively close, but the problem is trait is useless for various reasons. Every tool he has remains the same to open someone up, and these tools really are not great whatsoever.

 

[HellblazerHawkman]

Oh sure, I'm not saying the trait still doesn't suck. I'm just trying to understand why NRS built him the way they did. Depending on how his trait is changed, they might have to make a lot more changes to the character to compensate

 

[just_2swift]

Buff cyborg

 

[Alioune]

Here is what I would change :
D2 9 frames
F2 to actualy move him forward
MB Gun mid + fixed hitbox on Gunshot
Both gas speed up
bf2 input changed to df2
Crowbar as a wakeup instead of Parry.
Better walkspeed (Robin speed)

Oh and last thing, give the ability to break the running crowbar so it can be used as a way to move forward.
I think these are reasonable changes. I also they should make every single wakeup invincible move to be very punishable. This is a very huge oversight in fgs.

 

[LaidbackOne]

You guys I hate to be the guy to say it. But regular and mb gunshot will never be a mid. The hitbox has to somewhat match the animation.
Not exploding on block sucks though. If block a super high move like that we should at least earn a dash in or something for a bar.
Also holes in strings and the removal of double digit plus frames seems to be changes made to characters across the board.
What we should be focusing on are things the character can have to make him stronger in spite of these changes and I think d2 and j2 hitboxes would be a conservative place to start

Yes, holes in strings seem to be universal except Black Adam, Aquaman and Superman

 

[scarsunseen]

It'd be nice if you could dash cancel out of his crowbar run, similar to Robin. Make the crowbar his wake-up. Wake-up parry is awful. Make ex-parry a combo starter or at least guarantee me some pressure for using meter.

 

[Raiderhorn]

So we already past the let's hold off on buff/nerf thread within the first month huh