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Deadshot still sucks.

Deadshot still isn't that great. Giving him temporarily better zoning didn't help him where he struggles. He got 5 frames of recovery shaved off during trait. That's it. The wrist cannon is still 14 frames start up, which is too slow to use as a reactionary tool.

His problems of getting damage midscreen would have been solved by making assassin knee launch for a combo. His inability to get meaningful damage outside of the corner has been a problem even before his wrist cannon was nerfed.

If NRS didn't want to go that route, they could've amplified the effects of trait so that it's actually intimidating. The DOT from red trait is too low. The green trait doesn't steal enough meter. The blue trait has no change in block advantage at all.

Another gripe that I have is how Black Adam's low lightning, even after the nerfs, is still better than MB low rilfe is. Black Adam's MB lightning starts up faster, is safer on block, has nearly as much push back, tracks the opponent, does more damage on hit and block, and is unclashable. MB rifle was good when Deadshot had the ever-present threat of pre-nerf wrist cannon. With the wrist cannon nerfed, I feel like it would be good to improve the MB rifle in some way, likely in damage.
 

Kotal_Wannabe

AKA AndyPandy
His buffs changed exactly nothing. A temporary frame buff is ok, but nothing that changes any matchups, basically every opponent waits out the trait and carries right back on, which makes perfect sense to do. They shouldn't have bothered with a pity buff like that, at the very least they should have buffed his gun shot dmg so he could get abit more out of his combos and have his "zoning" count for more.

The worst thing about this buff is that people will see it and think deadshot is back when in reality he's no where near.
 
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Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Kinda expected this. Especially considering his meter build is the same and it only lasts for like, what, a few seconds? And it's cool down is longer than it's up time so in reality he gets to be a better zoner for like 1/3rd of the time, best case scenario. Not including any trades you take during the trait, whether you can actually safely get the trait out, and whether you're actually firing projectiles for the entire trait duration.

This character was terrible from the beginning. He needs a new gameplan that isn't just filling the screen with as many BF1's as humanly possible. Maybe I haven't played/played against enough Deadshot(s) to be able to say for sure, but it feels like his gameplan never changed from just firing as many projectiles down range as possible. Like Fate has the gameplan of Ankhs and orb, Cyborg can use trait, TA and grapple, Darkseid has trait and tele etc.

I would've liked more emphasis on trick-shot anti-airs on reads being better reward, while somehow giving him a mind game of forcing people to jump. Jumping against Deadshot was always kinda pointless unless he was really using those far trick-shots imo, particularly post-patch where BF1 became basically useless

Kind of irrelevant, but it would have also fitted better with his style of "I never miss" and was always really interesting to watch Deadshot hit those anti-air trick shots.
 
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Kind of irrelevant, but it would have also fitted better with his style of "I never miss" and was always really interesting to watch Deadshot hit those anti-air trick shots.
I really was hoping that they would improve the recovery of trick shot on hit so that he can actually convert off of an anti air. His best conversion is still just tacking on another trick shot. That's not enough damage to discourage someone from jumping again. You can anti air someone four times in a row but if you miss once and they get a clean jump in, you'll lose 2-3× as much health as your opponent did.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
I really was hoping that they would improve the recovery of trick shot on hit so that he can actually convert off of an anti air. His best conversion is still just tacking on another trick shot. That's not enough damage to discourage someone from jumping again. You can anti air someone four times in a row but if you miss once and they get a clean jump in, you'll lose 2-3× as much health as your opponent did.
Agreed. It looks cool and entertaining and it has it's uses but risk/reward factor is skewed out of DS's favour.

I just would've liked more fullscreen trick shots on a read of a jump, but pre-patch you would never jump because BF1 would anti-air all day, and post patch there was no point because you could just walk in without fear of BF1 meter build or MB rifle chip/pushback, among other things.

If Deadshot had something threatening on the ground that might force someone to take a risk and jump over it, then trick shot, along with some damage and maybe hitbox adjustments, would become way more useful.

Like Cyborg has a similar gameplan for that since NB hits mid, and he can go for the up NB on prediction of a jump. It doesn't get him a combo but it knocks them basically fullscreen and actually does some pretty good damage as well as allows for him to get a free trait or TA. That's the sort of gameplan I'd like to see for Deadshot but... idk. Somehow better, since it would basically be all he has.

Regular rifle forces people to jump but it's slow as balls and no one is ever going to try and jump over the MB one unless you're someone like Beetle or Brainiac.
 

Kotal_Wannabe

AKA AndyPandy
This character was terrible from the beginning. He needs a new gameplan that isn't just filling the screen with as many BF1's as humanly possible. Maybe I haven't played/played against enough Deadshot(s) to be able to say for sure, but it feels like his gameplan never changed from just firing as many projectiles down range as possible. Like Fate has the gameplan of Ankhs and orb, Cyborg can use trait, TA and grapple, Darkseid has trait and tele etc.

.
Without wrist shot, deadshot is a very badly designed character indeed, it's true. It's basically what carried him to top 3 at the start.
 
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Slymind

Noob
This character was terrible from the beginning. He needs a new gameplan that isn't just filling the screen with as many BF1's as humanly possible. Maybe I haven't played/played against enough Deadshot(s) to be able to say for sure, but it feels like his gameplan never changed from just firing as many projectiles down range as possible. Like Fate has the gameplan of Ankhs and orb, Cyborg can use trait, TA and grapple, Darkseid has trait and tele etc.

I would've liked more emphasis on trick-shot anti-airs on reads being better reward, while somehow giving him a mind game of forcing people to jump. Jumping against Deadshot was always kinda pointless unless he was really using those far trick-shots imo, particularly post-patch where BF1 became basically useless

Kind of irrelevant, but it would have also fitted better with his style of "I never miss" and was always really interesting to watch Deadshot hit those anti-air trick shots.
I've been saying this from the beginning. DS should've been a character that is supposed to be deadly with just one shot, maybe if there was some sort of re-load system, and some sort of death mark move, so he could shoot way less, but that one shot would take a chunk of health. Obviously, i'm throwing random ideas here that might be easier said than done, however, the point is, shoot less, but make every shot count, that imho would've been an interesting design, instead of the bullet hell we got.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Without wrist shot, deadshot is a very badly designed character indeed, it's true.
With wrist shot he's still pretty terribly designed. The nerf to wrist shot shows how his entire gameplan was wrist shot. Not sure how alone I am on that opinion but I don't think frame data changes are enough to make him a balanced character.

Let's take a look at how other zoners play and how Deadshot players

Examples:
  • Fate
    • MB orb is a keep out tool but doesn't last forever and he doesn't build enough meter to keep it up indefinitely. He has mid hitting projectiles that forces the opponent to do something else aside from walk in (e.g jump, MB roll, unique tools etc.).
    • His B2, F2, and DB2 command a lot of respect in a lot of MU's. B2 prevents jumps and gives him a combo into fullscreen presence, F2 commands neutral space where projectiles don't, and DB2 helps to keep Fate in that space.
    • Ankhs. Ankhs enforce block pressure, both traited and untraited. Fullscreen allows for mind games of summoning orbs, shooting projectiles for meter build, backdashing for distance, or building more ankhs. An actual threat since they launch in both forms, and a combo from Fate basically gives him an ankh (or more) and puts him fullscreen, so it requires respect.
  • Cyborg - Worse than Fate by far but you can see how his gameplan comes together
    • IAFB. Commands a proper amount of the screen. Can be ducked but they come out fast and create distance since he jumps back. Also really hard to do so it balances it out compared to DS BF1. Also significantly slower of a projectile so you're more likely to be able to get a roll in without being forced to take block pressure. Also plays into the game of:
    • Regular NB. Slower than IA's but does a chunky amount of chip and hits mid, so you either take it or you try and jump. Then;
    • Up NB. Anti-airs really well. does a good amount of damage (extra if MB'd) and gives Cyborg loads of time to setup a TA, grapple, trait or whatever he wants.
    • Diagonal NB. Works well with the IA's because they force you to take chip and are basically just as fast but sacrifice screen coverage and are easier to get in on/easier to punish.
    • TA/Trait. Same as ankhs. Enforces fullscreen respect. If you disrespect you get combo'd into another one and it just starts again. Allows for Cyborg to make distance/get out of the corner/get more shit on the screen etc.
    • Grapple. Part of his TA/trait game. Armoured get-off me tool (well, meant to be armoured) and gives him space but there's reads against it.
Now,
  • Deadshot
    • BF1. Lives and dies by the speed and meter build of this move. Duck'n'walk through it but fills up the screen and prevents jumping. Can anti-air due to projectile speed if the startup frames allow it.
    • Trick Shot. Mid projectile that can anti-air pretty inconsistently and super risky. Air BF1 is usually way safer with basically the same reward while also creating distance by jumping back. Can't use it as a main projectile due to speed and risk of being jumped over, especially compared to a decent BF1 (Like, not the current BF1)
    • BF2. Don't really see the point of this aside from hard read or combo potential. And even for hard read probably just better to use MB BF1 unless you REALLY like having meter.
    • MB Rifle. An actual good tool but usefulness is proportional to DS's meter build, and as a result, the other half of DS's gameplan/tier placement along with BF1.
    • B12U3. DS's only real other get off me tool other than MB rifle, or if you count MB BF1 which is kinda a bill as a get off me tool. Actually pretty balanced considering it's special cancellable.
Basically, Deadshot relies way way way too much on his speed and meter build of his BF1. If it's fast it's basically impossible to jump against but you can just walk in on him since it's predictable as hell. So, on paper, you eventually just walk in on him. That's where MB Rifle comes in to play - it's pushback and chip but costs bar. If Deadshot builds enough bar before you get back in, it's broken as shit. If he can't, it's kinda pointless since it's just delaying the inevitable. Then when you inevitably get knocked down you now have no bar for MB knee.

TLDR; Deadshot's gameplan is too 1 dimensional and as a result his tier placement and viability basically revolves around two of his moves, rather than all of his tools.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Ok so theory:

Regular rifle has a little more pushback and recovers/startups faster/has better block advantage.
BF1 is slightly faster but nowhere near pre-patch level.
Trick shot has better reward.

SO, with THESE, you could condition with BF1's in order to get away with greedy rifle shots which knock the opponent back. You can commit to the MB if you feel like it in order to get more + chip, but now you're opponent has to respect that option. They can still jump over it on a read (read) but then you can go into trick shot(s) on reads/reactions(?) which basically knock the opponent back again and allows for safe trait usage.

Just an example of what I'm talking about. As a result your opponent has to take risks in getting in on you. Not like they can't get in on you by just walking in, but it's going to be taking significantly longer and still building you meter (since blocked rifle would build a decent amount) and doing chip. For a more risky approach, your opponent can try and jump but then that's where Deadshot's mind game comes into play - Does he go for a rifle this time? Or is it a BF1? Is he going to read that? If you guess wrong you get knocked fullscreen again and it begins.

Just an example of what I am talking about
 
And everyone said that his wrist cannon was back to prepatch in trait. It isn't. Not only because of a 14 frame start up, but because they had given the bf1 a 10 frame extra recovery before, and taking away 5 in trait still makes it worse. The trick shot recovering faster helps, cause that starts up in 10, but it isn't enough to creat the same threat as prepatch bf1
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Do green bullets steal meter or just deplete the opponent's meter? Think it'd be nice if there was something else to use except for blue bullets like 90% of the time. Think Green should be more useful somehow and red should definitely do way more damage
 
Do green bullets steal meter or just deplete the opponent's meter? Think it'd be nice if there was something else to use except for blue bullets like 90% of the time. Think Green should be more useful somehow and red should definitely do way more damage
Just deplete and not that much really)
 

STB BroZki

Don’t know what to put here
Do green bullets steal meter or just deplete the opponent's meter? Think it'd be nice if there was something else to use except for blue bullets like 90% of the time. Think Green should be more useful somehow and red should definitely do way more damage
A good Deadshot uses all bullets. The ones who focus on blue the majority of the time are bland
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
Yes. Deadshot still sucks. I highly doubt he will ever be any good again. Fortunately, the game offers you a handful of viable zoning and hybrid-zoning characters so you can forget this character exists and focus on someone else.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
A good Deadshot uses all bullets. The ones who focus on blue the majority of the time are bland
Don't see how I'm ever going to fight a Deadshot who uses all the bullets equally. Blue's still way better than red in a lot of situations since the damage buff is super negligible and green has it's uses but is pretty situational for the most part.
 

The Farmer

Gunslinger since pre ptch -Shout out 2 Youphs 2015
Don't see how I'm ever going to fight a Deadshot who uses all the bullets equally. Blue's still way better than red in a lot of situations since the damage buff is super negligible and green has it's uses but is pretty situational for the most part.
When Foxy was using DS before the nerf hammer he was using green bullets almost exclusively
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
When Foxy was using DS before the nerf hammer he was using green bullets almost exclusively
That's true. I guess it's just because literally every single other Deadshot basically used blue bullets, but they were only pockets. The meter drain of green bullets is also, if you think about it, proportional the amount of bullets you can actually shoot. Same with red, but blue didn't suffer as hard since all you needed was 1 shot of the blue to knock them fullscreen again.

That said, not like it really mattered which one you picked on pre-patch Deadshot. You could go traitless the entire game and still meme hard
 

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
They really ought to have just reverted/improved the normal bf1 frames and kept the meter nerf imo, I get that they don't want to look bad and revert their previous change but it really would be that easy. He wouldn't have that ungodly meter that led him to having low rifle every few seconds and free escapes every time he lost in neutral, but he'd still have his single OD tool that forces respect for all his other weaker/situational tools.

Personally? I'm still kinda bummed there's no real use for db2, it's stylish looking but it's only really good for MB unclashable stuff and a couple specific trait combos unless I'm missing something.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
They really ought to have just reverted/improved the normal bf1 frames and kept the meter nerf imo, I get that they don't want to look bad and revert their previous change but it really would be that easy. He wouldn't have that ungodly meter that led him to having low rifle every few seconds and free escapes every time he lost in neutral, but he'd still have his single OD tool that forces respect for all his other weaker/situational tools.

Personally? I'm still kinda bummed there's no real use for db2, it's stylish looking but it's only really good for MB unclashable stuff and a couple specific trait combos unless I'm missing something.
yea I'd prefer if they nerfed all his specials collectively to bring him back to his old days (without the meter build) but I think BF1 change is just the ez way
 

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
yea I'd prefer if they nerfed all his specials collectively to bring him back to his old days (without the meter build) but I think BF1 change is just the ez way
Cheers, and I agree with what you said. His design is too one dimensional, and I don't really think that without fundamentally altering his tools they can balance him really well now.