Dead Game? MK11 Had the Highest Views of Any Game at EVO On Saturday

[Juggs]

You mention a great point. I believe that fighting games commonly last for two reasons.

1. The meta is initially complex and takes a long time to develop.
2. New content and balance updates constantly change the meta.

Obviously, the first predicate applies to older, nostalgic games (i.e., Melee, 3s, MvC2, ST, UMK:3, etc.) while the second applies to any modern fighting games. Mortal Kombat 11 has neither so the game was never going to last anyway.

It’s something I have felt for awhile now. But it’s something that’s much harder to I guess “prove” so I typically try not to point it out as much. I just personally believe that there’s a lot of games these days that tend to follow the same idea, but I feel like it more directly applies to NRS games.

This may be in conspiracy territory, but just think about it though. With NRS’ business model, It doesn’t benefit them as a business (or as company really), to have players continue playing the game after NRS stops supporting it. And I’m mainly talking about after the new game comes out. So they’re incentivized to make a game that won’t have lasting power WITHOUT the continued support from them. This is why I say they’ve cultivated a culture to where once they stop supporting the game, the community quickly loses interest. Also, SINCE the games aren’t really built to last, by the time they do stop supporting it, a lot of players have already gotten tired or burnt out on the game in some way anyway.

To be clear, I’m not making any accusations or saying this in a matter of fact kind of way. Just an opinion I’ve had for awhile on how NRS operates. I could be 100% completely wrong about this. ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[M2Dave]

This may be in conspiracy territory, but just think about it though. With NRS’ business model, It doesn’t benefit them as a business (or as company really), to have players continue playing the game after NRS stops supporting it. And I’m mainly talking about after the new game comes out. So they’re incentivized to make a game that won’t have lasting power WITHOUT the continued support from them. This is why I say they’ve cultivated a culture to where once they stop supporting the game, the community quickly loses interest. Also, SINCE the games aren’t really built to last, by the time they do stop supporting it, a lot of players have already gotten tired or burnt out on the game in some way anyway.

I believe the reason is fairly simple: quantity over quality in order to make a profit, as is the case in almost every facet of the American economy.

NRS's business model, or rather the business model directed by Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment, is unconducive to a high quality fighting game that can be enjoyed in the long term. However, I do not at all believe that the NRS development staff are incompetent. They are just working with the cards that they are dealt every two years. After two years of support, fighting games like Street Fighter 5 and Tekken 7 were in a bad, arguably much worse, place than Mortal Kombat 11 was in terms of content and balance. The fact is that due to Capcom's and Namco's business model, there is a lot more time to add content and/or modify the meta.

 

[Marlow]

After two years of support, fighting games like Street Fighter 5 and Tekken 7 were in a bad, arguably much worse, place than Mortal Kombat 11 was in terms of content and balance. The fact is that due to Capcom's and Namco's business model, there is a lot more time to add content and/or modify the meta.

I wonder how the different business models affects the community attitude/maturity. Seems like the NRS community is a lot faster to trash and give up on their own games.

 

[Jynks]

I think it is as thery have trained us to be. The release schedule was so fast and so constant that many people thought.. well I can stop learning and evolving a new game is out soon. As a community we were trained to move on quickly. Also, and lets be honest, it is only in recent years that MK has actually been a legit competitive fighter. Bitching about completely broken things is in decades and decades of experience for the older community members. With luck NRS will keep with these long term commitment to their games and make the community realise that the games life can and will be much longer.

 

[Tony at Home]

We had 12 different characters in top 8. No one is staying away from this game just because it's not getting some supposedly sorely needed balance patch. Alot of people say that, but we'd get the patch, and nothing would change about their attitude.

People said the same about unlocking customs for kompetetive. Literally no one who said that was what the game needed changed their mind after that. No one.

Just admit you don't like the game and that nothing will change that.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

We had 12 different characters in top 8. No one is staying away from this game just because it's not getting some supposedly sorely needed balance patch. Alot of people say that, but we'd get the patch, and nothing would change about their attitude.

People said the same about unlocking customs for kompetetive. Literally no one who said that was what the game needed changed their mind after that. No one.

Just admit you don't like the game and that nothing will change that.

Agreed. If a new character released tomorrow, people would play the character for 3 weeks, then start yelling about how the character is either broken or not good enough, and then go back to complaining that there's no new content.

I do think that it'd be good if support covered these longer gaps; but we hit the highest views on Saturday for any game (including ones that are currently receiving updates) and the tournament was great. And that's after great events at both CEO and ComboBreaker. It will live for as long as people want to continue competing.

 

[Jynks]

we hit the highest views on Saturday for any game (including ones that are currently receiving updates) and the tournament was great.

good luck getting the evo TOs to admit that. After they dumped us from the main stage I hold a real resentment for evo. They do us dirty as the event is old core guys back when MK was not competitive and seen as a side show in the FGC... which it just ain't anymore. Fuck those guys. Combo Breaker is out evo!

 

[M2Dave]

Just admit you don't like the game and that nothing will change that.

Nothing? What purpose do you think patches and content, which may include additional characters as well as new and/or altered gameplay mechanics, serve other than to change the manner in which the game is played?

As far as disliking games is concerned, aside from season 1, I disliked Street Fighter 5 until Capcom implemented V-Shift. I enjoy the game a lot now.

Likewise, I really disliked Tekken 7 when Leroy was deliberately released overpowered so that Namco could maximize profits. He has since been toned down. He remains a top tier character and has become of my favorite characters.

The fact is that Mortal Kombat 11 was in desperate need of changes to fatal blows, the wake up system, and/or breakaways. If certain changes had been implemented, I would have continued playing. I want to like, not hate, the game.

good luck getting the evo TOs to admit that. After they dumped us from the main stage I hold a real resentment for evo.

While the viewership numbers were the highest on Saturday, the registration numbers were one of the lowest at 464. Mortal Kombat 11 was never going to get a spot on Sunday over games like Guilty Gear Strive, Street Fighter 5, Tekken 7, and King of Fighters 15, each of which had over 1,000 players.

After the first year of release, registration numbers for NRS fighting games decrease by more than 50%. The EVO staff must be aware so the game is probably not on the main stage for this reason.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

good luck getting the evo TOs to admit that. After they dumped us from the main stage I hold a real resentment for evo. They do us dirty as the event is old core guys back when MK was not competitive and seen as a side show in the FGC... which it just ain't anymore. Fuck those guys. Combo Breaker is out evo!

They did it strictly by registration numbers this year (which imo, is a pretty big improvement over the old "let's just pick our personal favorites" method). So the games with the highest number of entrants made it to Sunday.

 

[SaltShaker]

We had 12 different characters in top 8. No one is staying away from this game just because it's not getting some supposedly sorely needed balance patch. Alot of people say that, but we'd get the patch, and nothing would change about their attitude.

People said the same about unlocking customs for kompetetive. Literally no one who said that was what the game needed changed their mind after that. No one.

Just admit you don't like the game and that nothing will change that.

I'm not sure that arguing "nothing will make someone who doesn't like the game like it" is a sound argument. It depends person by person and what their complaints are.

For example, SF imo was a pretty terrible game until many balance patches and system upgrades/changes later, now it's an amazing game. Maybe even the best game which is wild to think of a few years ago. I love Tekken, but pretty much put the game on ice for a year when Leroy and Fahk were breaking the meta in S3, yet now I'm counting down the days to the new system mechanic and update.

Flip that to MK, and some complaints I/we/they/whoever had Day 1 were never addressed. Not going to bog down the thread with that, but for one simple example (I'd have a lot of examples) if I as a player feel like "man Fatal Blow is an all-time garbage comeback mechanic, this needs an overhaul asap", and it just stays "almost" the same infinitely, it's going to either tell me I need to "just deal with it" or "play something else". A balance patch or whatever is never going to fix core issues of a game for someone who believes core issues are the problem and not character balance. If someone doesn't believe something is an issue, they'll likely enjoy the game much more.

So I don't think it's fair to say nothing can make people who criticize the game happy. Had there been changes at some point to things I complained about after the first week, I'd likely never have dropped the game, as I never dropped an NRS game before until MK11. If they made the changes today I'd be playing by tonight. I'm sure there are some people who the game isn't for them no matter what, but like the SF reference earlier, games can be improved and be vastly superior to their launch versions. This one wasn't, and it's fine to call it as it is because you want to hold them to the standard that other fighting games are producing right now.

 

[Juggs]

Exact same thing I’ve been saying. The “one more patch crowd” doesn’t seem to realize that there will always be a “one more patch” crowd. Even if MK11 got one more patch, you’d eventually have people saying “man, all this game needs is one more patch!”.

The point isn’t that another patch is needed, it’s that when dev support stops for an NRS game, the majority of the community stops playing, because we have been conditioned to do so. And the ones that do continue to play, at least 90% of them will drop the game completely once the new game comes out as well. Of course, this same thing happens with every other fighting game franchise when the new one comes out. But most other fighting games last for like at least 3x the amount of time that NRS games last.

So to reiterate once again, there’s two major issues. NRS’ business model and how they not only patch the game but also support it via tournaments and promotion has conditioned most us to stop really caring once all that stops. But the other major issue is these games aren’t built to last, certainly not for 10+ years, let alone 5+ years.

But who knows, maybe they’ll accidentally crack the formula and create a game that a ton of people are passionate about and it has so much depth and quality to it that tons of people will still want to play it once NRS stops supporting it and even after the newer game comes out. I doubt that’s ever going to happen but hey, it isn’t impossible. ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[SaltShaker]

Exact same thing I’ve been saying. The “one more patch crowd” doesn’t seem to realize that there will always be a “one more patch” crowd. Even if MK11 got one more patch, you’d eventually have people saying “man, all this game needs is one more patch!”.

The point isn’t that another patch is needed, it’s that when dev support stops for an NRS game, the majority of the community stops playing, because we have been conditioned to do so. And the ones that do continue to play, at least 90% of them will drop the game completely once the new game comes out as well. Of course, this same thing happens with every other fighting game franchise when the new one comes out. But most other fighting games last for like at least 3x the amount of time that NRS games last.

So to reiterate once again, there’s two major issues. NRS’ business model and how they not only patch the game but also support it via tournaments and promotion has conditioned most us to stop really caring once all that stops. But the other major issue is these games aren’t built to last, certainly not for 10+ years, let alone 5+ years.

Another note, something I heard at Evo. How much do you think having rotating games of MK/Inj for 10 years damaged the player base? We've been around long enough to have seen the arguments over the games in real time. I heard this argument over the weekend though. Basically that it created somewhat of a split within the same community, where some players prefer one game and others prefer the other, but due to the 2 year cycle felt obligated to jump to the new NRS game. Those who preferred Inj more will more easily bash MK heavier as they're in the part of the cycle that isn't their game. Once there wasn't a cycle anymore (end of support, Inj3 skip, etc) it hurt both bases in different ways. I thought about comparing it to Smash but fell flat when trying to contextualize it.

But who knows, maybe they’ll accidentally crack the formula and create a game that a ton of people are passionate about and it has so much depth and quality to it that tons of people will still want to play it once NRS stops supporting it and even after the newer game comes out. I doubt that’s ever going to happen but hey, it isn’t impossible. ¯\(ツ)/¯

Lol! Injustice 1 is still the GOAT NRS game deserving of GGPO and a player base. No patch needed.

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

But does a game need years upon years of support to be liked/to have it continue to be played? Look at MK9, that game received the least amount of support compared to the other NRS games yet it is the most beloved. It just feels like "lack of support" seems like an excuse for disliking a game when in reality no amount of support would make certain people ever like the game because it will never play like MK9 or MKX. And you know what, that's ok, dislike the game for what it is and how it plays and the mechanics etc... but not because of a lack of support especially when that same person probably loves MK9.

The MK community during MK9 and the MK community today are almost the complete opposite. Even when I was playing bad or getting burned out of the game, the community was still really fun. Insane shit talking, gambling, drinking, call outs, challenges, etc. Fuck it was fun. Then it turned into an extremely PC environment where respecting hypersentitive people's feelings was more important than having fun. A lot of us knew it was only a matter of time before we pissed off the wrong person and ruined our public persona around games. It wasn't worth the hassle.

I stopped supporting/attending tournaments, as did a lot of my friends, which unfortunately led to my local shutting down due to lack of interest. Then the place that hosted it went out of business due to the extreme reaction to covid. I still play online, but I'll never use a known gamer tag or anything associated with my real identity. If I do ever go to a tournament again, I'll be sure to wear a dress and 11 paper masks to help me blend in better with the new anti-bullying culture.

Support of the game is most important to the most die hard players. The community is what made it fun for the rest of us, and that shit went the way of the dodo a long time ago. In my opinion, the less NRS messed with the game, the less chance they had to fuck it up. I'm convinced they were never great at designing/testing/balancing their games and just got lucky a few times. They cherry picked a lot of great players from the community to work for NRS and it seemed to only make the games worse.

And yes, there's always going to be those players, some here, that think that the only problem with the games is the people playing it. NRS can do no wrong and if you aren't enthralled by their crap, you're the problem.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Another note, something I heard at Evo. How much do you think having rotating games of MK/Inj for 10 years damaged the player base? We've been around long enough to have seen the arguments over the games in real time. I heard this argument over the weekend though. Basically that it created somewhat of a split within the same community, where some players prefer one game and others prefer the other, but due to the 2 year cycle felt obligated to jump to the new NRS game. Those who preferred Inj more will more easily bash MK heavier as they're in the part of the cycle that isn't their game. Once there wasn't a cycle anymore (end of support, Inj3 skip, etc) it hurt both bases in different ways. I thought about comparing it to Smash but fell flat when trying to contextualize it.

This happens even within single games, though. Like SF4 was controversial to the SF3 crowd, a lot of 3rd Strike vets quit, a lot continuted to play but complained about comeback mechanics, option selects, and all sorts of things.. Then people got used to it, but when SF5 came out, it was again highly controversial, etc.

I will not be surprised if the SF6 system changes prove controversial at launch to a lot of top SF5 players.. It's just how it goes.

The bottom line is: we need to stop making excuses. There will always be something about every game that someone will dislike, and if you are looking for an excuse to bash a game, you'll find it. The mature way to handle it is to just realize when a game is not your cup of tea, and stop playing it. Don't try to ruin other people's fun, and don't kill your own community by becoming toxic due to your preferences.

In the end, every community must survive ups and downs; it's building for the future regardless of the circumstances that provides opportunities for everyone.

 

[SaltShaker]

This happens even within single games, though. Like SF4 was controversial to the SF3 crowd, a lot of 3rd Strike vets quit, a lot continuted to play but complained about comeback mechanics, option selects, and all sorts of things.. Then people got used to it, but when SF5 came out, it was again highly controversial, etc.

I will not be surprised if the SF6 system changes prove controversial at launch to a lot of top SF5 players.. It's just how it goes.

The bottom line is: we need to stop making excuses. There will always be something about every game that someone will dislike, and if you are looking for an excuse to bash a game, you'll find it. The mature way to handle it is to just realize when a game is not your cup of tea, and stop playing it. Don't try to ruin other people's fun, and don't kill your own community by becoming toxic due to your preferences.

In the end, every community must survive ups and downs; it's building for the future regardless of the circumstances that provides opportunities for everyone.

I agree with your SF timeline. You're actually right, most games do have players upset about changes early on. You can add the Tekken comparison as well. Remember adding the "Rage Arts" and "Rage Drive" for example? Players went ballistic (I still think it's a garbage mechanic but can live with it now). Some people will complain about SF6 and/or T8, that's a given, it's just how it goes. Agreed with all of that.

I don't agree with the "don't criticize" part though. If you're passionate about a game or series you want it to be the best it can be. As in, I don't think openly criticizing a game is toxic at all unless all you do is forever bash it without constructive criticism and don't play it, there's a line. For me personally, Tekken and MK/Inj was my two favorite series, so it hurt big when MK11 didn't do it for me, so I eventually went ghost lol (to like you said not ruin it for others). But I'm hoping MK12 will be more in line with what I'd come to expect and appreciate from NRS. If people just "accepted" SF5 for what it was or stepped on eggshells to be nice guys, it very likely would be the same garbage trashcan game it was on launch, and not one of the best fighting games of the time that it has become. Sometimes that's what it takes to get the results, being loud about your dissatisfaction. Take MKX. I believe MKX received the elite GGPO netcode buff post-launch that everyone loved in part due to player backlash about lag. I believe MKX was made a much faster game after Inj1 due to Inj1 being heavily criticized as "too slow". Etc. Criticism is probably even more important than praise.


I don't think it's too dissimilar from what we are seeing now. Or it won't be, compared to what we are seeing SNK do after criticism, or Capcom revamping their non-existent communication of old. I'd be pretty confident that NRS has evaluated current backlash way before this conversation, and are looking to make adjustments prior to MK12. I'd even say I'm 99.9% sure some mechanics will be different, they will have extended support similar to other fighters, better communication, etc. This community is unique in where they won't go back to Inj2 or MKX, so it's new game or bust types of scenario each game. Whether some people will be accepting of the new game is another story altogether, but if they do it right like they did most times it should be fine and potentially steal players from other games.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I don't agree with the "don't criticize" part though. If you're passionate about a game or series you want it to be the best it can be. As in, I don't think openly criticizing a game is toxic at all unless all you do is forever bash it without constructive criticism and don't play it, there's a line. For me personally, Tekken and MK/Inj was my two favorite series, so it hurt big when MK11 didn't do it for me, so I eventually went ghost lol (to like you said not ruin it for others). B

Yeah, I definitely wasn't saying not to criticize a title. But when it crosses the line, to the point where people are attempting to destroy the hype for people who do want to play and invest their time, it becomes ridiculous.

I wasn't that much into the meta of MKX, but I still supported the hell out of the scene anyway. I made my thoughts clear on exactly where I thought the 50/50s, run button and armor were going to lead to.. And I played it anyway, and tried to learn skills that would translate to other games moving forward.

What I did not do was show up every time there was a positive event for the game to complain, try to sour the hype around every single tournament, and keep trying to convince other people not to like the game. At some point down the road, a game is fundamentally going to be what it's going to be, and it's necessary to realize that and move along.

There's a big difference between constructive and destructive criticism, and a lot of people have forgotten how to do the former.

 

[M2Dave]

The MK community during MK9 and the MK community today are almost the complete opposite.

The mentality was different, as you accurately indicated, because the players were different. You can count the number of Mortal Kombat 9 players who play and travel for Mortal Kombat 11 on one hand. This number of "old" players is significantly higher in other fighting games such as Street Fighter and Tekken, which have a far superior ratio of "new/young" and "old" players. By the way, I am using quotation marks as someone like Sonic Fox, who is only 24 years old yet has been a part of the competitive NRS scene since Mortal Kombat 9, hardly classifies as "old". LOL.

Continuing with the point, though, attributing one reason for this difference in players would be foolish as it involves several reasons, some of which have absolutely nothing to do with NRS, but a couple of reasons must be the frequency and lack of consistent legacy of NRS fighting games. People can mention other communities and fighting games all they want, but these fighting games continue preserving a substantial portion of their player base, irrespective of the differences between each game.

 

[Pizza]

Lol! Injustice 1 is still the GOAT NRS game deserving of GGPO and a player base. No patch needed.

I miss Injustice 1 so much. I feel they cut support for it too soon. It was definitely the Superior Injustice.

 

[Marlow]

The mentality was different, as you accurately indicated, because the players were different.

Context around the game was pretty different too. MK9 was one of the first legit competitive games NRS made, and there wasn't really anything to compare it to. Tournament scene was different, social media scene was different, online scene was different, even tutorial/resources to get better were way different. NRS community was also smaller and less mature at the time.

 

[Juxtapose]

There's a big difference between constructive and destructive criticism, and a lot of people have forgotten how to do the former.

^This. I've said it before and I'm saying it again, there's a huge difference between constructive criticism and whining, and you rarely see constructive criticism anymore.

I don't just mean in this community, I mean in gaming communities in general.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Felt like sharing my two cents here since I've been detached from NRS games for awhile and feel like taking a step back has allowed me to gain new perspective.

I think giving any kind of a shit about EVO views is weird, especially as a metric of any kind of interest in the games. Like, so what if MK got 64k? It was still one of the bottom of the barrel games in viewership. We already know there's plenty of people that watch every game at EVO to watch it whether they think a game is good or not.

MK11 to me is dead. Yeah, there are people that play it, but I disagree with the idea that a game can not be dead simply because two people are playing it at any given time. To me, a game being dead means there's no more active passionate community around it and THAT is definitely the case for MK11. There's online tournaments all thrown by the same people all competed in by the same people that are all buds with each other with the occasional dark horse. Discords for the game are dead. Character specific discords literally died as a concept with MK11 because there was so little to dig into about the game. This forum is barely surviving as far as I can tell and there's no doubt MK11 is partly responsible for that.

"We", not me obviously because I only ever demanded better, but this community has decided it doesn't want to demand better of NRS. I hope the next game is a huge step up and it sees them break trends and habits they entrenched themselves in over the years but at some point you guys gotta realize you've been playing fighting games that are barely competent at best no matter how much you love the franchise. This shit is for meathead horny teenagers, it hasn't evolved beyond it's 90's meme-y roots and even worse it's become Marvel-fied in it's story presentation which is arguably a step down from it's 90's cheese roots.

These games aren't deep nor stimulating on any level except MKX, which I think even with the obvious gripes is NRS's best game. Aside from that, I find the idea anyone found any kind of competitive enjoyment in any NRS game, even the supposed pinnacles like UMK3 worth investing any time in to be ludicrous.

MK11 was not only one of the most shallow fighting games I think that has ever been made, it did so while also doing so many things to detract from what little identity the franchise had. This game should not be celebrated under any circumstance and I highly implore anyone who likes the game to please try branching out and play other things. I've played JRPGs with more depth this year than MK11.

 

[Marlow]

I think MK11 has the most depth of any MK game. I don't really care whether people think the game is dead or not, or if they think TYM is dead or not. I enjoy the game, there's still competitive matches to watch which I find interesting, it's still easy to find games online, and I like coming here to shoot the shit with people.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

I think MK11 has the most depth of any MK game.

 

[Marlow]

 

[Espio]

I have to hand it to you Crimson, you have a lot of drive to try to promote positive vibes for this game. I really have a passion for the game so I find posting on here or trying to engage here to be very exhausting but you seem indefatigable. Personally, I've traveled for Frosty, Combo Breaker, EVO and am considering attending the final KIT in October.

Stating a game is dead because YOU don't like it or play it does not make it so. The competition is fierce in these tournaments and people are still playing their hearts out for this game. There is a segment of people here and mainly off this website that host tournaments, online exhibitions, and seasons of content on Twitch, Youtube and other media formats. You can still to this day join about 20 different events online and events are hosted Monday-Sunday in various discords. This site is a drop in the bucket for what actually happens in this scene and support for this game.

Thank you for the positive energy Crimson. EVO was hype as shit an I enjoyed it so much, top 8 was a blast and competing offline again since the start of 2022 has been a blast.


I'm going back into the void <3.