General/Other - Sub-Zero CRYOMANCER CHANGES

[Ryu Hayabusa]

If they had given more unique strings to each variation we wouldn't be in this situation.

 

[Tweedy]

I'd play this character, if there weren't others with a similar archetype that have 6 and 7 frame pokes.

7 frame D1 or die.

 

[Darth-Nero]

Cryomancer appeared a couple times in I believe ESL season 2, but Cryomancer's whole game plan is just a high damaging 50/50. There's very little else to him.

What more is needed off of a single variation, honestly? Just because grandmaster vastly over shadows cryo doesn't put the latter anywhere near the "lacking" category.

Says the guy who has his period about Raiden being "ruined" or whatever.

Everything being said about what Raiden needs is legitimate and mutual amongst the majority of the high level players in and outside Raiden's community. Versus a scrub like you who's struggling with a potato variation, no executions 42% mid-screen one bar combo and above average 50/50's so he cries for batshit crazy buffs that would make the character even more ridiculous now who's having his period here?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

What more is needed off of a single variation, honestly? Just because grandmaster vastly over shadows cryo doesn't put the latter anywhere near the "lacking" category.



Everything being said about what Raiden needs is legitimate and mutual amongst the majority of the high level players in and outside Raiden's community. Versus a scrub like you who's struggling with a potato variation, no executions 42% mid-screen one bar combo and above average 50/50's so he cries for batshit crazy buffs that would make the character even more ridiculous now who's having his period here?

1. Execution doesn't determine how good a character is

2. I'm a scrub, you caught me

3. All he has is a 50/50. He is lacking in safety, slow pokes, no plus frames, and he is redundant. What about his 50/50 is above average? Is it because it does good damage for a bar? Lol.

4. Yeah sure all high level players think Raiden is booty, that's why REO put Displacer in A+.

 

[PapaRegadetho]

I dunno guys, Cryo is quite a decent variation, its just super boring. Unbreakable might need some help though.

 

[coconutshrimp]

What more is needed off of a single variation, honestly? Just because grandmaster vastly over shadows cryo doesn't put the latter anywhere near the "lacking" category.



Everything being said about what Raiden needs is legitimate and mutual amongst the majority of the high level players in and outside Raiden's community. Versus a scrub like you who's struggling with a potato variation, no executions 42% mid-screen one bar combo and above average 50/50's so he cries for batshit crazy buffs that would make the character even more ridiculous now who's having his period here?

I mean Pig made ESL S1 finals and got top 3 or 4, 1 one of the 2, with Balanced Kenshi. does that mean Kenshi is a good character who needs nothing? hell no. So this one or two ESL weeklies as evidence for Cryo being good is really kind of stoopid.

How ridiculous is Cryo really? Can you tell me what makes Cryo so ridiculous and if your argument is his no execution damage, then I'm sorry but that's not a very strong argument.

 

[Lokheit]

What more is needed off of a single variation, honestly? Just because grandmaster vastly over shadows cryo doesn't put the latter anywhere near the "lacking" category.



Everything being said about what Raiden needs is legitimate and mutual amongst the majority of the high level players in and outside Raiden's community. Versus a scrub like you who's struggling with a potato variation, no executions 42% mid-screen one bar combo and above average 50/50's so he cries for batshit crazy buffs that would make the character even more ridiculous now who's having his period here?

I'm failing to understand this point of yours... how is that if Grandmaster, a variation that isn't even S tier, that is quite good but far from perfect, with its good share of heavy counterpicks, according to your own words "vastly overshadows cryo" then according to your words too cryo isn't "anywhere near the "lacking" category"? Isn't being "vastly overshadowed" by a variation that isn't even in the highest tier of the game the definition of "lacking"?

Cryomancer is a variation that is very good in scrub versus scrub matches, because if neither have any game fundamentals at all, sure, let's throw 40% combos around with slow and unsafe 50/50s (next thing you know, Kenjutsu is S+ tier for the same reasons). But against someone that has the slightest idea of game fundamentals? Then you realize it's a predictable variation, completly honest and with no tools to make the opponent respect it.

Cryo isn't a guy that runs in, face on, and unloads a 50/50 like you seem to picture him, he doesn't have the neutral game to do that without getting destroyed for trying something so stupid. His 50/50s only come after a good defense gaining a frame advantage (but forget it if the opponent has good pressure) and after landing a combo which is his only window to gain momentum (and it isn't like he's a vortex character, the opponent still has many options in that situation).

If the argument is going to be "but his 50/50 so damaging so low execution" I can't take you seriously. Only ones I've met raging about Cryo are online button smashers. Cryo CAN'T afford to use its meter for damage most times, he needs every bit of it to overcompensate for its deficiencies.

We're not even asking for it to be perfect, just for it to not be an open book automatically destroyed in obscene ways by anyone with a decent neutral game or pressure. Too linear, too honest, no tools, no respect.

Also: Check REO's tier list, it's pretty accurate and places Cryo with the worst variations of the game, not saying it has to be 100% true but he isn't the first methodical and analytical player stating that Cryo is bad. I don't know where this "high level players" statemet of yours to declare Cryo is good is coming from, the only sources of this kind of statements I have are ocasional online button smashers.

For the record: I think Raiden needs his fair share of help too. I don't know what's this thing with players rushing to other's players characters "buff request" threads to smash them down claiming that it's their character that needs help, that only his balance statements about his main are valid and everyone else wanting buffs for a different character needs to learn to play. It's not mutually exclusive: both characters can be in a bad situation.

 

[Ragnarök Tyr]

Personally I've never seen someone break ex Ice Hammer on reaction from a block string. Isn't it -4 with a good deal of push back? Adding 2 hits of armor on it seems a bit much.

 

[crosshair271]

• 111 last hit being overhead.
• 114 no more negative frames or bellyflop on hit(make it like Johnny or Liu's 11 kick strings) and cancelable.
• NJP has ice sword animation like Outlaw Erron.
• Ice Hammers can be run cancelled.
• Clearly Air Hammer was meant for cross-ups but is useless because BLOCK button. So unblockable ground pound.
• Give Air Hammer EX version that pops up for combo opportunity like Shinnok's Hellfire but no unblockable ground pound.
• (If no on the Hammer run cancels originally I begged for Ice Shower, think Tremor unblockables.)

 

[crosshair271]

Personally I've never seen someone break ex Ice Hammer on reaction from a block string. Isn't it -4 with a good deal of push back? Adding 2 hits of armor on it seems a bit much.

It got broken a lot in the Melbourne tournament.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Changes I want to see.

Normals:
F12 +2 (like it is in other variations)
F122 -6 on block

111, hits overhead on the last hit and is -3 on block

F421+3 is -9 on and special cancelable on block.

F421+3 gets a MB version that does DOT over time (up to 8%) but can't be special cancelled on hit.


Specials:

Iceball becomes an ice dagger projectile (lile ct kano) that does 2% chip on block but is a high and freezes on hit. Full combo punishable as iceball currently is.

Meterburn version throws two ice daggers that are high but +4 on block. Only f4 would jail into this special on block. He desperately needs meter because he doesn't have an ice clone so this is something for him.

Ice hammer is now 22 frames of startup and -7 on block with same pushback.

Meterburn version comes out at 17 frames, slightly less pushback, and -12

Air Ice hammer hits low when the hammer touches the ground.

Air Ice hammer now has a meter burn version launches for a combo and is -2 on block.

And slightly less damage scaling by 2-3% to balance things out a bit.

 

[crosshair271]

Changes I want to see.

Normals:
F421+3 gets a MB version that does DOT over time (up to 8%) but can't be special cancelled on hit.

Specials:
Iceball becomes an ice dagger projectile (lile ct kano) that does 2% chip on block but is a high and freezes on hit. Full combo punishable as iceball currently is.

I really like that stab DOT kinda like Outlaw Erron's Tarkatan Stab.

Could he keep Iceball and get dagger as a BF2?

 

[STRYKIE]

What more is needed off of a single variation, honestly? Just because grandmaster vastly over shadows cryo doesn't put the latter anywhere near the "lacking" category.



Everything being said about what Raiden needs is legitimate and mutual amongst the majority of the high level players in and outside Raiden's community. Versus a scrub like you who's struggling with a potato variation, no executions 42% mid-screen one bar combo and above average 50/50's so he cries for batshit crazy buffs that would make the character even more ridiculous now who's having his period here?

It's not about Cryomancer being AS good as Grandmaster, it's that it doesn't provide any uses for the areas where Grandmaster falls short.

• Ice Hammers can be run cancelled.

I don't think you realize how big of a gamble this would be....

 

[Tanno]

I tested it and realized that this Air Ice Hammer is a big gamble, because if you do the Air Ice Hammer, the opponent will stand up and do the punish. It would be nice if they had made the Air Ice Hammer a bit faster, so that Subby could block as early as possible. BTW, give Air Ice Hammer an EX. Its basic attack is 6%, so if they EX it, it will give a 12%.

This one is quite useful, if worked properly.

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

Things would be lot better if they gave him icy freeze from DC vs mortal kombat. Subzero is not subzero without 2 options to freeze.

Ice ball and Klone for grand master

Ice ball and icy freeze for cryomancer

Ice ball and frost barrier for unbreakable.

I also agree with JP being sword attack.

I don't think they will make air hammer Unblockable, just make it full screen attack that can be blocked low and ex pops up opponent.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Cryo and unbreakable desperately need ways to keep building meter since the character is so depedent on it. Unlike gm, he doesnt get to make clones and throw/shatter them all day.

 

[the.hamburglar]

Yes our minus -13, 17 frame overhead that only nets significant damage in the corner or in trashomancer.

I perfer Cryocancer but hey that works too

 

[Temp]

111 last hit being an OH won't fix much... I mean, it makes sense with the animation and it would allow you to mix it with Slide, but that's not really Cryo's problem. If it happens it's a good thing but I wouldn't prioritize it.

Additional armor on hammer would help dealing with pressure but I don't think something like that will happen honestly. Not a priority either as EX Burst is still a good option against faster moves, it won't lead to as much damage but it's a tool.

IMO (and I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record saying the same thing for months) Cryo's main problem is that it's a variation that is based on punishing... without tools to create punishing opportunities and a very linear, honest and predictable game.

Because variationless Sub-Zero overcompensates so much for GM having the klone with all of its utility and control, Cryo suffers a lot against characters with decent to good neutral and pressure (if good at both, it gets painful).

Main 2 things I'd like to see, so at least opponents need to respect him would be (if possible both, at least one):

- F122 last 2 hits (the sword ones) becoming a new string (F22 is available). Very simple change and they created new strings for characters like Kenshi recycling parts of existing strings, so it's perfectly viable.

With this Cryo gets a long range safe check/starter at a decent speed: SZs long range moves are on the second hit of his strings in general, making them really slow and not viable for neutral and footsies at all. It might not be on the level of some other characters in that department, but at least it would be something that the opponent needs to be aware of when approaching you.

- Air Hammer changes:

* Remove the armor breaking part. It only has a purpose in the corner, the reward for landing it isn't a big deal and there are more scenarios where you lose by using it. After your typical Hammer finisher in the corner NJP, NJK and even empty jump are all preferable options against someone that knows what he's doing so I couldn't care less about the armor breaking part because it hardly comes into play. I also want to tone the move down a bit in order to apply the other change.

* Make Air Hammer a full screen ground pound (unblockable full screen ground based attack) like other similar moves. With enough skill, instant air hammer would allow you to trick opponents and every now and then force a bad jump that you could punish with a slide o certain combos depending on the situation.

With this change, Air Hammer now becomes a part of Cryo's toolset rather than a gimmick filler move (something that a variation exclusive shouldn't be IMHO) with a completly different role and again, it helps with the "respect Cryo" department. With Air Hammer being so slow it isn't like it would be too powerful, but at least it would be a serviceable tool.

I think with both changes combined, Cryo still wouldn't be a top dog by a longshot, but at least he would be able to deal with some of his weaknesses and while pressure would still be problematic and you should keep your meter to get out of it, approaching Cryo to start that pressure wouldn't be such an easy cake anymore.

Though I don't know if I'd pick those changes. Air hammer ground pound wouldn't be one of my choices; it would be a good tool, but I feel it's counter to his momentum style. Honestly, I think air hammer is underrated in some matches. Yes, you lose your turn on block, but you can bridge the gap without getting blown up, so even if you lose your turn initially, that's a risk I'm willing to take in some matches. All that said, I agree with the philosophy behind your choices.

Overall, I think Cryo actually has a very strong neutral game... it's just that so many of the top tiers don't HAVE to play neutral, so Cryo is relying mostly on momentum and risk-taking to survive. I like the idea of making the 2, 2 of the F+1,22 it's own string. However, I do need the F+1 timing to hitconfirm. Then again, it's kind of a "why not both?" scenario, so yeah, that would be cool.

Truthfully, there's only three changes I'd really want to see:

1) Make regular Ice Hammer 21 frames on startup. This makes it a genuine footsie tool but is still technically reactable, and this improves his neutral greatly. If the opponent is mentally waiting to react to hammer, then Sub-Zero could use that apprehension to run-up and start offense.

2) Make regular Ice-Hammer have an airborne hitbox. Before people complain, this is still far inferior to anti-air clone given that hammer goes into a knockdown as opposed to a combo (that can rush you into the corner), and aggressive opponents shouldn't even be concerned if they're playing the ground game. All this will do is add more safety to his footsies, which I think even the up-players will agree is reasonable.

3. Make F+1 have 8 start-up frames and make F+1,2,2 negative 6 on block. That's a 14-frame gap for someone to counterpoke if Sub tries to pressure with another F+1,2,2. Very reasonable, IMO.

I realize some people want him to have ice sword for NJP, but I think we should implement as few Takeda-esque NJPs as possible. Things like that water down the meta IMO, and Sub doesn't need another ridiculous overhead option. I'd prefer if he had a higher-damaging NJP that's more akin to Link's down-spike than a four-foot slash.

thoughts?

 

[Tanno]

I'm sorry that I forgot to say that I agree with Cryo's having a sword in NJP. I thought, "Shall Sub Zero have a sword or a hammer for NJP? If he had a hammer, he would be like Thor."

BTW, if they had made a new animation, it would be that the F112 would have first a punch, then a sword, and finally a hammer to send the opponent into air. As a Kendo athlete, I would say that the sword doesn't give the impact to send the opponent in air. IMO, the sword cuts in all sides. The Hammer should do the trick to send the opponent in air. It's just physics logic.

 

[Temp]

I'm sorry that I forgot to say that I agree with Cryo's having a sword in NJP. I thought, "Shall Sub Zero have a sword or a hammer for NJP? If he had a hammer, he would be like Thor."

BTW, if they had made a new animation, it would be that the F112 would have first a punch, then a sword, and finally a hammer to send the opponent into air. As a Kendo athlete, I would say that the sword doesn't give the impact to send the opponent in air. IMO, the sword cuts in all sides. The Hammer should do the trick to send the opponent in air. It's just physics logic.

The up-hammer would be cool, though the with the hammer slam already, It feels less like a Thor thing and more like a King Dedede thing. (EDIT: which is not bad, lol)

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Ice ball can be cancelled
@Gilbagz thinks he's good so maybe we should explore a bit more.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Ice ball can be cancelled
@Gilbagz thinks he's good so maybe we should explore a bit more.

I don't think he's garbage, but as a Sub-Zero specialist, I'm always hard pressed to pick him over Grandmaster. I can't think of one MU where Cryomancer and especially Unbreakable would be a better pick than the otherwise excellent Grandmaster. Even in Grandmaster's bad matchups. Cryo gets molly whopped in those matchups just as bad, if not worse because he loses the trapping ability of the corner. And believe me, Iv looked.

 

[Synesthesia Z]

I'm sorry that I forgot to say that I agree with Cryo's having a sword in NJP. I thought, "Shall Sub Zero have a sword or a hammer for NJP? If he had a hammer, he would be like Thor."

BTW, if they had made a new animation, it would be that the F112 would have first a punch, then a sword, and finally a hammer to send the opponent into air. As a Kendo athlete, I would say that the sword doesn't give the impact to send the opponent in air. IMO, the sword cuts in all sides. The Hammer should do the trick to send the opponent in air. It's just physics logic.

"physics logic" like not falling down when frozen,haha? And to give my 2 cents about SZ needing buffs is honestly only unbreakable comes to my mind, not having the impression cryomancer needs it so badly as the rest of the people here. Admittedly for the reason i never even think about SZ, as long as the release of the game never bothered about him, ever. Yet i voted on SZ on ed boon's poll just because i would love to see them buff unbreakable for it seems for me that's the only variation appealing to me. And something off topic; You guys think we'll get a KP3 or at least 1 more dlc char? I'm having little faith in it, thinking we'll only get a patch with character balances and that being IT for MKX. And you?

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Give Cryomancer SZ standing 22 from mk9 and everything will be ok

I don't think he's garbage, but as a Sub-Zero specialist, I'm always hard pressed to pick him over Grandmaster. I can't think of one MU where Cryomancer and especially Unbreakable would be a better pick than the otherwise excellent Grandmaster. Even in Grandmaster's bad matchups. Cryo gets molly whopped in those matchups just as bad, if not worse because he loses the trapping ability of the corner. And believe me, Iv looked.

Well in matchups where the clone is rendered useless. Maybe Ermac?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Well in matchups where the clone is rendered useless. Maybe Ermac?

Maybe, but I think it is worth it slumming it in the neutral because you can rape him in the corner. Cryo is basically a "I do everything you do, but worse" version of MOS Ermac. And of course not even close to Spectral or Mystic. I think the both get 6-4d by Spectral or maybe 7-3 by Mystic, and MOS is 5-5 vs Grandmaster and Cryomancer loses to MOS 6-4 imo of course.