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Discussion CrazyFinger's New and Improved Tier List (Now Completely In Order!)

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
Lasher has more than just "Oh look i'm jumping all over the place!" he has everything that makes Takeda a solid character, he has good damage, some characters can not handle DF1 like AT ALL and it is special cancelable into a full combo. You HAVE to respect the space that this character controls which is damn near the whole screen. There is literally no character in the whole game that has normals that can control the space that Lasher does. You talk about having to play the character's game, that's exactly what Lasher does to you, he forces you to play his near full screen footsies game that most of the cast can't answer.


Hellfire WOULD be in Tier 1 if his lack of good defense was made up for in a significant way. He's got the setplay yea but in some matchups, his armor being the way it is makes for some TERRIBLE times. He is on the very cusp of Tier 1 (he's pretty much the best character in Tier 2)

Ethereal could be Tier 1, i'll have to look at that.

Konjurer is NOT trash tier. Holy crap. Okay, ignore the SOMETIMES having whiffing issues on facehugger (they aren't extremely common and are only common in the places they should be, jumping and low profiling.) he has solid space control, some quite disgusting setplay and just really good buttons that Alien has. There is absolutely no way in hell that this character is Tier 4.

Smoke suffers from a lot of people just not playing the matchup right. They let B2 walk all over them from fullscreen when there's plenty of people that can answer it. Smoke bomb on block isn't blown up nearly as much as it should be. Don't get me wrong, Smoke is dumb and super good but I don't think he's QUITE among the best in the game.

Cyrax having good setplay but only okay neutral (yes it's only okay, it's not complete trash but we can't ignore the problems with it, I should know, Leatherface has the same problems but worse) makes him struggle in a good amount of matchups (Mileena, Smoke, Liu Kang) All in all, the character has potential and I am 100% behind the "cyrax isn't trash" train but Tier 2 is a bit optimistic.

Low Pokes into special, while cancerous as hell, isn't going to bring Hat Trick to Tier 2. At the end of the day, it's a gimmick on block. His oki is pretty good but in the neutral he doesn't have a ton of meterless tools to help him out like Tempest and Buzzsaw have. In the corner he certainly becomes scary after a knockdown but we can't ignore his problems.

Metallic has Tremor's solid tools and loops you back into needing to eat those tools with restand. That's most certainly on par with Flex and IA Quake imo. Also huge damage, like, unbelievably huge damage, for no meter.

Unbreakable doesn't have that many risks. Literally he has two. B2 and Slide. Everything else is safe, plus, or neutral on block. He can slow down the game and make people think twice on oki. He also has the only one bar armored launcher which means he has the best armored move in the game (that isn't an over-exaggeration, there's a reason NRS took them out of the game)

Warrior has dirt, but the only problem with Warrior (and it's a fucking big one) is that his dependence upon meter is possibly the most out of any character in this game. He is absolutely USELESS without meter and that wouldn't be so bad if he had an actually good way to build that meter. He's never close enough to actually get anything off of his plus frames. The only thing he has going for him in the neutral is good armor. Which is fine for the most part but that armor no longer launches, which is a huge deal considering he actually just lived and died off of counter poking with EX Flip and trying to get you in the loop off of that. I can take another look at him but he honestly just doesn't get to play MKX for more than half the match.

FINALLY! Sorcerer. Now I know I said bad defense was holding back Hellfire but here's the thing. Sorcerer has way more to make up for that than Hellfire does. Sorcerer forces you to not have breaker throughout the entire match. If he lands one hit on you, meterlessly he gets a free purple rune and just strips you of your meter entirely. Secondly, armor rune IS THE SINGLE BEST MOVE IN THE GAME. Full screen, pretty much only one character in the game has a consistent answer to it (full auto) in the corner GOOD FUCKING LUCK. It's worse than Crystaline being in your face. Some characters have literally 0 answers to it in the corner other than just guess 10 times in a row. You can only guess right so many times. You say Cyrax has the best setplay in the game, Sorcerer is right next to that. Not only that but outside of knockdown situations, Quan's defense is actually pretty good. Backdash is godlike, pokes are really solid, his ONLY problem is on knockdown. That's his literal only problem. Everywhere else he is air tight.
Konjurer - If one of his tools whiffs at random points, the character no matter how strong its potential is; can't be competitive. I was on the first to lab him, I have some sick set-ups but if they don't work as intended I can't merit him on a decent tier position.

Lasher - If I put him in tier two, I am absolutely respecting all his tools. I used to main him. Tier 2 is still godlike characters, Kang is there lol. His wake-ups are punishable on block, and if you can knock him out of the air or have auto footsie tools his power level drops. he's tier 2.

Sorceror - He is super good thats why he's in tier 2. You could argue tier 1 for sure, but his wake-up game especially in the corner is non-existant. Win more character.

Warrior - No character with a safe wake-up is tier 4, he has decent 50/50s and you can armor through projectiles and launch

Hat-trick - This was an outsider pick. I don't trust his frame data - at all. He has a safe launcher that he can choose to use off pokes or strings or not.

Hellfire - He has an 11-frame double armored low wake-up/reversal if you go for a meaty and a launching teleport on a read that your gonna mis-time your meaty and if you don't meaty he's up. Its definately not that bad of a wake-up game.

Unbreakable - is not as good as kang or a lot of characters in that tier, his parry is also punishable. He's good and can win games, so can other tier 3 characters.

Smoke - You need to play better smokes. Blowing up smoke bomb on block is the least of your worries and blowing up B2 is easier said than done and doesn't have to be used at max range.

I'll let RZA decide on whether metallic is as good as the other variations. I can't ever see it being picked in tournament over the other variations so something must be letting it down.
 
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Espio

Kokomo
I really like this listing, Dragon Fangs Goro and Kitana in general are in very sensible places.


I did however want to address Kuatan Warrior versus Tigrar Fury


Switch Lasher and Demo with Noxious and Nimble.

Goro is in the right spot, maybe move Tigrar up with DF as it's way better than KW.

Warrior Predator needs to be moved up to at least tier 3.
Tigrar Fury (possible tier 2) [Great frame data, solid projectiles, good character.]
]
Yes, I agree and to expound upon this, Kuatan Warrior is the only one of the three that I don't feel fills a specific notable niche. Dragon Fangs has the great armor, range, damage, plus frames and Tigrar Fury has the zoning/space control and versatility. I would move Tigrar up and/or move Kuatan down, but those two are not equals in terms of quality.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Cryomancer it's a nominee for tier 4 in my opinion. NRS took a simple to use character and turned it into a nerfed version of Himself. Now He's execution heavy, for less damage and more punishable than ever. Thanks for the 'Buffs' NRS. No Cryo player wanted these changes, but here We are.
he's not tier 4. Tier 4 is garbage fire levels of bad.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Konjurer - If one of his tools whiffs at random points, the character no matter how strong its potential is; can't be competitive. I was on the first to lab him, I have some sick set-ups but if they don't work as intended I can't merit him on a decent tier position.

Lasher - If I put him in tier two, I am absolutely respecting all his tools. I used to main him. Tier 2 is still godlike characters, Kang is there lol. His wake-ups are punishable on block, and if you can knock him out of the air or have auto footsie tools his power level drops. he's tier 2.

Sorceror - He is super good thats why he's in tier 2. You could argue tier 1 for sure, but his wake-up game especially in the corner is non-existant. Win more character.

Warrior - No character with a safe wake-up is tier 4, he has decent 50/50s and you can armor through projectiles and launch

Hat-trick - This was an outsider pick. I don't trust his frame data - at all. He has a safe launcher that he can choose to use off pokes or strings or not.
One tool whiffing at random points is something that nearly every character deals with in this game. are you saying every character in this game is not competitive?
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
One tool whiffing at random points is something that nearly every character deals with in this game. are you saying every character in this game is not competitive?
When I pick the variation specifically for that tool and if randomly whiffs. Yes its not competitive.

Cyraxs B2 randomly whiffs and has an abysmal hitbox; but it isn't the core of the character and I don't have to use it.

Facehugger is what the variation is built around. If Cyrax's nets/bombs randomly whiffed I wouldn't play him either.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
When I pick the variation specifically for that tool and if randomly whiffs. Yes its not competitive.

Cyraxs B2 randomly whiffs and has an abysmal hitbox; but it isn't the core of the character and I don't have to use it.

Facehugger is what the variation is built around. If Cyrax's nets/bombs randomly whiffed I wouldn't play him either.
You seem to forget that drone is the other half of the character. Hell i'd even say in the neutral it's more than half of the reason you pick the character. If you're using Egg in the neutral enough for it to be losing you games, you need to correct how you're playing the character.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Warrior - No character with a safe wake-up is tier 4, he has decent 50/50s and you can armor through projectiles and launch
I feel like I have to say that just because a wakeup is safe on block doesn't mean it's actually safe. Both Warrior and Venomous in tier 4 have safe on block wakeups that are blown up for a full combo by neutral or crossover jumping on knockdown. Provided they know the matchup, these armors are just as bait and punishable as any other on knockdown.

Also, @CrazyFingers I'd like to hear your take on pretty much all of tier 4. I'm not disputing any of it, I just want to know your reasoning behind who is the worst of the worst.
 

dubson

Noob
Reason Lasher is so high is, who does he lose to? Like honestly, who are his terrible matchups? He does quite well against a lot of the cast and imo he doesnt out right lose to any character in the game.
I think Grandmaster Sub and Smoke both beat him pretty strong and they should both be in the highest tier imo. Along with probably Piercing

IMO Lasher struggles against characters with strong projectile game, a strong rushdown game and/or teleports... I think he is good, but not the highest possible tier. Ronin may be more viable against the top tier characters over Lasher
 
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CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Wow, lightning fast response. I wasn't even done with my post.

Anyway, I very much disagree. Set up a klone and sit back and freeze. Lasher can do nothing.
Lasher has his DF1 normal that ignores klone, Lasher does not give single fuck about klone.
 

dubson

Noob
Lasher has his DF1 normal that ignores klone, Lasher does not give single fuck about klone.
Actually all Sub has to do is set up the klone and back out of the range of the whip. It's pretty easy unless Sub is in the corner. And Sub can slide my whip or kunai on reaction/psychic.

And if Sub gets Lasher in the corner, it's a wrap.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Actually all Sub has to do is set up the klone and back out of the range of the whip. It's pretty easy unless Sub is in the corner. And Sub can slide my whip or kunai on reaction/psychic.

And if Sub gets Lasher in the corner, it's a wrap.
if you are making a sub zero stand that far away from his klone, you are winning the matchup. By the time it takes him to make the klone then walk far enough back to not be in range of the whip, he will either have already been hit by the whip or had a kunai thrown at the klone and then the klone is gone.
 

dubson

Noob
if you are making a sub zero stand that far away from his klone, you are winning the matchup. By the time it takes him to make the klone then walk far enough back to not be in range of the whip, he will either have already been hit by the whip or had a kunai thrown at the klone and then the klone is gone.
nah dude, not at all. that doesn't make sense in any way.

plus he can cancel into klone during pressure, his backdash is beast mode and the fact that the klone absorbs the kunai is another strong point for grandmaster
 
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CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
I feel like I have to say that just because a wakeup is safe on block doesn't mean it's actually safe. Both Warrior and Venomous in tier 4 have safe on block wakeups that are blown up for a full combo by neutral or crossover jumping on knockdown. Provided they know the matchup, these armors are just as bait and punishable as any other on knockdown.

Also, @CrazyFingers I'd like to hear your take on pretty much all of tier 4. I'm not disputing any of it, I just want to know your reasoning behind who is the worst of the worst.
I will preface this by saying, Inferno and Stunt Double could be higher (Inferno has a good base toolset and Stunt Double isn't complete trash possibly) I'll go character by character for ya.

Lackey
So what can I say about Lackey. He's got meh armor. He has no great plus frames. Sure he has good buttons and good damage but he has so many anti-synergistic things in his toolset it's baffling. He is clearly supposed to be up close and personal, yet his command grab throws the opponent full screen. Basically what this comes down to is that, Lackey doesn't have the correct tools to be playing this game. He has a great basic toolset that has potential to be a real formidable force in this game but his dirt just isn't strong enough to compete which causes him to suffer in a good amount of matchups.

Warrior
See my explanation earlier in this thread. Also, just because you have a safe wakeup doesn't mean you aren't trash. That notion is not logical.

Marksman/Outlaw
Outlaw is a garbage fire. Marksman is a slightly less hot garbage fire. They have gaps everywhere. One of them is unsafe as hell, the other one relies too much upon stamina to make himself safe which in turn makes him unsafe for a large amount of the match. Marksman's "zoning" is trash, Outlaw gets zoned out absurdly easily. The character has one okay mid and okay damage. His mixups are laughable (granted, i guarantee you everyone on of you has been hit by the new slow overhead at least 10 times if you've played against the character enough) They just don't have any good or even decent tools to be competing in the game.

Heavy Weapons
Oh boy. The odd one out of the Jax variations. He got hit, absurdly hard by the stamina changes. He lost his easy midscreen hitconfirms and is now having to be reliant on either not run canceling for his hitconfirms or having to link into S3 which is a link that is so tight it makes coals into diamonds. And his "pressure" is the worst of the three variations. Granted he can mix you and cancel pokes into specials and make you respect his stuff with staggers but like...he has terrible armor, he doesn't have the purple wave to help with his mind games. He gets zoned out. Any bad matchup that the other two have is increased by a ton on Heavy Weapons. The character is just bad.

Pretty Lady
The character that I am definitely most qualified to talk about in Tier 4. Pretty Lady is a zoner with some pretty bad projectiles. Every saw has terrible recovery frames on whiff so you jump one saw and you get in almost for free. His up close game is pretty bad considering his lack of mids and his lack of good follow up to his frame trap with EX Up saw. He has terrible whiffing issues on almost half the cast. So basically what you have is a zoner who can't zone as well as the other zoners in the game and doesnt have an up close game to compensate for it. It's just a mess.

Venomous
Venomous is weird. This is a chip/tick damage character...who's chip damage is unsafe. Venomous has some good armor and some good damage sure, however, the issues that plague d'vorah are all there and Venomous has little to nothing to make up for that. It's basically variationless d'vorah with a little more damage and a decent armored move. Very lack luster.

Tarkatan
This character got gutted. When patch day came, I figured he might be like mid tier afterwards but nope, this character is just a flaming pile now. He is completely unsafe on everything he does (EVERYTHING) He just has way too much risk with very little reward. He's just a bad design with TERRIBLE frame data now. Poor Baraka.

Kenjutsu
This one won't take much to explain. His push is bad. His armor is bad. He's got 50/50's but one half is non-hitconfirmable and unsafe and the other one is harder to hit confirm and is unsafe if not hitconfirmed. He's got the same whiff recovery problems the other two have but not the same things to make up for it *shrug*
 

Yer_Da

I don't sell Avon.
I think Drunken Master belongs in tier four, he's not even close to being relevant in this patch, there's zero reason to pick him when the other two exist.

As for Dragon Breath and Bartitsu, I fully agree with tier two but I'd note that Dragon Breath would be upper level but Bartitsu would be lower level of that tier.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
This list is one the most accurate posted on TYM. My only knock is that it shows there should be more than 4 tiers. At least 5, possibly 6, but definitely 5.

Displacer, Pyro, Piercing, and Boneshaper just can't be in the same tier as Covert Ops, Master of Souls, and Tempest. There's a clear gap there. Same as Ronin and Konjurer mixed with Balanced and Hat Trick. There's a tier missing somewhere to better separate these chars.

All in all solid list when considering the volume.
 
As a Sorcerer main since forever I'd drop him down to tier 2, but I'm no match up expert. His variation buffs and 50/50s are ridiculously good, but his problem is his fundamentals. Once he gets in, his offense requires constant meter when he doesn't build meter very well. His zoning is slow, also requires heavy meter usage, can be full combo punished from full screen on a poor read, and gets beat by tons of characters with better zoning than him who usually also have better offensive pressure as well like Dvorah, Mileena, Kitana, Shinnok, Reptile, HQT Predator, Tremor, and Liu Kang.

His long ranged strings can't be hit confirmed like other characters so even they cost meter to use unless on an obvious whiff punish, his d1 only guarantees another d1, a d3 or b324 which is unsafe, his armor gets broken easily by many characters, many of whom also don't have to worry too much about his armored zoning. And the fact that EX sky drop is so bad wouldn't be so detrimental if he wasn't as heavy as he is on his meter dependency. He's a very good character but he just gets beat too bad fundamentally by a large portion of the roster for him to be in tier 1 imo.
 
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ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
Definitely one of the best tier lists of this version of the game, yes.

@CrazyFingers You plan ordering each tier in some way? Would solve some of the disagreements that appeared in this thread. For example, Mileena probably should be quite high in Tier 2.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
NPO within a tier
Fucking Dank:
Jason Unstoppable
Sonya Demo
Sonya Special Forces
Mileena Ethereal
Mileena Piercing
Takeda Lasher
Predator HQT
Shinnok Boneshaper
Liu Kang Dragons Fire
Ermac Mystic
Raiden Displacer
Quan Chi Summoner
Triborg Smoke
Triborg Sektor

Very Dank:
Jason Relentless
Kenshi Possessed
Kitana Royal Storm
Scorpion Hellfire
Sub-Zero Grandmaster
Mileena Ravenous
Takeda Shirai Ryu
Cassie Hollywood
Jacqui Full Auto
Jacqui Shotgun
Kung Jin Shaolin
Tanya Pyromancer
Shinnok Imposter
Kano Cutthroat
Liu Kang Flame Fist
Ermac Spectral
Reptile Nimble
Reptile Deceptive
Quan Chi Sorcerer
Tremor Crystalline
Tremor Aftershock

Somewhat Dank:
Alien Acidic
Alien Konjurer
Jason Slasher
Kung Lao Tempest
Kung Lao Buzzsaw
Sonya Covert Ops
Kitana Assassin
Kitana Mournful
Scorpion Ninjutsu
Sub-Zero Unbreakable
Takeda Ronin
Cassie Brawler
Kung Jin Bojutsu
Kung Jin Ancestral
Tanya Naginata
Tanya Kobu
BRC Dragons Breath
Leatherface Killer
Leatherface Butcher
Shinnok Necromancer
Kano Commando
Liu Kang Dualist
Ermac MOS
Kotal Sun God
Reptile Noxious
F/T Ruthless
D'Vorah Swarm Queen
Goro Dragon Fangs
Goro Tigrar Fury

Not Dank:
Jax Wrestler
Sub-Zero Cryomancer
Cassie Spec Ops
BRC Bartitsu
Predator Hunter
Kano Cybernetic
Johnny Cage A-List
Kotal War God
F/T Vicious
D'Vorah Brood Mother
Raiden Thunder God
Triborg Cyber Sub-Zero

Very not Dank:
Kung Lao Hat Trick
Jax Heavy Weapons
Jax Pumped Up
Kenshi Balanced
Leatherface Pretty Lady
Predator Warrior
Cage Fisticuffs
Cage Stunt Double
Erron Black Gunslinger
Kotal Blood God
Quan Chi Warlock
D'Vorah Venomous
Tremor Metallic
Triborg Cyrax

Really no trace of any Dank:
Alien Tarkatan
Kenshi Kenjutsu
Jacqui High Tech
Erron Black Marksman
Raiden MOS
Goro KW

Lol fuck off:
Scorpion Inferno
BRC Drunken Master
Erron Black Outlaw
F/T Lackey

Couple things people may have issues with:
- added lol fuck off tier because I feel that some of the characters belong there. These characters don't even have a defined playstyle or strategy imo.

- Grandmaster and Possessed are where they are because I feel they have more losing matchups (Grandmaster) and less winning (Possessed) than the characters they would be potentially placed with in fucking dank tier.

-Cryomancer is where he is due to a poor neutral and footsie game, bad frames on everything, unsafe offense, and meh damage. His powerful mixups and knockdowns can be very overwhelming if he manages to get the momentum, keeping him from being lower.
Hell I'll just put mine from the other thread here so I don't have to keep posing adjustments I'd make lol
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
I agree, I would put 5 tiers. Sorcerer just can't be tier 1. As @Superman Rz said it's like another version of GM.

Also I'll admit I'm not the biggest Lasher player, he's probably the least played of all my characters, but I also don't see him being tier 1. He can get mopped by pressure characters and especially characters that seem to be like "jack of all trades". Little bit of pressure but can also keep him at bay. He has awful armor which is a high, slow, and negative. Midscreen he's also meter dependent.

Again though, I'm no Takeda expert. Maybe @KHTC Takgillo could chime in