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Discussion CrazyFinger's New and Improved Tier List (Now Completely In Order!)

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
I feel like KL Hat Trick is not even with JC A-list nor even ST. I believe that there are bunch of other characters in that list that have better overall tools to what HT has to give.
 

tafka Djinn

One for three off the roof
His pressure isn't THAT much weaker. Seriously how much did he rely on his cancels for plus frames? He has enough stamina to sustain the pressure he did before. EX Vicinity Blast has given him something for opponents to respect so his staggers have become much better and his meterbuild is ABSURD. Just look at a TG's meter when he's fighting. Seriously. You'll be disgusted. And his setplay is top 10 easy. Character is super underrated right now.
I knew his setplay was good, but I guess I'll hold this information and reflect then. Cheers for giving me something to go over.



Also, I mained Terumi in BBCP, nobody can disgust me with meterbuild in this game.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
personally think this is the most accurate tier list i've seen on tym about any video game...
that said is lasher really that good. I've only fought one good lasher and i lost badly but i don't think he's that high up there cus i think he still losses badly in a decent amount of match ups.
also ferra/torr vicious is not as good as ruthless. in fact he's not as good as anyone in that tier other than ancestral which brings me to my third point
after talking about it with so many people and watching, playing with and playing against ancestral intensively, i STILL don't think he's as good as people keep telling. definitely shouldn't be that high up either. on paper his tools are nasty and yeah they're not that hard to bring out and they help a lot in so many match ups but as long as there's a timer on freeze arrow i'll never think he's that good.

with how much you up play leather face i'm surprised you have him so low
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
personally think this is the most accurate tier list i've seen on tym about any video game...
that said is lasher really that good. I've only fought one good lasher and i lost badly but i don't think he's that high up there cus i think he still losses badly in a decent amount of match ups.
also ferra/torr vicious is not as good as ruthless. in fact he's not as good as anyone in that tier other than ancestral which brings me to my third point
after talking about it with so many people and watching, playing with and playing against ancestral intensively, i STILL don't think he's as good as people keep telling. definitely shouldn't be that high up either. on paper his tools are nasty and yeah they're not that hard to bring out and they help a lot in so many match ups but as long as there's a timer on freeze arrow i'll never think he's that good.

with how much you up play leather face i'm surprised you have him so low
I came to the realization that he's just not very good. He can catch you off guard and just kill you dead but he's got a lot of flaws that you have to acknowledge.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
personally think this is the most accurate tier list i've seen on tym about any video game...
that said is lasher really that good. I've only fought one good lasher and i lost badly but i don't think he's that high up there cus i think he still losses badly in a decent amount of match ups.
also ferra/torr vicious is not as good as ruthless. in fact he's not as good as anyone in that tier other than ancestral which brings me to my third point
after talking about it with so many people and watching, playing with and playing against ancestral intensively, i STILL don't think he's as good as people keep telling. definitely shouldn't be that high up either. on paper his tools are nasty and yeah they're not that hard to bring out and they help a lot in so many match ups but as long as there's a timer on freeze arrow i'll never think he's that good.

with how much you up play leather face i'm surprised you have him so low
Also on the topic of Lasher, who are his bad matchups exactly? I can't think of many that give him a hugely terrible time and there are some characters that just cannot handle this character. On the topic of vicious, i know he's not as good as Ruthless, but he's certainly not in the tier below that. Characters in tier lists aren't EXACTLY as strong as everyone else in that tier. There's varying degrees. Finally, why does the timer on freeze arrow matter that much? It's not like he's going to want to hang onto it for a ton of time. I have a hard time believing that the freeze arrow having a timer is holding him back THAT much, especially with the buffs to his other arrows. He's not as reliant on freeze arrow like he was pre patch, he can do other things now.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
This is one of the best lists I've seen. So great job.

Adjustments I'd make:

Unbreakable tier 3 [It's a decent character, but so are quite a lot of tier 3; too many risks that are full combo punishable.]

Metallic tier 3 [Tremor without IA quakes or armor just isn't in the same league, its good but not tier 2]

Warrior tier 3 [This character is not trash at all. No character with a safe special that can safe armor after is trash.]

Sorceror tier 2 [He's super strong no doubt, but he isn't tier 1. Mainly due to his defense on knockdown.]

Demolition tier 1/2 [Shes super good, like the rest of tier 2. It's hard to judge a character when only Scar represents her at the highest level and everyone else falls short even before the nerfs; she has a one dimensional play style and can struggle without exceptional reload timings and spacing. For me tier 2.]

Lasher tier 2 [Jumping around spamming whips is fun until a character has the tools to stop it and then hes quite bland, A tier 1 character doesn't care too much about the opponents tools.]

Hellfire tier 1 [One of the few characters that can slow the pace of the game down, can't be zoned, wins in the air for full combo. Excellent cancel pressure and throw game, with a super solid d4 and a counterpoke check (aura) you're playing his game.]

Ethereal Tier 1 [Same as hellfire, controls the game. Its her mistakes that will make her lose and the opponents needs to take risks to open her up, which are usually in her favour, don't jump!]

Stunt double tier 3 [I hate what NRS did to cage but SD is ok. He has a dirty counterpoke game with clones up and fullscreen mid projectiles and armored wake-ups are good.]

Konjurer Tier 4 [If the facehugger didn't whiff on low profiles or jumps, this would be a decent character, no
character can be competitively viable when its tools don't work due to hitbox issues, randomness puts this character in the trash.]

Tigrar Fury (possible tier 2) [Great frame data, solid projectiles, good character.]

Cyrax Tier 2 [With tri-borgs toolset {backdash,111,F13,throw,run speed,anti-airs} and the threat of EX-SAW in the neutral he can cause some serious damage to the opponent. Devastating set-ups and THE best corner game in the current meta; you best have that breaker ready.]

Smoke Tier 1 [As with all tier 1 characters, you play his game. On knockdown you have to respect his wake-up game and he has a nice little vortex. B2 is one of THE best whiffs punishers/mids and add in his teleport cancel in the air (which can launch) and the cheap mix with a smoke screen. Hobart is the king of mix.]

Ronin Tier 1/2 [Great projectile - Excellent mid pressure - Safe air dash - Cancels - Decent mix. His wake-up game is what puts him out of tier 1 but that debatable, I'm on the fence.]

Hat trick tier 2 [Low pokes into specials, are cancer and this character embraces it with a passion. Ex hat-toss is underrated and the pressure he can create using it to stay plus is a strong mind game that the opponent has to respect. Great wake-up game and some decent set-ups.]
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
I feel like KL Hat Trick is not even with JC A-list nor even ST. I believe that there are bunch of other characters in that list that have better overall tools to what HT has to give.
Hat Trick is at a pretty low point in that tier, i haven't put it in order but i probably will at some point. I feel like we're underrating him a bit. He's got pretty good Oki but he certainly has a struggle ahead of him.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
Also on the topic of Lasher, who are his bad matchups exactly? I can't think of many that give him a hugely terrible time and there are some characters that just cannot handle this character. On the topic of vicious, i know he's not as good as Ruthless, but he's certainly not in the tier below that. Characters in tier lists aren't EXACTLY as strong as everyone else in that tier. There's varying degrees. Finally, why does the timer on freeze arrow matter that much? It's not like he's going to want to hang onto it for a ton of time. I have a hard time believing that the freeze arrow having a timer is holding him back THAT much, especially with the buffs to his other arrows. He's not as reliant on freeze arrow like he was pre patch, he can do other things now.
i personally think lasher gets destroyed by predator like 7-3. i also think he looses to kitana, hollywood, tanya yeah there's a decent amount of people i think beat him and with everyone one else in tier 1 i don't think they loose more than 2/3 match ups.
with freeze arrow i don't want to get into it too much (again lol) but it's the hole thing of in a game with so many 50/50's if the man doesn't have freeze arrow on deck you can just do unsafe shit for days. Even with the stuff he can do that makes him nasty on paper. he's the only zoner who's zoning damn near gets destroyed by teleport characters cus if i just teleport what's he gonna punish me with... 15%? or against all the characters with fullscreen advancing armor than you need to duck and punish or with something like raiden's babalay, what's he gonna punish with? 15%? it's just when he doesn't have freeze arrow on deck you can play extremely unsafe with a lot less risk and that sucks a lot.
 

errormacro7

Official Sonya simp
This is the most accurate tier list.
;)

Lasher should be perhaps dropped a tier. He is good but not the absolute best in MKX. Demolition should be dropped a tier or two. The grenade nerfs really hurt her and she has no longer access to the corner reloading combos that was possible prepatch. I don't see Ninjutsu and Hellfire being placed together too. I mean Ninjutsu is good but should be dropped below Hellfire. Perhaps in a tier 1.5 or smth. Otherwise, this tier list is very accurate.
Not true.
 

Alright RyRy

Florida Kombat
Switch Lasher and Demo with Noxious and Nimble.

Goro is in the right spot, maybe move Tigrar up with DF as it's way better than KW.

Warrior Predator needs to be moved up to at least tier 3.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
This is one of the best lists I've seen. So great job.

Adjustments I'd make:

Unbreakable tier 3 [It's a decent character, but so are quite a lot of tier 3; too many risks that are full combo punishable.]

Metallic tier 3 [Tremor without IA quakes or armor just isn't in the same league, its good but not tier 2]

Warrior tier 3 [This character is not trash at all. No character with a safe special that can safe armor after is trash.]

Sorceror tier 2 [He's super strong no doubt, but he isn't tier 1. Mainly due to his defense on knockdown.]

Demolition tier 1/2 [Shes super good, like the rest of tier 2. It's hard to judge a character when only Scar represents her at the highest level and everyone else falls short even before the nerfs; she has a one dimensional play style and can struggle without exceptional reload timings and spacing. For me tier 2.]

Lasher tier 2 [Jumping around spamming whips is fun until a character has the tools to stop it and then hes quite bland, A tier 1 character doesn't care too much about the opponents tools.]

Hellfire tier 1 [One of the few characters that can slow the pace of the game down, can't be zoned, wins in the air for full combo. Excellent cancel pressure and throw game, with a super solid d4 and a counterpoke check (aura) you're playing his game.]

Ethereal Tier 1 [Same as hellfire, controls the game. Its her mistakes that will make her lose and the opponents needs to take risks to open her up, which are usually in her favour, don't jump!]

Stunt double tier 3 [I hate what NRS did to cage but SD is ok. He has a dirty counterpoke game with clones up and fullscreen mid projectiles and armored wake-ups are good.]

Konjurer Tier 4 [If the facehugger didn't whiff on low profiles or jumps, this would be a decent character, no
character can be competitively viable when its tools don't work due to hitbox issues, randomness puts this character in the trash.]

Tigrar Fury (possible tier 2) [Great frame data, solid projectiles, good character.]

Cyrax Tier 2 [With tri-borgs toolset {backdash,111,F13,throw,run speed,anti-airs} and the threat of EX-SAW in the neutral he can cause some serious damage to the opponent. Devastating set-ups and THE best corner game in the current meta; you best have that breaker ready.]

Smoke Tier 1 [As with all tier 1 characters, you play his game. On knockdown you have to respect his wake-up game and he has a nice little vortex. Add in his teleport cancel in the air (which can launch) and the cheap mix with a smoke screen. Hobart is the king of mix.]

Ronin Tier 1/2 [Great projectile - Excellent mid pressure - Safe air dash - Cancels - Decent mix. His wake-up game is what puts him out of tier 1 but that debatable, I'm on the fence.]

Hat trick tier 2 [Low pokes into specials, are cancer and this character embraces it with a passion. Ex hat-toss is underrated and the pressure he can create using it to stay plus is a strong mind game that the opponent has to respect. Great wake-up game and some decent set-ups.]
Lasher has more than just "Oh look i'm jumping all over the place!" he has everything that makes Takeda a solid character, he has good damage, some characters can not handle DF1 like AT ALL and it is special cancelable into a full combo. You HAVE to respect the space that this character controls which is damn near the whole screen. There is literally no character in the whole game that has normals that can control the space that Lasher does. You talk about having to play the character's game, that's exactly what Lasher does to you, he forces you to play his near full screen footsies game that most of the cast can't answer.


Hellfire WOULD be in Tier 1 if his lack of good defense was made up for in a significant way. He's got the setplay yea but in some matchups, his armor being the way it is makes for some TERRIBLE times. He is on the very cusp of Tier 1 (he's pretty much the best character in Tier 2)

Ethereal could be Tier 1, i'll have to look at that.

Konjurer is NOT trash tier. Holy crap. Okay, ignore the SOMETIMES having whiffing issues on facehugger (they aren't extremely common and are only common in the places they should be, jumping and low profiling.) he has solid space control, some quite disgusting setplay and just really good buttons that Alien has. There is absolutely no way in hell that this character is Tier 4.

Smoke suffers from a lot of people just not playing the matchup right. They let B2 walk all over them from fullscreen when there's plenty of people that can answer it. Smoke bomb on block isn't blown up nearly as much as it should be. Don't get me wrong, Smoke is dumb and super good but I don't think he's QUITE among the best in the game.

Cyrax having good setplay but only okay neutral (yes it's only okay, it's not complete trash but we can't ignore the problems with it, I should know, Leatherface has the same problems but worse) makes him struggle in a good amount of matchups (Mileena, Smoke, Liu Kang) All in all, the character has potential and I am 100% behind the "cyrax isn't trash" train but Tier 2 is a bit optimistic.

Low Pokes into special, while cancerous as hell, isn't going to bring Hat Trick to Tier 2. At the end of the day, it's a gimmick on block. His oki is pretty good but in the neutral he doesn't have a ton of meterless tools to help him out like Tempest and Buzzsaw have. In the corner he certainly becomes scary after a knockdown but we can't ignore his problems.

Metallic has Tremor's solid tools and loops you back into needing to eat those tools with restand. That's most certainly on par with Flex and IA Quake imo. Also huge damage, like, unbelievably huge damage, for no meter.

Unbreakable doesn't have that many risks. Literally he has two. B2 and Slide. Everything else is safe, plus, or neutral on block. He can slow down the game and make people think twice on oki. He also has the only one bar armored launcher which means he has the best armored move in the game (that isn't an over-exaggeration, there's a reason NRS took them out of the game)

Warrior has dirt, but the only problem with Warrior (and it's a fucking big one) is that his dependence upon meter is possibly the most out of any character in this game. He is absolutely USELESS without meter and that wouldn't be so bad if he had an actually good way to build that meter. He's never close enough to actually get anything off of his plus frames. The only thing he has going for him in the neutral is good armor. Which is fine for the most part but that armor no longer launches, which is a huge deal considering he actually just lived and died off of counter poking with EX Flip and trying to get you in the loop off of that. I can take another look at him but he honestly just doesn't get to play MKX for more than half the match.

FINALLY! Sorcerer. Now I know I said bad defense was holding back Hellfire but here's the thing. Sorcerer has way more to make up for that than Hellfire does. Sorcerer forces you to not have breaker throughout the entire match. If he lands one hit on you, meterlessly he gets a free purple rune and just strips you of your meter entirely. Secondly, armor rune IS THE SINGLE BEST MOVE IN THE GAME. Full screen, pretty much only one character in the game has a consistent answer to it (full auto) in the corner GOOD FUCKING LUCK. It's worse than Crystaline being in your face. Some characters have literally 0 answers to it in the corner other than just guess 10 times in a row. You can only guess right so many times. You say Cyrax has the best setplay in the game, Sorcerer is right next to that. Not only that but outside of knockdown situations, Quan's defense is actually pretty good. Backdash is godlike, pokes are really solid, his ONLY problem is on knockdown. That's his literal only problem. Everywhere else he is air tight.
 
This is the most accurate tier list.
;)



Not true.
if u r talking about the corner combos, well Im talking about a damage nerf. Maybe I didnt word it properly, but what I was trying to say was that the corner reloading combos possesses higher dmg prepatch which isnt possible now. U gonna have to settle for lower dmg.
 
This is one of the best lists I've seen. So great job.

Adjustments I'd make:

Unbreakable tier 3 [It's a decent character, but so are quite a lot of tier 3; too many risks that are full combo punishable.]

Metallic tier 3 [Tremor without IA quakes or armor just isn't in the same league, its good but not tier 2]

Warrior tier 3 [This character is not trash at all. No character with a safe special that can safe armor after is trash.]

Sorceror tier 2 [He's super strong no doubt, but he isn't tier 1. Mainly due to his defense on knockdown.]

Demolition tier 1/2 [Shes super good, like the rest of tier 2. It's hard to judge a character when only Scar represents her at the highest level and everyone else falls short even before the nerfs; she has a one dimensional play style and can struggle without exceptional reload timings and spacing. For me tier 2.]

Lasher tier 2 [Jumping around spamming whips is fun until a character has the tools to stop it and then hes quite bland, A tier 1 character doesn't care too much about the opponents tools.]

Hellfire tier 1 [One of the few characters that can slow the pace of the game down, can't be zoned, wins in the air for full combo. Excellent cancel pressure and throw game, with a super solid d4 and a counterpoke check (aura) you're playing his game.]

Ethereal Tier 1 [Same as hellfire, controls the game. Its her mistakes that will make her lose and the opponents needs to take risks to open her up, which are usually in her favour, don't jump!]

Stunt double tier 3 [I hate what NRS did to cage but SD is ok. He has a dirty counterpoke game with clones up and fullscreen mid projectiles and armored wake-ups are good.]

Konjurer Tier 4 [If the facehugger didn't whiff on low profiles or jumps, this would be a decent character, no
character can be competitively viable when its tools don't work due to hitbox issues, randomness puts this character in the trash.]

Tigrar Fury (possible tier 2) [Great frame data, solid projectiles, good character.]

Cyrax Tier 2 [With tri-borgs toolset {backdash,111,F13,throw,run speed,anti-airs} and the threat of EX-SAW in the neutral he can cause some serious damage to the opponent. Devastating set-ups and THE best corner game in the current meta; you best have that breaker ready.]

Smoke Tier 1 [As with all tier 1 characters, you play his game. On knockdown you have to respect his wake-up game and he has a nice little vortex. B2 is one of THE best whiffs punishers/mids and add in his teleport cancel in the air (which can launch) and the cheap mix with a smoke screen. Hobart is the king of mix.]

Ronin Tier 1/2 [Great projectile - Excellent mid pressure - Safe air dash - Cancels - Decent mix. His wake-up game is what puts him out of tier 1 but that debatable, I'm on the fence.]

Hat trick tier 2 [Low pokes into specials, are cancer and this character embraces it with a passion. Ex hat-toss is underrated and the pressure he can create using it to stay plus is a strong mind game that the opponent has to respect. Great wake-up game and some decent set-ups.]
@hayatei would disagree
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Imo none of Bo's variations are good enough to be in the same tier as Grandmaster or especially Dragon's Fire.
really? not "especially drunken master"? Also, remember that just because two characters are in the same tier doesn't mean they are both exactly as strong as the other. Bo is probably on the low/mid end of tier 2 while GM is definitely on the upper end.
 
Cryomancer it's a nominee for tier 4 in my opinion. NRS took a simple to use character and turned it into a nerfed version of Himself. Now He's execution heavy, for less damage and more punishable than ever. Thanks for the 'Buffs' NRS. No Cryo player wanted these changes, but here We are.