Concerns about "fixed" variations

[Sablicious]

Although still in flux, Boon touched on fixing / locking three variations for "competitive" / tournament play -- on account of *shudders* "balance".

On face value, this seems fine -- E-sports kind of demands some balance (...lest proe$ show their schmo stripes, and all gravitate to the same, few, "broken" characters). However, what has been brought to my attention, is the real likelihood that enforcing preset variations on players, may have the very effect mentioned: Favouritism for the preset variation that comes with the most useful tools. Compare: If the chars. came with their logical, base move-sets (Subzero: freeze, slide; Scorpion: spear, teleport etc.), but players were given full freedom from there to customise the combatant. Operating on the presumption that the special moves should all be balanced in their own right, whatever combination one chooses, should, therefore, not break the game's balance overall.

It seems to me that giving players a nice template for customisation with one hand, then effectively taking it away with the other, isn't giving them anything at all. Moreover, if players are incentivsed to agminate around the "better" variation (especially in competitive settings), you will invariably undermine the entire point of having customisation in the first place -- i.e., to lend diversity and freshness to each battle.

IMO, Boon would be better of leaving the special move customisation (not the "augments" -- they can remain barred from tournament play) open, and see how it works for the first couple of months. If serious balance issues arise, they can patch in some kind of "tourney preset" version of characters for the stage players (and online Rank, for what it's worth) to use.

Frankly, "Variations" weren't that loved in MKX -- one was good; one was a novelty; the last was useless.... conspiring to make it feel like the roster size suffered for an ill-thought-out gimmick -- and to limit this system's versatility in the new game, sets it up to fail even harder than the first time around.

 

[thesacrifist]

agminate
or ag·mi·nat·ed
[ag-muh-nit, -neyt or ag-muh-ney-tid]

adjective
aggregated together.

On that note, I disagree with you. For me personally the reason why the variation system was a hit and miss depending on the character in MKX was purely the characters design. Seems like they are "toning down" the variation system a bit, and preserving the base fantasy of the character better in MK11 so you avoid having several variations you simply find uninteresting due to being incongruent with how you expect the character to play. TLDR; it all depends on how good the design is on the special moves and characters, the system lends itself well to be a Great Success

 

[Law Hero]

I think it'd be nice if you could set your custom variation at the select screen. Like, after clicking a character, a box appears with your three variation move slots, and you pick and choose them right there. That way it could be done quickly before each match.

That being said, I still don't know how people would take to that in tournament play. For me, I'd like to see a way for tournament players to use a custom variation instead of one of NRS's presets.

 

[pure.Wasted]

I was hoping it would work this way. It would be pretty damn cool if at the start of every match, you had to play it safe until you could figure out exactly which abilities your opponent has access to. Like you're actually meeting an enemy for the first time.

 

[SaSSolino]

I'd like to see custom variations in competitive too.

Adding/removing slots requirements would also be a new balancing tool, while having competitive variations and custom moves separate would mean having to balance them together.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I agree with Sablicious. Injustice 2's custom special moves were fun to use, but keeping them grouped with gear stats ruined it. MK11 is looking like they might solve the problem of both games at once yet are also pushing it a step back.

The special moves should ideally be balanced to interact as well as possible in as many combinations as you can test across the whole game. Obviously as best they can; people will always find stuff.

Isn't that the whole point of doing this?

 

[NothingPersonal]

Maximilian says the devs told him they would make 3 variotions of their choice for competitive play. I strongly disagree with this. They can make two if they want to and let one slot for the player to customize. The community will then figure out on its own which one is better for competitive play. This needs to be petitioned before the game is out, or after it's out to be patched out. It's one of the most interesting thing for competitve play and NRS is about to flush it.

 

[SaSSolino]

Maximilian says the devs told him they would make 3 variotions of their choice for competitive play. I strongly disagree with this. They can make two if they want to and let one slot for the player to customize. The community will then figure out on its own which one is better for competitive play. This needs to be petitioned before the game is out, or after it's out to be patched out. It's one of the most interesting thing for competitve play and NRS is about to flush it.

Actually I remember Ed Boon saying in an interview that they are still thinking about it, but he personally was leaning towards the 3 fixed variations. This is the best time to speak up!

EDIT: I've seen Ed Boon's interview with Agry Joe just now and there he seems more final on the 3 variations. Let's hope they change their minds.

 

[Kroaken]

Yeah, it really feels like they are about to make a big mistake and, worse yet, an easily forseeable one. If they're preset, they're just poorly displayed mkx variations. Tweak the moves as needed, but make the slots fillable at character select.

 

[MrArcher15]

I don’t understand how anybody would want custom variations to be in competitive play. There are so many reasons why it just wouldn’t work. For one it’d be hell to balance, working with 3 variations is much easier for the devs. Think about it, if someone figures out a broken ass combination it’s gonna be much harder to patch than a standard variation. Furthermore I can’t imagine how stressful it’d be for competitors. It’s one thing to have to learn all the moves a character has at its disposal but imagine now having to be aware all of the possible combinations?

 

[Eji1700]

The absolute balance nightmare it poses is a very legit reason to can such an idea. I'd like to see them give it a shot but I wouldn't be surprised if it just winds up with the exact same issues the OP is complaining about (everyone runs one character with the same set because it's too good).

Hell as long as theres a casual mode that lets you do whatever you want without gear stats, if it turns out it's better that way the community can use that mode instead, and once it shows merit they can port it back into "comp" mode.

 

[NothingPersonal]

The absolute balance nightmare it poses is a very legit reason to can such an idea. I'd like to see them give it a shot but I wouldn't be surprised if it just winds up with the exact same issues the OP is complaining about (everyone runs one character with the same set because it's too good).

Hell as long as theres a casual mode that lets you do whatever you want without gear stats, if it turns out it's better that way the community can use that mode instead, and once it shows merit they can port it back into "comp" mode.

So what's the difference between running one set of custom moves and one preset variation because they are too good? There's nothing to lose here. They can make two variations of their choice and let one for customization. After the game si aout they will only have to balance two varaitions instead of three. The custom move they will have to balance regardless. Then, if the custom variations are too unbalanced for competitive play we remain with two balanced by developers. It's simple. But give so many opportunities.

 

[CG Nino]

Aside from balance just think of the exhaustion it will create in delays at tournaments with randoms picking through all the moves... theres a lot of non competitive people at tournaments too. They go for fun, the time to pick these would be similar to the slog that was picking gems in sfxt. Its a no go.

Theres no way to balance individual moves when you have custom kits that have a synergy without hurting the regular kits that use those moves without the "broken synergy" . Not good for serious play.

 

[NothingPersonal]

Aside from balance just think of the exhaustion it will create in delays at tournaments with randoms picking through all the moves... theres a lot of non competitive people at tournaments too. They go for fun, the time to pick these would be similar to the slog that was picking gems in sfxt. Its a no go.

Theres no way to balance individual moves when you have custom kits that have a synergy without hurting the regular kits that use those moves without the "broken synergy" . Not good for serious play.

There are 8 or less moves to choose from, and some occupy all slots at once. If you don't have a preset movelist, you can always go for one preset variation. Gems in SFxT were hundreds.
I say they let the community decide how it wants to play tournaments. They will have to balance these moves regardless.

 

[CG Nino]

There are 8 or less moves to choose from, and some occupy all slots at once. If you don't have a preset movelist, you can always go for one preset variation. Gems in SFxT were hundreds.

Its not gonna happen. The ability for geras alone to try and make time moves mixed in w timer scam etc alone makes nightmares. Leave the char direction to devs. Players need set tools and rules and know what they are facing. Thats what makes it competitive. Anything else is trying to gimmick people out with things that they arent prepared for.

Also they have said in interviews they want to add variations or moves later in patches as the game develops. So they have some ideas already to keep it fresh.

 

[NothingPersonal]

Its not gonna happen. The ability for geras alone to try and make time moves mixed in w timer scam etc alone makes nightmares. Leave the char direction to devs. Players need set tools and rules and know what they are facing. Thats what makes it competitive. Anything else is trying to gimmick people out with things that they arent prepared for.

Preset variations will still be there if the custom one turns out to be a problem. I don't see any issue. The problem is, devs want to eliminate the possibility of a custom variation from tournament play altogether. This is what concerns me.

 

[CG Nino]

Preset variations will still be there if the custom one turns out to be a problem. I don't see any issue. The problem is, devs want to eliminate the possibility of a custom variation from tournament play altogether. This is what concerns me.

And why do you think thay is? It's because they want to add fun and cheap tools, but they need to temper that by making them have that and little else. You cannot allow the supplemental good tools from one var to be added to the strong cheap gimmick of another var. Thats what makes the vars have the unique flavor be possible is they dont have the strong tools to supplement it.

That said yes the devs can do better to make all variations more well rounded so you dont have dominant ones and useless ones. Again thats up to the devs. The reality is you will always have an optimal or more chosen var because of the nature of fgs.

The best thing they can do is allow multiple playstyles with the same char repeatedly one being a grappler one a zoner one a rush down so you have options.

Personally id get rid of variations all together. Id rather just have full fledge well thought out chars then the system of broken up concepts.

 

[Law Hero]

Aside from balance just think of the exhaustion it will create in delays at tournaments with randoms picking through all the moves... theres a lot of non competitive people at tournaments too. They go for fun, the time to pick these would be similar to the slog that was picking gems in sfxt. Its a no go.

Theres no way to balance individual moves when you have custom kits that have a synergy without hurting the regular kits that use those moves without the "broken synergy" . Not good for serious play.

I agree with you in that the main strike against custom variations is tournament stress because it seems you have to go through menus in order to set them. If that's the case with the final version, then there is no choice but to stick to the presets from NRS.

That being said, I do not believe that mixing and matching moves is somehow a negative that players can't deal with. There are three move slots and all moves are available from the start. It's not some random thing no one will see coming. It will just be important to know what options the opponent has at their disposal, and how to deal with them. And as time goes on, things will refine themselves. Worrying about "broken synergy" is pointless since the whole selling point of MK11 is custom variations, I expect NRS to keep them balanced so that you can't make broken combinations.

 

[CG Nino]

I agree with you in that the main strike against custom variations is tournament stress because it seems you have to go through menus in order to set them. If that's the case with the final version, then there is no choice but to stick to the presets from NRS.

That being said, I do not believe that mixing and matching moves is somehow a negative that players can't deal with. There are three move slots and all moves are available from the start. It's not some random thing no one will see coming. It will just be important to know what options the opponent has at their disposal, and how to deal with them. And as time goes on, things will refine themselves. Worrying about "broken synergy" is pointless since the whole selling point of MK11 is custom variations, I expect NRS to keep them balanced so that you can't make broken combinations.

Edited my post to expand a bit on it.

 

[CG Nino]

I agree with you in that the main strike against custom variations is tournament stress because it seems you have to go through menus in order to set them. If that's the case with the final version, then there is no choice but to stick to the presets from NRS.

That being said, I do not believe that mixing and matching moves is somehow a negative that players can't deal with. There are three move slots and all moves are available from the start. It's not some random thing no one will see coming. It will just be important to know what options the opponent has at their disposal, and how to deal with them. And as time goes on, things will refine themselves. Worrying about "broken synergy" is pointless since the whole selling point of MK11 is custom variations, I expect NRS to keep them balanced so that you can't make broken combinations.

Also, having a matchup change drastically w one special is a real thing. The mentality of usually facing a grappler for example who usually has his standard grappler tools have a zoning variation is very diff then that same grappler that happens to now have fbs... usually the zoning var loses those grappling tools in some capacity. Losing one of the 2 grabs for a fb is a completelyyyyy diff char.

Some specials are also tied to krushing blows... so theoretically you can have more of those then maybe the devs are intending with set variations. We can see the kbs are gonna be a huge feature in balancing portion of chars.

 

[Eji1700]

So what's the difference between running one set of custom moves and one preset variation because they are too good? There's nothing to lose here. They can make two variations of their choice and let one for customization. After the game si aout they will only have to balance two varaitions instead of three. The custom move they will have to balance regardless. Then, if the custom variations are too unbalanced for competitive play we remain with two balanced by developers. It's simple. But give so many opportunities.

Its a fuck load harder to fix and test.

For example if everyone is using just one variation, and then you nerf it, they will then move on to the NEXT strongest variation.

In order to have good balance, you need to make sure that every variation brings something to the table, and they struggled pretty hard with this in MKX. What was especially frustrating is it certainly seemed like they just didn't have the time to flesh out some of the variations, as there was basically no where near enough upside to picking them. While you might see 2 or 3 versions of Kung Lao being used across the games life, I don't recall many people looking into Warlock Quan Chi (or whchever one had the portals) and he was hardly the only one with that sort of issue.

So in short, everything needs to be tested and built around, and while it's a pain in the ass to test 3x as many characters because of variations, it's even more of a pain in the ass to test all sorts of possible interactions because you're allowing up to 3 slots of customization.

Lets take geras for example.

on the one hand, you've got his "go back in time" move, that moves him 4 seconds. It's noteworthy because it takes all 3 slots, so in essence this is "easy" to work with. The effect is fucking insane since it's tied to his defensive bars and thus can be done out if hitstun, but at least he's not going to combo it in some way with some unforseen interaction...great.

Now look at the fact that he can nuke the round timer to 9 seconds right at the start of the match and then bump it up again if he doesn't like the look of things. Then he can still pick 1 or two other moves (can't remember if that's a 2 slotter). That's going to be a bitch to test and an important one to get right because it's so warping. Same thing with the 2 slotter that lets him cancel out of his attacks.

Then you're finally looking at 1 slot combinations and all the shenanigans you can bring there, and now you've got to consider matchups as well. Make sure there isn't some set he's got that'll 8-2 a matchup or some such nonsense. This shit gets exponential fast.

Now to be fair, while people complain about games getting day one balance patches sometimes, it's impossible for a team of testers to ever come close to doing as much testing as the launch day community will. Shit will slip through, and 1000's of players are just so much better at figuring out shit you coudln't have thought of, so that's somewhat of a cushin if you're ready for it. Still if it's something stupid easy to do and hyper fucking degenerate (injustice superman/deadshot come to mind) it looks really bad and those first impressions matter a ton.

So ultimately, yeah, it's a vastly more complex issue to solve and a pretty risky one to take head on when we've already got louder people crying about the game pre day 1. Playing wackamole with overpowered stuff doesn't work nearly as well as having things tight to begin with, and that just flat out will require a lot of work. Keeping custom variations in is going to make that fuck lot more.

edit-

Oh i forgot to add that this is on top of a pretty drasitc mechanics change throwing them outside of their usual space already. MK9 set the ton for the new MK's, and MKX followed that. yeah you got variations and a run button, but it's still very much in the vein of MK 9. We can already see that 11 is shooting to be something that will be played quite a bit differently, and with that adjustment is going to come flaws. They'll polish them out i'm sure, but again so many of these discussions seem to forget that dev time is a very finite thing. You can't just slap new things on and not expect them to come at a cost.

 

[NothingPersonal]

Its a fuck load harder to fix and test.

For example if everyone is using just one variation, and then you nerf it, they will then move on to the NEXT strongest variation.

In order to have good balance, you need to make sure that every variation brings something to the table, and they struggled pretty hard with this in MKX. What was especially frustrating is it certainly seemed like they just didn't have the time to flesh out some of the variations, as there was basically no where near enough upside to picking them. While you might see 2 or 3 versions of Kung Lao being used across the games life, I don't recall many people looking into Warlock Quan Chi (or whchever one had the portals) and he was hardly the only one with that sort of issue.

So in short, everything needs to be tested and built around, and while it's a pain in the ass to test 3x as many characters because of variations, it's even more of a pain in the ass to test all sorts of possible interactions because you're allowing up to 3 slots of customization.

Lets take geras for example.

on the one hand, you've got his "go back in time" move, that moves him 4 seconds. It's noteworthy because it takes all 3 slots, so in essence this is "easy" to work with. The effect is fucking insane since it's tied to his defensive bars and thus can be done out if hitstun, but at least he's not going to combo it in some way with some unforseen interaction...great.

Now look at the fact that he can nuke the round timer to 9 seconds right at the start of the match and then bump it up again if he doesn't like the look of things. Then he can still pick 1 or two other moves (can't remember if that's a 2 slotter). That's going to be a bitch to test and an important one to get right because it's so warping. Same thing with the 2 slotter that lets him cancel out of his attacks.

Then you're finally looking at 1 slot combinations and all the shenanigans you can bring there, and now you've got to consider matchups as well. Make sure there isn't some set he's got that'll 8-2 a matchup or some such nonsense. This shit gets exponential fast.

Now to be fair, while people complain about games getting day one balance patches sometimes, it's impossible for a team of testers to ever come close to doing as much testing as the launch day community will. Shit will slip through, and 1000's of players are just so much better at figuring out shit you coudln't have thought of, so that's somewhat of a cushin if you're ready for it. Still if it's something stupid easy to do and hyper fucking degenerate (injustice superman/deadshot come to mind) it looks really bad and those first impressions matter a ton.

So ultimately, yeah, it's a vastly more complex issue to solve and a pretty risky one to take head on when we've already got louder people crying about the game pre day 1. Playing wackamole with overpowered stuff doesn't work nearly as well as having things tight to begin with, and that just flat out will require a lot of work. Keeping custom variations in is going to make that fuck lot more.

edit-

Oh i forgot to add that this is on top of a pretty drasitc mechanics change throwing them outside of their usual space already. MK9 set the ton for the new MK's, and MKX followed that. yeah you got variations and a run button, but it's still very much in the vein of MK 9. We can already see that 11 is shooting to be something that will be played quite a bit differently, and with that adjustment is going to come flaws. They'll polish them out i'm sure, but again so many of these discussions seem to forget that dev time is a very finite thing. You can't just slap new things on and not expect them to come at a cost.

We'll still have preset variations if the custom one doesn't turn out well.

 

[Pterodactyl]

I don’t understand how anybody would want custom variations to be in competitive play. There are so many reasons why it just wouldn’t work. For one it’d be hell to balance, working with 3 variations is much easier for the devs. Think about it, if someone figures out a broken ass combination it’s gonna be much harder to patch than a standard variation. Furthermore I can’t imagine how stressful it’d be for competitors. It’s one thing to have to learn all the moves a character has at its disposal but imagine now having to be aware all of the possible combinations?

Yeah, honestly it’s baffling.

They had trouble balancing MKX’s variations, and that shit was completely set in stone.

You guys think they’re really going to be able to make custom variations fair across the board?


Not to mention, you know the problem where sometimes one variation is supremely dominant over the other two?

Even with custom variations that would still happen, people would literally just pick the optimal moveset at every tourney anyway, straying only for a counter pick tool.

Like, think about this for more than 5 seconds.

Having them be selectable at the select screen would lead to a counter-picking nightmare.

Person A chooses a hard zoner with zoning tools, then Person B goes “lol” and picks three anti-zoning attacks and completely stomps them free. If you have stuff that’s set you may have an anti zoner variation to counter pick but it’d still be balanced. Not somebody with a full screen teleport, projectile reflect, and full screen armored dash against a poor Kitana.

 

[CG Nino]

We'll still have preset variations if the custom one doesn't turn out well.

Why would they go through all the effort of making and balancing preset ones just to say screw it make your own? Thats like just throwing away money and time lol.

Instead just pray they give the vars enough options to make them worth it. Thats the best you can do. In the end one will be dominant and the same thing would happen w customs. People would figure out the new variation and run with it anyways w less foresight then the devs tried to implement.

Maybe they are releasing a smaller roster at first because they actually tried really hard to make the variations complete chars and unique enough to warrant the efforts. Its essentially balancing a whole char to do it correctly.

 

[kevkopdx]

Wouldn’t it kind of suck if the first tourney is a shitshow of broken custom variations? Tanya and Superman didn’t set very good tones for their respective games and they were play tested. If the dev team didn’t account for balancing custom variations then it shouldn’t be used.