Cheetah grievances

Discussion in 'Cheetah' started by Igniz13, Jun 7, 2017.

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  1. Igniz13

    Igniz13 Noob

    Not to say Cheetah is particularly bad, but there are issues in her design and moveset that annoy, some of which are particularly dumb.

    1: No grounded launchers out of d2
    Cheetah has no extended combos on the ground and nothing that leads to possible grounded extensions

    2: only grounded combo ender is a dp.
    Combined with General input and hit confirming issues in the game, she has no way to end grounded combos with a special outside of db2, which has it's own issues.

    3: combo enders that only work on air born opponents
    When you consider that she can't start juggles from the ground outside of d2, having most of her combo enders only work against juggled foes is counter intuitive.

    4: combo enders that send opponents flying away.

    Given that cheetah often wants to be up close, having her db1 and db2 send people flying is kinda dumb.

    5: overhead throw input

    Given that it's her best juggle ender, it'd be nice if the input was easier, especially as it's not a proper command grab.

    6: recovery of dive

    It's super bad, on whiff or block. Its another issue that contributes to the unsafe gameplay she has.

    7: lack of forward moving strings, or advancing mids.

    Feel this is General problem for the game, but walking away from someone seems very easy and cheetah doesn't have great tools for closing gaps that aren't also airborne or unsafe

    Overall, she's a bit too wild, which may be apt but could be reigned in.
     
    #1
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
    alkipot and I AM T3XAS like this.
  2. I AM T3XAS

    I AM T3XAS Noob

    • 100% agree with the above. I think she is bottom 5 in the game. Too many bad match-ups. No meaningful damage outside of MB grab or F3/B3/D2 into launcher.
    • The input for Deadly Hook(Standing command grab) is absolutely terrible. Highly inconsistent and difficult to pull off. Try to end a juggle with B2 x Deadly Hook grab is impossible unless you have gymnast fingers. The input needs to be changed to DF1 instead.
    • F2,3 needs to be changed to a forward moving string as she doesn't have a single on or at least extend the range of the first hit. It whiffs way to often.
    • D2 needs the horizontal hitbox expanded as it is not very reliable and starts up too slow. Why the hell does batman get a 6 frame D2 and Cheetah is what 9 frames? Can't reliably anti air with it.
    • Primal Rage recovery needs to be reduced by 2-3 frames. I feel like i am being punished for landing this move as the opponent gets to wake up for free since the recovery is soo long I can't really follow up after it.
    • Stand 1 needs to be a mid not a high.
    • She really needs a launcher string as you mentioned above. Characters like Batman and Catwoman have multiple launcher strings excluding MB specials which juggle extra as well.
    • Recovery on trait activation needs to be reduced greatly. Most of the match I find myself with trait still up because I don't have a open time to activate. Most zoners can punish your activation from mid-full screen. Right now the only time I activate is after D2 cancel....This is a real problem.
    • Too many of her strings have gaps and after 2 weeks of playing people are starting to learn and punish accordingly. She needs some frame adjustments on her strings.
    • 2,2 is near useless outside of corner 2,2,3 juggle. I would like to see it reworked into something useful.
    Sorry for my whining but I believe these are legit changes that help her compete with the rest of the cast. Wishful thinking. Tired of seeing the same 6 characters at every top 8 tourney the last few weeks.
     
    #2
  3. RM Truth

    RM Truth Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM

    The dive is used to mix up her air approaches and you get full combo for guessing right. It doesn't need to be safe.
     
    #3
  4. Igniz13

    Igniz13 Noob

    It doesn't need to be so negative when you miss. I don't think any other dive is quite as bad, maybe supermans.

    I forgot about her lack of forward moving strings.
     
    #4
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  5. karaokelove

    karaokelove Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Cheetah has some terrible matchups, but she is nowhere close to Bottom 5. If your complaints are about her execution, my only advice is to spend some time in practice mode. I'm stuck playing on a ps4 pad while my Hitbox is in the shop, and I have no trouble with her execution, other than the occasional db2 ender instead of dbf1 if I input it too quickly. Just practice and it will become second nature.

    Otherwise...
    • Why does she need launchers? Her damage is already fine, if not above average. She's not a juggle character.
      • That said, are you not using f3? That might be the best grounded launcher in the game. f3-j3-112~dbf1.mb-112~db2 seems like a pretty good juggle combo to me...
    • What's wrong with Primal Rage as an ender? It deals decent damage and leaves you +40. Yeah, it knocks the opponent away, but at +40, you have enough time to dash in or Blood Lunge in to shorten that distance. In the corner, the distance is no longer a factor.
      • If your issue is that Primal Rage is unsafe, work on hit-confirming into it. You can always cancel into Blood Lunge to remain almost completely safe if the opponent blocks your strings.
    • Dbf1 is a throw; it's nice that it catches juggled opponents, but that's just icing on the cake. The move isn't meant to be used in grounded strings.
    • Seriously, dbf1 is not a difficult input. It's more difficult than db1, but overall it's just in your head. Spend some time in practice mode. Have you gone in and spent 20 minutes just doing dbf1? If not, then of course it's going to feel difficult. Just think of it as two inputs: down-back and then forward-1. Easy peasy.
    • Faster recovery on a whiffed dive would be nice, but it's definitely not something she needs. Dive is a very powerful, but unsafe move. If you're just throwing it out, you're going to get blown up. Use it for whiff punishes and for catching airborne opponents who don't have the option of blocking. It has shitty priority but an amazing hitbox.
    Overall, if I had to ask for any changes, they would be:
    • Better priority on Blood Lunge (a sneeze beats out this special; maybe the least priority of any "dive" move in an NRS game)
    • Allow f32 to be used as a reliable combo ender, but maybe reduce the restand advantage to something reasonable like +8, rather than +37, otherwise she'd be straight-up broken.
     
    #5
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  6. MAPUSA

    MAPUSA Noob

    damn scrubs
    gid gud
    damn
    lol

    seriously tho, she is balanced, it feels good to win with her ;D
     
    #6
    Rey likes this.
  7. kcd117

    kcd117 Noob

    She's nowhere near bottom 5, and she doesnt need most of the things you said.
    Better hitbox on d2 and faster trait are the only things she really deserves. D2 has awful range indeed, and it seems to always trade or looses to decent jump ins. She could use a faster startup on her trait, and better cancel advantage so she can activate it after 112 for example and continue the combo afterwards. right now her d2 is only useful for trait combos, and her trait is only useful after a d2, so they are both very situational.
    She is a good character, she doesn't need to be dumb to be viable. We don't need good characters getting buffed to batman/superman status.
     
    #7
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  8. Igniz13

    Igniz13 Noob

    DBF1 isn't easy, if you get uf or df it won't come out and it takes more time than db. Injustice 2 has input issues, it's widely acknowledged. I can't even bf3 reliably and remember it's bf3b or bf3 hold then dash to cancel.

    If you're chasing a db2 with bl, then it's not +40 and your options are limited to bl follow ups.

    It's not just db2 either, db1 is the same and throw enders don't all leave you in an advantageous position.

    Her grounded damage is terrible outside of trait and she needs meter to extend combos, but she can't combo into those without juggles.

    F3 is not a neutral tool, it can't be relied on outside of oki situations
     
    #8
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  9. MAPUSA

    MAPUSA Noob

    abuse mb f3 until they stop to press buttons or do advancing strings.
    when they start to respect your f3 use your fast dash in to start pressure
     
    #9
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  10. kcd117

    kcd117 Noob

    mbf3 is a very very good neutral tool, it can also be a "fuck your neutral" tool in matchups like aqua and robin. The input issue is more of a player thing, I never had trouble getting it out consistently. you can chase primal rage with lunge and restart your offense most of the times, but it is not going to work if you are being too predictable.
     
    #10
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  11. Igniz13

    Igniz13 Noob

    But it is a mb, which goes back to my point about her needing to mb to juggle.

    I don't think she's bottom 5, game is too matchup dependant imo to really have a bottom 5
     
    #11
  12. karaokelove

    karaokelove Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    F3 is not a neutral tool? What? The advancing, armor-breaking, +10-on-block overhead into 500+ damage is not a neutral tool? I strongly disagree. Just because it has a long startup doesn't mean you can't use it in the neutral. Have you seen its hitbox? That shit is a wall that some characters simply can't break through. Combine that with her fast d3 and it's a recipe for rage-quits. Tack on a bar to meter-burn it, and what is your opponent supposed to do? It will even tear through their mb.f3 or mb.b3 for 500+ damage.

    Being limited to Blood Lunge followups means you are limited to:
    • j3 into mixups (should jail but doesn't online)
    • j1 into mixups
    • land, b1 into mixups
    • land d3
    • land low grab
    • land mb.f3
    • land jump-over j1 into mixups
    • feint a short BL to bait wakeups
    If you want to stay right on top of your opponent, just ends combos with 112~bf3b.

    Again, as far as execution, how much time have you spent practicing these moves in the lab? Not practicing combos; just practicing your problem areas (dbf1 and various distances of Blood Lunge). Have you ever played a musical instrument? Compare dbf1 to barre chords on a guitar. dbf1 is laughably easier. I promise, if you just devote a bit of practice time (even 5 minutes a day to just comboing into dbf1), you won't even have to think about it after a little while.
     
    #12
  13. kcd117

    kcd117 Noob

    She's meter hungry but she also builds a lot of it quickly, mbf3 is a very good neutral tool that juggles and leads to huge dmg. I don't see the problem here.
     
    #13
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  14. BigMacMcLovin

    BigMacMcLovin B2s and Birdarangs

    Command grabs have difficult inputs for a reason.

    I think anyone asking for an easier input should focus more on their own execution.
     
    #14
  15. Igniz13

    Igniz13 Noob

    I've said on the other thread, f3 can be just blown through, on reaction. Mbf3 is a different story.

    If you're doing dbf, you've already done db, so why would you do the extra f? It'll never be quicker. Also, you can only combo into it from a juggle, which I've already raised, these are compounding issues that add up.

    Also dbf1 is the only command grab that "hits" high (iirc) but it's still dbf.

    I made a General injustice 2 suggestion that command grabs should be bdf, which is far better.
     
    #15
  16. RM Truth

    RM Truth Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM

    Get your spacing right then. There's like a third of the cast with moves that are death sentences on whiff. That's just how fighting games are.
     
    #16
  17. Igniz13

    Igniz13 Noob

    You don't see black adam, Brainiac or Supes rolling on the floor for a minute after their dive kicks, but maybe that's the problem with those characters.

    In any case, everything special cheetah has is unsafe and hugely punishable, often to an absurd degree. I'm not saying dive should be safe, it's too strong for that, but it doesn't need to be -60 or whatever
     
    #17
  18. RM Truth

    RM Truth Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM

    Black Adam dive kick-full combo punished unless MBed or spaced properly
    Braniac-full combo punished unless MBed or spaced properly
    Superman-full combo punished regardless
     
    #18
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  19. I AM T3XAS

    I AM T3XAS Noob

    @karaokelove - Yes I have spent a ton of time practicing dbf1. after 1,1,2 it is pretty easy. It is only a problem when trying to cancel b2 into dbf1. b2 only has 2 active frames that you have to cancel into dbf1. I play on hitbox and my fingers are pretty quick but it needs to be precise as inputs in this game do not register properly. I find that going from b2 to dbf on hitbox meshes the inputs when trying to go extremely fast and I don't get the desired grab cancel.

    F3 is not great in the neutral unless you meter burn it. Yes it is +10 on block but it is also 30 frame startup. I find myself being counter poked all too often if using it without the meter burn. This is why I am saying she needs a launcher as damage without launcher or F3/B3 sucks ass.
     
    #19
  20. Igniz13

    Igniz13 Noob

    Define spaced properly here, and you'll note that b and ba can make it safe. BA can even make lightning dive kick for him.

    The roll on whiff dive for cheetah is ridiculous. It puts you at negative and rolls you up to get punished
     
    #20
  21. Circus

    Circus Tell me where you want it

    PSN:
    JTCircus
    I feel like this thread should of been for advice instead of pointing out things that she doesn't really need. She's not even decent, she's really really good.

    I predict you're going to feel so silly once the game develops and you realize how amazing she is.

    The only and I mean ONLY match ups I'd consider not using her for are Batman and Atro.
     
    #21
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
  22. karaokelove

    karaokelove Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Why mess with b2~dbf1? It's unnecessarily complicated. In any case, on Hitbox, you would practice just doing b2db (noting your button log for accuracy) until it's easy as can be. Anyone can do b2db, right? Then tack on f1 and you're done. But again, not sure why you would mess with that in the first place.

    As far as inputs, the game registers them correctly, it just holds them for too long. That should not be affecting your combos in any way.

    If you can't manage to use f3 in the neutral, then rely on d3 and low-grab to get a knockdown, and then abuse them with f3. Either way, between her dash speed and d3, her neutral is strong enough.
     
    #22
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  23. kcd117

    kcd117 Noob

    Dive is fine, it shouldn't be safe on block, it's a launcher if meter burned. On whiff I can see the recovery being a bit too long, it would be cool to be able to use it to avoid air to airs and air projectiles, but I don't think she really needs it to be safe on whiff, maybe safer, but not safe. Regarding F3, we have the best F3 in the game free, and we also have really good meter building, mbf3 is such a dominant move, I can't really see a reason not to use it if you are managing your resources the right way. Also I think somebody mentioned her regular grab... that one is awesome, corner carry for days, possibly one of the best in the game.
     
    #23
  24. karaokelove

    karaokelove Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Superman and BA are two of the strongest characters in the game. Other characters don't need buffs as much as the top 4 or 5 need to be toned down. Predator Pounce has it's uses, but it is not meant to just be thrown out like BA's Divekick.

    I also think you're comparing the wrong moves. Blood Lunge is really what should be compared to BA's Divekick. It's fast, goes full-screen, and leads to a full-combo on hit. On whiff, it recovers instantly, similarly to Sonya's and Lao's Divekicks in MKX. It's also totally safe if blocked (sometimes even plus!), which even Adam can't claim.
     
    #24
  25. RM Truth

    RM Truth Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM

    Tbh, I'm not really sure where you're going with this. You say that it is fine that it's punishable, but think its unfair that you can get whiff punished for not spacing your overhead almost full screen dive that launches for full combo?
     
    #25

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