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Characters that the delayed wakeup change will benefit the most

Pyrosis

Gentlemen, behold! My opinion!
Looking for what characters you guys think the delayed wake up nerf will benefit the most. IMO, several characters are going to shoot up in tier list from this change alone.

Terminator, Sub-Zero, and DEFINITELY Eternal Geras are the ones I think of off tops.
 

Zviko

Noob
And why exactly would those benefit more than others? And why do you think this is so big they would shoot up in tier list? I really don't get it.
 

Espio

Kokomo
And why exactly would those benefit more than others? And why do you think this is so big they would shoot up in tier list? I really don't get it.
Certain characters specialize in oki pressure more so than others. If you knock me down and you're playing Kotal Kahn for example, I am more worried about what he can do to me than Kitana or Jade because while they have staggers and options, they don't have a mid command grab that leads to really good damage. The weaker wake ups are, the more potent guessing games and choices will be for these offensive characters.

So what this boils down to is characters that benefit from harassing you on knockdown will go up if they can more effectively apply their gameplans.
 

Pyrosis

Gentlemen, behold! My opinion!
And why exactly would those benefit more than others? And why do you think this is so big they would shoot up in tier list? I really don't get it.
Terminator and Sub-Zero will both be able to apply meaty overhead pressure on your wake up a lot more efficiently than before.
Eternal Geras will now have a sand clone set up that will leave the opponent's best option to wake up blocking and submit to more of his pressure and strike/throw mix, depending on which duration of delay wakeup they go with. The only thing that beats the set up right now is short delay wakeup.
 

Pyrosis

Gentlemen, behold! My opinion!
Another I think will benefit is Ancestral Gift Nightwolf with the insane amount of knockdown you get off his amp command grab
 

Zviko

Noob
Certain characters specialize in oki pressure more so than others. If you knock me down and you're playing Kotal Kahn for example, I am more worried about what he can do to me than Kitana or Jade because while they have staggers and options, they don't have a mid command grab that leads to really good damage. The weaker wake ups are, the more potent guessing games and choices will be for these offensive characters.

So what this boils down to is characters that benefit from harassing you on knockdown will go up if they can more effectively apply their gameplans.
I understand that but that's still only 1 wake up option out of many. First they need to guess that. And many don't even use delays and if it really is that significant change, why would they use it now against such characters.

Terminator and Sub-Zero will both be able to apply meaty overhead pressure on your wake up a lot more efficiently than before.
I don't think so at all. Their overheads are 18 and 19f respectively and only have 2 active frames. That's hella hard to time right. Also If Avalance for example goes for F2 DB4(or DF4?) and miss-times F2 he will get F24 which is death on block. And what I said above, there are still many other wake up options they need to guess.
 

Pyrosis

Gentlemen, behold! My opinion!
The problem with what you're saying is this... you could evaluate that opponent has not enough meter to wakeup up2 up3, or roll. Therefore you'd be free to go for meaty pressure on the wakeup once they're lower on options. Of course you're not likely to smash an overhead while the opponent is fully stocked on meter. Before the change you're looking at the opponent still being able to, WITHOUT meter,, either immediately wake up, short delay wakeup, medium delay wakeup, or long delay. That's four different timings for your meaty overhead...

That's being reduced down to just two, and the delay will have an obvious animation as well. A metric ton easier to apply that overhead. Those frames aren't hard at all to time correctly on just two wakeup timings...

Even then, it doesn't have to be a meaty overhead. I mention these two because of the heavy mix in their strings. Could be low starters too. The pressure they will be able to put on your wakeup is going to be pretty immense say like.. after you breakaway for example.

You're saying if they don't use wakeups why would they now, but like.. after the change if they actively don't change between regular and delay wake up that makes the timing for the Sub or Terminator player way, way easier. Currently, its not something that you're actively worried about from the Sub or Term doing to your wakeup because its such an insane risk to commit to their overheads on a meter less foe that can do 4 different delay wakeup timings.

Idk what games you are playing but delay wakeup as it is currently into buttons is one of the most used defensive options, because its way better than the other more readable wakeup options.

The bigger winner to me is still Eternal Geras though. His sand clone set up is going to be busted good with no short delay wakeup. All he has to guess between is roll or up 3, and has options to beat both with the clone out.
 
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Zviko

Noob
The problem with what you're saying is this... you could evaluate that opponent has not enough meter to wakeup up2 up3, or roll. Therefore you'd be free to go for meaty pressure on the wakeup once they're lower on options. Of course you're not likely to smash an overhead while the opponent is fully stocked on meter. Before the change you're looking at the opponent still being able to, WITHOUT meter,, either immediately wake up, short delay wakeup, medium delay wakeup, or long delay. That's four different timings for your meaty overhead...

That's being reduced down to just two, and the delay will have an obvious animation as well. A metric ton easier to apply that overhead. Those frames aren't hard at all to time correctly on just two wakeup timings...

Even then, it doesn't have to be a meaty overhead. I mention these two because of the heavy mix in their strings. Could be low starters too. The pressure they will be able to put on your wakeup is going to be pretty immense say like.. after you breakaway for example.

You're saying if they don't use wakeups why would they now, but like.. after the change if they actively don't change between regular and delay wake up that makes the timing for the Sub or Terminator player way, way easier. Currently, its not something that you're actively worried about from the Sub or Term doing to your wakeup because its such an insane risk to commit to their overheads on a meter less foe that can do 4 different delay wakeup timings.

Idk what games you are playing but delay wakeup as it is currently into buttons is one of the most used defensive options, because its way better than the other more readable wakeup options.

The bigger winner to me is still Eternal Geras though. His sand clone set up is going to be busted good with no short delay wakeup. All he has to guess between is roll or up 3, and has options to beat both with the clone out.
Man, on top of those options that were designed to be wake ups, wake up jump and wake up buttons are the best 2 options in this game which is why it sucks. They can also just wake up block which is another timing. This delay change might help some characters only on read (or if they fail wake up roll which also happens a lot) and only then. But it's definitely not a change that would shake up the tier list, not even. a little bit.
 

scarsunseen

RIP TYM 6/11/2021
With fewer wake-up options, all setup characters get significantly better oki, especially because wake-up requires meter too. If you thought Joker was already S tier, just wait lol.

This potential change is also a buff for V1 "Frost-byte" Frost.
 

Pyrosis

Gentlemen, behold! My opinion!
Man, on top of those options that were designed to be wake ups, wake up jump and wake up buttons are the best 2 options in this game which is why it sucks. They can also just wake up block which is another timing. This delay change might help some characters only on read (or if they fail wake up roll which also happens a lot) and only then. But it's definitely not a change that would shake up the tier list, not even. a little bit.
Just having two wake up timings, leading to knowing when to input your meaty or trap on a downed opponent is a direct nerf to wake up jump and wake up buttons.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree then.
 
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Espio

Kokomo
I understand that but that's still only 1 wake up option out of many. First they need to guess that. And many don't even use delays and if it really is that significant change, why would they use it now against such characters.


I don't think so at all. Their overheads are 18 and 19f respectively and only have 2 active frames. That's hella hard to time right. Also If Avalance for example goes for F2 DB4(or DF4?) and miss-times F2 he will get F24 which is death on block. And what I said above, there are still many other wake up options they need to guess.
Changing just one thing has far reaching consequences in fighting game balance. Less variables is still less variables to consider so even if nothing else changes they get better. It will be more far reaching than you think. Not to mention we don't know what else may be weakened for the wake up game in the ultimate edition. It is erroneous to assume the other wake ups remain the same. Good players combine the different delay times because it makes guessing that much harder to do. Everyone doesn't do a lot of things that are good in fighting games but it doesn't make them not potent.
 

haketh

Noob
Just having two wake up timings, leading to knowing when to input your meaty or trap on a downed opponent is a direct nerf to wake up jump and wake up buttons.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree then.
Yeah exactly, the thing that made Wakeup jump so good was not really being able to know when someone was going to wakeup due to the drastically different get up times
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Buzzed D'vorah can already lock you down on oki pretty hard, but some of the setups are only effectively beaten by long delay. Depending on what the new single delay timing is, this could make a few untechable throw setups almost unavoidable.
 

Error404

Noob
Kotal . He can already punish delayed wake up with a timed unblockable. With just one type of delay it will become even easier.
 

Zviko

Noob
Changing just one thing has far reaching consequences in fighting game balance. Less variables is still less variables to consider so even if nothing else changes they get better. It will be more far reaching than you think. Not to mention we don't know what else may be weakened for the wake up game in the ultimate edition. It is erroneous to assume the other wake ups remain the same. Good players combine the different delay times because it makes guessing that much harder to do. Everyone doesn't do a lot of things that are good in fighting games but it doesn't make them not potent.
Oh I agree, it's a good change but I think it's overexaggerating to say this change alone with shoot a character up in the tier list. I do hope they tweak other wake up options as well especially those scrubby ones.
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
Certain characters specialize in oki pressure more so than others. If you knock me down and you're playing Kotal Kahn for example, I am more worried about what he can do to me than Kitana or Jade because while they have staggers and options, they don't have a mid command grab that leads to really good damage. The weaker wake ups are, the more potent guessing games and choices will be for these offensive characters.

So what this boils down to is characters that benefit from harassing you on knockdown will go up if they can more effectively apply their gameplans.
But Kitana’s b14 is already great to meaty so it’ll be even better now.