General/Other - Liu Kang Changes for liu kang in the next patch.

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Wouldn't that just kill dragons fire?

No. Dragon's Fire still would have very good zoning and very good pressure because he still would have very plus stuffs, he just would not have a lot of jailings.

I disagree with nerfing of his fbrc(s). Doing that would kill the purpose of playing dragons fire.

Same thing applies to johnny, devorah and scorpion. I agree that Johnny's should be toned down but don't kill all of his jails.

What is the purpose of playing Dragon's Fire? Good zoning with amazing offensive. He still would have good zoning with amazing offensive:

F213 FBRC would be +10 (3f frames to jail into F1)
B34/44/112 would be +7 and the first hit of B3 would be +5
F44 would be +5
111/B3/S4 would be +4
F21 would be +1

And the EX FBRCs would still be the same.

Just for the record this isn't necessarily true. If NRS made F21 neutral on block by adjusting Liu's own recovery at the end of the string, the frame advantage within the cancel window would still be the same. It's not like when they adjusted Kano's B1 and had no choice but to remove blockstun inside the duration.

That said, I do agree that F2 is already decently staggerable anyway so I don't think this is a necessary change

Interesting... I forgot about that trade - F21 neutral on block but more recovery. . But, yeah, it's not necessary. F2 is -3 I think and F2,1 is -4, good staggers.

There might not be anything Dualist-esque about the Bicycle Kick MB option but there's nothing that suggests it should be Dragon's Fire exclusive either lol. I guess the point is that it would give Dualist some more conversion ability if he needs it, and lack of conversions IS a legitimate problem for it compared to Dragon's Fire and Flame Fist.

You're right, but I think that it would make more sense if NRS make Metamorphosis 1 or 2 frames faster on recovery and reduce the pushback on hit of the 1,1,2 blockstring to make Dualist's BnBs easier.

A command grab for DUALIST isn't that bad

Dualist already has a lot of tools and a lot of them are not very good at this moment. It's better to NRS buff them instead of add one more tool. Better orbs, zoning, easier BnBs and better healing...

Other characters can jail into other things so I think toning down Kangs cancels will just be ridiculous. While you can argue the whole different tool sets and different character play styles, you cant deny that they can jail just as easily as we can. @Bruno-NeoSpace I know we had this conversation and I respect your opinions before but yes, I want to see DF Kang succeed and nerfing his cancels on block isnt going to help. I honestly would just be happy with the hitbox issues, a faster poke and/or plus 1-2 dragon kick. Other than that, he might be the most balanced character in the cast. No dirty overhead low, low over head safe 50/50s. (I dont count b2 as the 50/50 because it leads to a knockdown and nothing comes out of it)

Dragon's Fire still would have very good zoning and very good pressure because, he still would have very plus stuffs, he just would not have a lot of jailings.

F213 FBRC would be +10 (3f frames to jail into F1)
B34/44/112 would be +7 and the first hit of B3 would be +5
F44 would be +5
111/B3/S4 would be +4
F21 would be +1

And the EX FBRCs would still be the same.

 

[the.hamburglar]

No. Dragon's Fire still would have very good zoning and very good pressure because he still would have very plus stuffs, he just would not have a lot of jailings.



What is the purpose of playing Dragon's Fire? Good zoning with amazing offensive. He still would have good zoning with amazing offensive:

F213 FBRC would be +10 (3f frames to jail into F1)
B34/44/112 would be +7 and the first hit of B3 would be +5
F44 would be +5
111/B3/S4 would be +4
F21 would be +1

And the EX FBRCs would still be the same.



Interesting... I forgot about that trade - F21 neutral on block but more recovery. . But, yeah, it's not necessary. F2 is -3 I think and F2,1 is -4, good staggers.



You're right, but I think that it would make more sense if NRS make Metamorphosis 1 or 2 frames faster on recovery and reduce the pushback on hit of the 1,1,2 blockstring to make Dualist's BnBs easier.



Dualist already has a lot of tools and a lot of them are not very good at this moment. It's better to NRS buff them instead of add one more tool. Better orbs, zoning, easier BnBs and better healing...



Dragon's Fire still would have very good zoning and very good pressure because, he still would have very plus stuffs, he just would not have a lot of jailings.

F213 FBRC would be +10 (3f frames to jail into F1)
B34/44/112 would be +7 and the first hit of B3 would be +5
F44 would be +5
111/B3/S4 would be +4
F21 would be +1

And the EX FBRCs would still be the same.

So your saying we should nerf him some more?

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

So your saying we should nerf him some more?

Nerfs, buffs and fixes...

3 nerfs:

- Hurtbox on D+3 slighty increased.

- U+4 is now a high.

- Dragon Fire now has 3 frames of added delay before you can cancel out of it on block. (this does not affect any current dash cancel combos and there is no delay on Hit)

13 buffs:

- U+4 start up now changed to 10 frames.
- U+4 now has a slightly increased upward hitbox.
- The last hit of Snapping Dragon (1,1,2) now has less pushback on hit.

Dualist:
- All Solar Flare projectiles drain one bar of energy from the opponent on hit. (energy = stamina for running)
- All Solar Flare projectile types drain half of a bar of energy from the opponent on block.

- Instant air Soul Spheres have recovery reduced.
- EX B,F+1+BLK (Dark Sphere) now absorbs and negates all projectiles that it comes in contact with.
- EX B,F+1+BLK (Dark Sphere) no longer counts as a projectile and cannot be negated or absorbed by any other projectile based attack.
- All Soul Spheres now have a slightly increased hitbox on the explosion.
- All Soul Spheres now absorb 1 projectile that they collide with only when Yang (D,B+3) buff is active.

- Better healing.
- All Soul Spheres now start-up closer to Liu Kang.

Flame Fist:
- All fireballs now have a slightly increased hitbox.

Fixes:

- Flying Kick~MB (B,F+2~Meter Burn) hitbox adjusted so it no longer whiffs or switches sides against certain characters crouch blocking.

- Orbs does not explode on walls anymore.
- Mids being mids. F4,4/F4,4,4/etc

 

[the.hamburglar]

Nerfs, buffs and fixes...

3 nerfs:





13 buffs:




- Better healing.
- All Soul Spheres now start-up closer to Liu Kang.

Flame Fist:
- All fireballs now have a slightly increased hitbox.

Fixes:


- Orbs does not explode on walls anymore.
- Mids being mids. F4,4/F4,4,4/etc

The problem with that more than the
majority plays either DF and FF and recently all we get is more nerfs rather than buffs. You say his pressure will be strong which I dont doubt but it wont be up to par with the top tiers and he already isnt up to par

 

[EMPR_MURK]

Nerfs, buffs and fixes...

3 nerfs:





13 buffs:




- Better healing.
- All Soul Spheres now start-up closer to Liu Kang.

Flame Fist:
- All fireballs now have a slightly increased hitbox.

Fixes:


- Orbs does not explode on walls anymore.
- Mids being mids. F4,4/F4,4,4/etc

F213 should stay the way it is currently. There is no real reason to nerf it even more.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

F213 should stay the way it is currently. There is no real reason to nerf it even more.

F213 FBRC is +13, so, Kang can do:

F4 (10f low combo starter);
B2 (14f overhead and +18 on hit);
Forward throw or backward throw (10f and +11 on hit);
F2 (10f mid).

It's more than a 50/50.

The problem with that more than the
majority plays either DF and FF and recently all we get is more nerfs rather than buffs. You say his pressure will be strong which I dont doubt but it wont be up to par with the top tiers and he already isnt up to par

I don't know if his pressure will be up to par with the top tiers but at least it will still be very strong and more FAIR. And at this moment, Dragon's Fire is S tier.

 

[the.hamburglar]

F213 FBRC is +13, so, Kang can do:

F4 (10f low combo starter);
B2 (14f overhead and +18 on hit);
Forward throw or backward throw (10f and +11 on hit);
F2 (10f mid).

It's more than a 50/50.



I don't know if his pressure will be up to par with the top tiers but at least it will still be very strong and more FAIR. And at this moment, Dragon's Fire is S tier.

Dragon Fire is not S tier. He might be A but S tier is a little far fetched. He has almost no forward advancing moves, tons of hitbox issues and just lacks what the other cancel characters have. He isnt bad, but I think he balanced. An example would be, when can you get your opponent to block the whole game or not press buttons like how he used to be or how JC/ D'vorah is which I know(comparing characters) but still, he just lacks in pressure compared to them. Id happily take the 3 frame nerf if I could build a bar of meter back at the end of a blockstring or be plus 2 again but hey, we made Sacrifices but they were in vain IMO. Crazy how characters like Cage and D'Vorah slipped under the radar for so long

 

[EMPR_MURK]

F213 FBRC is +13, so, Kang can do:

F4 (10f low combo starter);
B2 (14f overhead and +18 on hit);
Forward throw or backward throw (10f and +11 on hit);
F2 (10f mid).

It's more than a 50/50.



I don't know if his pressure will be up to par with the top tiers but at least it will still be very strong and more FAIR. And at this moment, Dragon's Fire is S tier.

F213 no longer jails into b2, b3, or b4.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Dragon Fire is not S tier. He might be A but S tier is a little far fetched. He has almost no forward advancing moves, tons of hitbox issues and just lacks what the other cancel characters have. He isnt bad, but I think he balanced. An example would be, when can you get your opponent to block the whole game or not press buttons like how he used to be or how JC/ D'vorah is which I know(comparing characters) but still, he just lacks in pressure compared to them. Id happily take the 3 frame nerf if I could build a bar of meter back at the end of a blockstring or be plus 2 again but hey, we made Sacrifices but they were in vain IMO. Crazy how characters like Cage and D'Vorah slipped under the radar for so long

He does not have a very good advancing move to combo but he's got very good zoning, his B2 is a very good knockdown overhead with a very good range and is safe against most of the characters and his B4 is one the best in the game because it's fast, it has good range, it low profiles a lot of things and it's safe;
He's walk speed is one of the best in the game;
He's got meterless high damage - 32% midscreen (with a very good corner carry) and 35% in the corner;
He can hit confirm everything because of his cancels;
He's got amazing pressure;
6f F1;
His D3 is +1 and it low profiles;
He's got one the best D2 in the game;
He does not need to spend his meter on his pressure and combos, so he can save his meter to do breakers.

He's got just 9 bad matchups - Swarm Queen (4-6), Cutthroat (4-6), Mournful (4-6), Shaolin (4-6), Piercing (3-7), Demolition (4-6), Tempest (4-6), Grandmaster (4-6) and Royal Storm (4-6).

F213 no longer jails into b2, b3, or b4.

F213 FBRC is +13, B2 and B4 are 14f, so it does not jail; but B3 is 12f, so it jails.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

He does not have a very good advancing move to combo but he's got very good zoning, his B2 is a very good knockdown overhead with a very good range and is safe against most of the characters and his B4 is one the best in the game because it's fast, it has good range, it low profiles a lot of things and it's safe;
He's walk speed is one of the best in the game;
He's got meterless high damage - 32% midscreen (with a very good corner carry) and 35% in the corner;
He can hit confirm everything because of his cancels;
He's got amazing pressure;
6f F1;
His D3 is +1 and it low profiles;
He's got one the best D2 in the game;
He does not need to spend his meter on his pressure and combos, so he can save his meter to do breakers.

He's got just 9 bad matchups - Swarm Queen (4-6), Cutthroat (4-6), Mournful (4-6), Shaolin (4-6), Piercing (3-7), Demolition (4-6), Tempest (4-6), Grandmaster (4-6) and Royal Storm (4-6).



F213 FBRC is +13, B2 and B4 are 14f, so it does not jail; but B3 is 12f, so it jails.

I also disagree with a few of those mu numbers but thats another discussion...

Show a video where you are jailing f123 into b3 (in current patch).

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

I also disagree with a few of those mu numbers but thats another discussion...

Show a video where you are jailing f123 into b3 (in current patch).

It's not necessary to make a video to prove it because the frame data proves that it jails.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

It's not necessary to make a video to prove it because the frame data proves that it jails.

As inconsistent as the frame data of mkx has been, i need proof of this because i think that f213 fbrc is plus 11

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

It's not necessary to make a video to prove it because the frame data proves that it jails.

As inconsistent as the frame data of mkx has been, i need proof of this because i think that f213 fbrc is plus 11

 

[EMPR_MURK]

Good stuff...but still not a valid reason to nerf it because it isn't like all of his other strings jail (except mostly into f1).

 

[RM AtK!]

I know i don't play much anymore, but my opinion i'd prolly play again if Liu had these changes and Dvorah and johnny had similar changes as well
Dragon Fire
Fb Cancels reduced to around +5-7 on block
MB bf2 (Bike kick )+1 on block
Bike kick (more punishable on block)
Fixed hitbox issues with F44 / and MB f2(bikekick) on Kitana and other weird hitboxes that it wiffs on

Global fixes for Liu ( i think these will help Dualist a bunch also)
F21 = Neutral on block
B34 = Neutral on block
D1 = 7 Frames (- on block)
d3 = 8 frames (- on block)
11 (hitbox fix so 2nd hit is mid all the time)

with these changes given to dvorah and johnny cage etc i think they'd all be around the same with liu ofc lacking more in the range for buttons but his stronger fb game.
Seeing as Johnny has +forceballs (like lius kick and dvorah having the puddle / wasp mindgames)
Dvorah and johnny also have viable staggers that are Neutral or Better so imo they would all be doin the same stuff but liil more fair

Again this is just my opinion, and i think it would be interesting to play the game if not everything is jailing for free and had to actaully think.

 

[the.hamburglar]

I know i don't play much anymore, but my opinion i'd prolly play again if Liu had these changes and Dvorah and johnny had similar changes as well
Dragon Fire
Fb Cancels reduced to around +5-7 on block
MB Bike kick +1 on block
Bike kick (more punishable on block)
Fixed hitbox issues with F44 / and MB f2(bikekick) on Kitana and other weird hitboxes that it wiffs on

Global fixes for Liu ( i think these will help Dualist a bunch also)
F21 = Neutral on block
B34 = Neutral on block
D1 = 7 Frames (- on block)
d3 = 8 frames (- on block)
11 (hitbox fix so 2nd hit is mid all the time)

with these changes given to dvorah and johnny cage etc i think they'd all be around the same with liu ofc lacking more in the range for buttons but his stronger fb game.
Seeing as Johnny has +forceballs (like lius kick and dvorah having the puddle / wasp mindgames)
Dvorah and johnny also have viable staggers that are Neutral or Better so imo they would all be doin the same stuff but liil more fair

Again this is just my opinion, and i think it would be interesting to play the game if not everything is jailing for free and had to actaully think.

Mb bycycle kick is plus

 

[Meep8345]

He does not have a very good advancing move to combo but he's got very good zoning, his B2 is a very good knockdown overhead with a very good range and is safe against most of the characters and his B4 is one the best in the game because it's fast, it has good range, it low profiles a lot of things and it's safe;
He's walk speed is one of the best in the game;
He's got meterless high damage - 32% midscreen (with a very good corner carry) and 35% in the corner;
He can hit confirm everything because of his cancels;
He's got amazing pressure;
6f F1;
His D3 is +1 and it low profiles;
He's got one the best D2 in the game;
He does not need to spend his meter on his pressure and combos, so he can save his meter to do breakers.

He's got just 9 bad matchups - Swarm Queen (4-6), Cutthroat (4-6), Mournful (4-6), Shaolin (4-6), Piercing (3-7), Demolition (4-6), Tempest (4-6), Grandmaster (4-6) and Royal Storm (4-6).



F213 FBRC is +13, B2 and B4 are 14f, so it does not jail; but B3 is 12f, so it jails.

His fireball cancels are fine but how is the DF vs tempest mu even close to being in tempest's favor? The only real advantage Lao has is that at f2 range he has to respect him but DF can just back up and whiff punish him if he reads it. Getting rid of hat spin in the neutral is very easy for DF so it's not a problem at all as well. Anyways all Liu needs imo is 111 fixed,f44 whiffing fixed, and an 8f d1. Idk about dualist but I know FF is perfectly fine where it is it seems.

 

[RM AtK!]

Mb bycycle kick is plus

what

 

[the.hamburglar]

what

Meterburn Bicycle is plus 1. I always remembered it being neutral and not sure when they changed it to plus 1 but check for yourself

 

[Wushu Warrior]

Wishful thinking but....
•bicycle kick into MB flip kick to auto correct
•b2 to be -7 on block
•better hit box on jump 1
•change last input on f4.4.4 change to f4.4.3
•d,b2 to have faster start up and improved hitbox

 

[the.hamburglar]

Wishful thinking but....
•bicycle kick into MB flip kick to auto correct
•b2 to be -7 on block
•better hit box on jump 1
•change last input on f4.4.4 change to f4.4.3
•d,b2 to have faster start up and improved hitbox

Because db2 is so slow, I often wake up back bf2. Also theres already a f4,4,3 move.

 

[Wushu Warrior]

Because db2 is so slow, I often wake up back bf2. Also theres already a f4,4,3 move.

and get low profiled by reptiles d3 right?
And I forgot about f4,4,3 probably.

 

[the.hamburglar]

and get low profiled by reptiles d3 right?
And I forgot about f4,4,3 probably.

Im just saying its an option, doesnt mean it needs to get used every time. If he d3 then the db2 shouldnt whiff. If he tries to pressure with a meaty, use df2. Whatever floats your boat my man

 

[Frenzy]

Another change I would like to see is bf1 be made plus 6 on hit in dragons fire. It's -3 right now. I don't see why it should be the other guy's turn for me landing a successful hit.

 

[PapaRegadetho]

So, do anyone here, even after a year, get pissed off when bicycle kicks phucking whiff on a STANDING blocking opponent and that b2 isnt a HKD?