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Strategy "Can Technology bring happiness? No, but it will bring your demise!" - Lex Setups Explored

T4T|Nevan

"Burn baby! Burn!"
While testing some setups vs Green Arrow, mostly [...] j2 b2 xx mid mine, I noticed that some wake ups would nullify the mine or the push block didn't get him on the mine. So I wanted to test vs each character, how their wake up moves affect the setup, what's the outcome.

So I'll explain what I'll aproach. I like to explore Lex options without trait, that way, by causing a action -> reaction scenario, I can see how the op reacts to the setup and what tendencies does he have vs said setup. I'll go through the 'reasonable' wake up moves, mostly evasive or advancing. The objective is to put them on the mine, by either a pushblock or properties of the move used.

If you guys find usefull, or crucial, I can list the punishes vs the move used, cause, as LtLuthor said most of those wake ups can be punished afterwards with no need to burn a meter bar. However I want you to follow me on this, I want to 'force' them to wake up , to panic due to the threat of a mine and thinking:"Oh imma use this wake up! It gets further away from the mine!". The fools will not be happy with the option to pushblock.

I'll keep the post updated with my results, I'm going through all the cast. The thread can be further extended by approaching the same 'action -> reaction scenario' regarding the other Lex setups.

I hope this is helpful.

These tests were made with the AI on Auto Block and Wake Up On.

Legend(all moves are listed as facing right)

Mid Mine - dd3
Close Mine - dd3b
Red - Doesn't work even with/without pushblock
Green - Works with/without pushblock

Setup - [...] j2 b2 xx mine

vs The Flash
Lightning Charge(bf2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Sonic Pound(df3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Flying Uppercut(db3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Speed Dodge(db1):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: You must block Flying Uppercut standing otherwise it'll cross up. Lightning Charge no need to pushblock it using a close mine. Speed Dodge will evade but can be countered with throw/f3/b3, however MB Speed Dodge might get rid of those options, need to test it.
vs Nightwing
Escrima > Flip Kick(db3):
- j2 b2 xx
mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Staff > Staff Spin(db2):
- j2 b2 xx
mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Staff > Flying Grayson(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: No need to pushblock Staff Spin when using a close mine.
vs Batman
Cape Parry(db3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Slide Kick(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Cape Parry is weak vs low, but if you throw Batman into the mine, when waking up from the throw a wake up Cape Parry will nullify the mine.
vs Cyborg
Powerfist(db1):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Techno Tackle(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: This was damn hilarious but if Cyborg wakes up with Techno Tackle against a close mine, when he recovers he'll roll back into the mine LOL Didn't test MB Techno Tackle.
vs Green Arrow
Savage Shot(db2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Stinger(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Savage Shot against mid mine gets right on the mine. Wasn't able to replicate Stinger nullifying the mine. I think that happened due to an input error, to precise: 2 xx mine - the wake up invul would nullify the mine.
vs Superman
Rising Grab(df2):
- j2 b2 xx
mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Flying Punch(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx
mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Low Scoop(df1):
- j2 b2 xx
mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: block Rising Grab standing, if crouched it will cross up, hence, getting away. Low Scoop against close mine nullifyies it.
vs Martian Manhunter
Phase Charge(bf2):
- j2 b2 xx
mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Phase Assault(db3):
- j2 b2 xx
mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Martian Grab(db1):
- j2 b2 xx
mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Psionic Push(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx
mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Psionic Push can't be pushblocked. All MMH wake ups against close mine are all caught, no need to push block them. It's safe to say that close mine is the way to go vs MMH.
vs Raven
Behind Dark Transmition(df3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: this was the only wake up I tested for Raven. She has a really weak wake up game and Lex benefits from it a lot. If anyone has some insight on this please go ahead.

vs Aquaman
Water Shield(db2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Water Shield against mid mine can't be grabed. MB Water Shield blows you way if delayed.

vs Wonder Woman
Amazonian Uppercut(df3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Lasso Spin(db3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Bracelets of Submission(db1):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Amalthea Bash(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Lasso Spin nullifies close mine. Amalthea Bash against close mine gets on it while Lex blocks, no need to pushblock. Bracelets are vulnerable to lows/grab.

vs Zatanna

Tropelet Yawa(dub):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Due to the option to teleport away you can mix it up with a far mine, instead of close/mid mine.

vs Hawkgirl
Mace Charge(bf2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Wing Evade(db2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Wing Evade just by it self gets caught on mid mine, however by pressing 3 for Dive Kick she can get out.

vs Shazam

Athlas Torpedo(bf2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Hercules Might(dbf1):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Eluding Mercury Storm(db3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: All his wake ups avoid the mine setups, altough I think you can catch Eluding Mercury Storm with a far mine. Don't fret tho, I'll aproach how you can 'punish' Shazams, and others, attempts to get away.

vs Green Lantern

Lanterns Might(db1):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Turbine Smash(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Lanterns Might and Turbine Smash against close mine get caught on the spot.

vs Batgirl

Bat-Wheel(db2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Redemption(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Bat-Evade(db3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Smoke Bomb(dd3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: It's when you test something that you come to realization of certain facts, Batgirls wake up is damned scary. Bat-Evade escapes all mines and can punish Lex, take care. Smoke Bomb against close mine gets caught on spot.

vs Lobo

Czarnian Toss(dbf2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Hook Charge(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Czarnian Toss gets out of every mine setup but you can interrupt(punish) with a 112.

vs The Joker

Crowbar(bf1):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: For the moment nothing to add. If you have anything to add to this please do.

vs Harley Quinn


Play Doctor(dbf1):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Silly Slide(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Trantrum Stance(db3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Silly Slide can be interrupted with 112, for exemple, but the first hit will wiff and can also be thrown.

vs Solomon Grundy

Walking Corpse(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: WC escapes every mine setup and he can't be thrown. In another post I'll explore was to punish this, if there is any.

vs Zod


Zod Charge(bf2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Zod Charge against close mine will get caught either if you block or not.

vs Lex Luthor


Corp Charge(bf2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine
- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Corp Charge can't be pushblocked.

vs Catwoman


Cat Dash(bf2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Didn't test Cat Scratch. Low Feline Evade can escape mine setups by nullifying them, however I need to test this further.

vs Deathstroke


Sword Flip
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Sword Spin
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: To get Sword Flip on mid mine you need to pushblock it asap.

vs Scorpion

Teleport Punch(db3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Flip Kick(df2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Leg Takedown(bf3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Leg Takedown against close mine, while recovering he'll get into the mine. No pushblock needed.

vs Ares


God Smack(dd2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Warp Transmition(db3/df3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Warp Transmitions nullify either mine. God Smack against close mine gets caught on start up.

vs Killer Frost

Black Ice(bd3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Flash Freeze(dbf2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Flash Freeze against close mine gets caught on spot.

vs Doomsday


Venom(df3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Up Venom(db3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Supernova(db2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Venom, it will mostly used with MB, it'll get away from both mines and if you want to pushblock you have to pushblock the 2nd hit. If the 1st is pushed the 2nd will nullify the pushblock effect. Up Venom crosses up and can't be pushblocked.

vs Sinestro

Arachnid Sting(df2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: No need to pushblock Arachnid Sting against close mine.

vs Black Adam


Lightning Cage(db3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: Lightning Cage nullifies close mine.

vs Bane


Double Punch(bf2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Body Press(dbf3):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Venon Uppercut(db2):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Raging Charge(bf1):
- j2 b2 xx mid mine

- j2 b2 xx close mine

Notes: No need to pushblock Raging Charge against a close mine.

*Log - updated 20/11/2013*
*Log - updated 21/11/2013*
 
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Dude, this is awesome!

Really good to have this info for soooo many reason. I'm gonna link to this on the setup threads that use mines.

There's just one thing I'd add, which is whether or not the wake-up armors through the mine, or just gets them out of the mine's hitbox.

The absolute worst case scenario is if the wakeup armors through the mine, because not only are they not caught in the mine, but it makes the mine dissappear because it "hits" but does nothing because of the armor.

Wakeups that get them out of the mine just by moving out of the way before it activates aren't as bad because they leave the mine behind them so you can 50/50 them into the mine aftewards.

One example, I think, is Nightwing's staff spin. If memory serves me right, I once had a NW player tech roll into a Staff-Spin wakeup, and he armored through the mine, making it dissappear.

Also, to save you some time, there are no projectile wakeups with armor in this game. If they get up shooting any ranged attack, they will always eat a mine under them, so you don't need to worry about testing those.
 

T4T|Nevan

"Burn baby! Burn!"
I'm glad this can be useful! =)

Alright, Imma test those out aswell.

I have more characters tested but I'm at work and don't wanna push it ahah All I can say is: poor Raven xD

Later tonight I'll add more characters and I hope that till the end of the week everyone is covered.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Tell me about it... I play Lex/Joker against a Shazam player all of the time. Best thing you do is get a probe in the air or bait teleports/torpedos and punish them.

Also if you delay it, you can throw a close mine that won't be destroyed by the wakeup teleport and covers his close teleport option. That said he can just torpedo through it so it's not too useful.
 

T4T|Nevan

"Burn baby! Burn!"
Yeah, that was one of the options that I was going to include vs those kind of characters + options.
 

T4T|Nevan

"Burn baby! Burn!"
That can also work...sometimes hehe

I'm testing the rest of the characters atm and tomorrow the thread will be complete, regarding mine setups vs op options.
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
i'm actually starting to have a problem with posting a bunch of character specific setups. not that it's bad or not legit or anything, just that there's a lot that relies on your opponent not knowing what they should do against them. against a lot of the people i play against now i'm ending combos in probe unless i want to be gimmicky lol. so yeah, not trying to nullify this in any way, just saying that theres so much that's based on the situation which is why i haven't looked into this stuff too much recently
 

miloPKL

soundcloud.com/pukelization
i appreciate the effort but personally i dont use character or stage specific setups. it might be my flaw to deal with, but i focus on just a universal footsie game as much as possible. im sure with time one can learn and execute these on demand with practice and memory. though its just not my style.

theres too much character scenario specific matchup info in lex forums and not enough focus on a universal strategy or tech or breakthrough to really level him up IMO. maybe i just suck with lex and am not willing to put effort in to learn this kind of stuff. but i am after a unified theory.
 

T4T|Nevan

"Burn baby! Burn!"
dont know what the heck lex does, but I love the threads name.
ahahah Thanks! I also think it's really cool :p

i'm actually starting to have a problem with posting a bunch of character specific setups. not that it's bad or not legit or anything, just that there's a lot that relies on your opponent not knowing what they should do against them. against a lot of the people i play against now i'm ending combos in probe unless i want to be gimmicky lol. so yeah, not trying to nullify this in any way, just saying that theres so much that's based on the situation which is why i haven't looked into this stuff too much recently
I agree, thats one of the reasons that I started this thread. I want to know, or at least to be aware, of what possible options my op has against said setup. Of course that even two players using the same character can react diferently, but they are limited to a certain point, wake up moves and etc.

No problem, this is why forums and discussion groups exist. I apreciate your and everyones input on this.

i appreciate the effort but personally i dont use character or stage specific setups. it might be my flaw to deal with, but i focus on just a universal footsie game as much as possible. im sure with time one can learn and execute these on demand with practice and memory. though its just not my style.

theres too much character scenario specific matchup info in lex forums and not enough focus on a universal strategy or tech or breakthrough to really level him up IMO. maybe i just suck with lex and am not willing to put effort in to learn this kind of stuff. but i am after a unified theory.
Yup, I think it really comes down how does one play a character. I love setups, I enjoy testing and to condition my oponent.

The info i've been sharing isn't mandatory, nothing like "U HAVE TO USE DIS!" but more "Oh! Against this character he can either do this or that vs this.". They are several scenarios that be held in mind when you are against a said character.
 
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PPJ

()
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
shazam MU sucks. it might be better to go easy on the setups and instead opt for max damage combos or end with somethign like u3~trait cancel
 

T4T|Nevan

"Burn baby! Burn!"
Good lord I eat a bunch of words sometimes lol

Thanks for the input PimPim!

EDIT: all characters tested! Tomorrow I'll finish it up, then I'll resume my training to a local in December and start working on punishing your op.
 
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T4T|Nevan

"Burn baby! Burn!"
Sorry for the double post, but every character covered. Will start with punish options in the reserved post.
 
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Galactic Geek

Losing is learning; winning is succeeding.
One of the reasons I love to play Lex so much is that there are so many possibilities for how you can play him using his numerous setups. With other characters, like Green Lantern or Scorpion, I generally only see 1 style of play & to me, that gets boring, repetitive, & predictable - that's 3 things that a great Lex player never is.

That being said, I've been practicing against numerous characters in training & learning which wake-ups avoid my mine setups after a background bounce - this by & large saves me a lot of time & I greatly appreciate that. ;)
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Me personally, I'm not a huge lex player but I find myself not so much using gimmicks and then using more, but using gimmicks and using less, only abusing them on characters I know can't stop me. Like Zod, I know I can abuse his wake-ups after the b.3 f.3 mine set-up.
 

Galactic Geek

Losing is learning; winning is succeeding.
Me personally, I'm not a huge lex player but I find myself not so much using gimmicks and then using more, but using gimmicks and using less, only abusing them on characters I know can't stop me. Like Zod, I know I can abuse his wake-ups after the b.3 f.3 mine set-up.
You just taught me something I didn't know - hitting them with a b3 into a f3 is a hard knockdown, which makes it easy to setup a gravity mine. I'll have to try that. Thanks! ;)
 

T4T|Nevan

"Burn baby! Burn!"
Trying to update the damned Op with spoilers to keep it a bit shorter but a damned Java Script error isnt alowing me to finish it.