Can reversals be used against heavy stagger pressure?

[Miasmata123]

Edit:

Seems like with a fast enough reversal you can essentially "fuzzy" a Jacqui f3 stagger.

This is doable on any string with a large disparity between blockstun and start up time of next attack. Mind you Jacqui is left only -2 after f3 and f31 so her s1/d1 will trade with a 10f (or 9f idfk) reversal, though Jacqui risks not being frame perfect. How useful it is definitely depends on the character but it's something Jacqui may have to respect.

Edit 2: can also do this against Cassie f4 if you have enough range on the reversal. Might be easier to just reversal on reaction rather than rely on the OS but it's there at least.
Should be possible vs Cassie b24 as well.

ORIGINAL POST:
So lately I've been playing with Kollector who has some great fast specials (10f mid command grab and 9f mid).

I've been experimenting with some stuff and it feels like it's close to usable but I have terrible timing and I'm bad so maybe not, but that's why I'm here to ask.

So I've been labbing vs Jacqui and I noticed after her f3 i could input dbf3 (10f mid command grab) and if I spotted the cancel I could release block and I'd win out. If not, I just held block. If she did f31 cancel into 11 my 10f traded but I might not have been frame perfect on her 1 (though UltraDavid said he believed specials hit on the last start up frame while normals hit on first active or something idk).
I can do this pretty consistently in the lab. I just can't figure out frame wise if you can create a sort of "fuzzy" out of this because I'm not entirely sure on when it's too late to get a reversal. It seems like as long as you input before blockstun is over though you can get it to come out, and obviously blockstun on f3 has to be longer than it takes for f31 to connect, so I assume if I had better timing this would be feasible.

Is this usable tech or am I just wasting my time?

 

[ArryKae]

I had no idea you could buffer while blocking. That sounds very useful to me. Maybe others knew this.

As far as specials coming out a frame early, I wouldn't think so, but I'll wait for someone smarter than me to answer for sure. From what I understand, if you get a reversal, it shaves a frame off of any button. So, a 11f becomes a 10f. I think I heard it from Ketchup or Mustard.

 

[Baconlord]

It's definitely possible if you have a special fast enough. You can pretty much just mash out specials for the reversal timing. I personally would rather just hit a button to get out of pressure since a special that fast is usually unsafe. I have no idea if you can do some kind of os with it but I assume you can't in most senerios. Also ultradavid is right, when a special comes out on reversal it comes out 1 frame earlier

 

[Miasmata123]

I had no idea you could buffer while blocking. That sounds very useful to me. Maybe others knew this.

As far as specials coming out a frame early, I wouldn't think so, but I'll wait for someone smarter than me to answer for sure. From what I understand, if you get a reversal, it shaves a frame off of any button. So, a 11f becomes a 10f. I think I heard it from Ketchup or Mustard.

I think the directions are fine to buffer while blocking, just the last button has to be inputted as you release block. There seems to be some wiggle room but not too much.

It's definitely possible if you have a special fast enough. You can pretty much just mash out specials for the reversal timing. I personally would rather just hit a button to get out of pressure since a special that fast is usually unsafe. I have no idea if you can do some kind of os with it but I assume you can't in most senerios. Also ultradavid is right, when a special comes out on reversal it comes out 1 frame earlier

Definitely interested in whether or not OS is possible or if it'd be worth investing in.
In the Jacqui example f3 causes 25f of block stun and f31 has 17f of start up, so if you can hold the reversal timing til end of block stun you just have an 8f "fuzzy" which doesnt seem bad. But the amount of time you have for a reversal isn't really made clear so I could be completely wrong and my success is purely Practice Mode reactions. Either way, getting the timing down for each pressure string would be probably be an impossible task.


Well I guess this explains a lot of the way characters like Dvorah and Kollector were balanced.

Kollector technically gets a 50/50 off his reversals between jump/block depending on command grab or shotal fury, and Dvorah can amp her 11f to be safe. Guess that helps make up for 8f d1s, though not sure if the tradeoff is entirely in their favor.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Yes it’s possible with a fast special or reversal throw.

It’s better to jab in between staggers for a full combo. I use Scorpion and he has a 7f jab that leads to full combo.

 

[GLoRToR]

Hey guys,

So lately I've been playing with Kollector who has some great fast specials (10f mid command grab and 9f mid).

I've been experimenting with some stuff and it feels like it's close to usable but I have terrible timing and I'm bad so maybe not, but that's why I'm here to ask.

So I've been labbing vs Jacqui and I noticed after her f3 i could input dbf3 (10f mid command grab) and if I spotted the cancel I could release block and I'd win out. If not, I just held block. If she did f31 cancel into 11 my 10f traded but I might not have been frame perfect on her 1 (though UltraDavid said he believed specials hit on the last start up frame while normals hit on first active or something idk).
I can do this pretty consistently in the lab. I just can't figure out frame wise if you can create a sort of "fuzzy" out of this because I'm not entirely sure on when it's too late to get a reversal. It seems like as long as you input before blockstun is over though you can get it to come out, and obviously blockstun on f3 has to be longer than it takes for f31 to connect, so I assume if I had better timing this would be feasible.

Is this usable tech or am I just wasting my time?

Jade's bf2 is pretty decent for stealing turns that way, yes.

 

[Miasmata123]

Well I decided to try and actually get the timing down.

Here's a vid. Like I said I suck but it's more of a proof of concept.

I can do it pretty consistently, and it's definitely not reaction based because I almost do it better not looking at the tv. I'm no pro so I can't tell you how easy it would be to do in a real game. I certainly couldn't, but I cant punish Johnny B2 in practice mode so take that as you will.

So one thing is this isn't exclusive to either Jacqui or Kollector. Any special reversal can be set up this way, and Jacqui's cancels don't actually affect the outcome. It's simply a blockstun vs start up thing.

Strings with gaps can't be OS'd with specials because the block stun wears off before the next attack. I tried having Jacqui cancel into Grease Kick instead and it made no difference.
Something like Liu Kang f3 is only 14f of blockstun and the start up on the next kick is 13f so this doesn't work (a 1f fuzzy). This is how most strings seem to be from my minor glance through.

So this seems like pretty cool tech. On one hand Kollector maybe gets a 50/50 anytime Jacqui tries to pressure him. On the other hand Jacqui has an 8f mid reversal that actually launches.

 

[Miasmata123]

Looking more into it, it seems such a large disparity between blockstun and start up of next move is pretty much confined to Jacqui's f3 string. There's a few others I saw but nothing noteworthy, though I certainly didnt look at everyone.

This should ge doable with all parts of Jacqui's f3 string. After f3 she's -2 so as long as you have a 9f or 10f (depending on the source) special you at most trade with her d1/s1.

I think that leaves only Jacqui, Kollector, Kano, Cassie, and that weird loadout the Lightning dude has as capable of doing this vs Jacqui f3.

 

[Miasmata123]

Oh I was wrong about that. It's also possible against Cassie f4:

That's my 10 minute timing so it's not great, and I'm awful at bf inputs so ya! I think in cases like Cassie f4 it's easier to just react to the stagger by releasing block, but it does feel more like a true OS than reaction.

Even though f4 is 0 on block there's significant pushback so I think (I did not test) that the thing to beat would be her b2, which gives you a 12f window with maybe more depending on priority.


What's funny about Cassie f4 is using a db/df input seems impossible because it means I'm ducking during the overhead. Maybe it's doable if I adjust the way I input my specials but that sounds like a lot of work.

 

[Miasmata123]

So I've definitely learned a lot and this thread is really funny in how it started.

Excess Blockstun = Start Up_1 + Active Frames_1 + Recovery_1 + Block Advantage_1 - Cancel Advantage_1 - Start Up_2

Basically every gapless string in this game can be OS'd against using this concept.
Some are harder to OS, like Cassie's or Kabal's, because they have OHs, so db/df inputs feel impossible.
Others, like Kollector's f12 string have active frames through the end of f1 blockstun so you actually can't OS it or you'll get torn up.

I dunno this seems pretty interesting to me. I feel like the Jacqui example at least is worth learning. Kinda surprised no one has anything to say one way or another, was this old news?

 

[ArryKae]

Yes, it's known as cancel advantage on hit/block. It's used to find gaps in strings for defense. And to make a string safe on block or get frame advantage, that normally would be punishable, by cancelling into a special move on offense. For instance, one of Johnny's main strings is negative on block, but he can cancel into amp force ball to make it +6 on block. Another example is a Liu Kang string that has an optional extra hit, but has a huge gap. If only the last hit connects it's a krushing blow, but it's risky cause it can be interrupted. You can cancel the last hit of that string with his parry if you think the opponent is going to interrupt.

Also, to your original post, I've learned what a reversal is. It doesn't remove a frame of start up, but is actually what you explained. You can buffer a special or throw on block and it'll come out on the first available frame after block stun.

 

[ArryKae]

For your formula, if the answer is a negative number, that is the amount of frames the gap is. I think people usually subtract the sum of those numbers from the follow up move though, but it can be done either way. Your way gives the gap frames as a negative number, the other way gives it in positive.

Also, in case you didn't know, cancel advantage only applies to the predetermined strings and specials. Also, to punish a gap you have to have a move one less frame or it'll trade. Parries are the exception, since a trade favors the parry.

The fact that you figured out this yourself is impressive. Nice work!

 

[Miasmata123]

For your formula, if the answer is a negative number, that is the amount of frames the gap is. I think people usually subtract the sum of those numbers from the follow up move though, but it can be done either way. Your way gives the gap frames as a negative number, the other way gives it in positive.

Also, in case you didn't know, cancel advantage only applies to the predetermined strings and specials. Also, to punish a gap you have to have a move one less frame or it'll trade. Parries are the exception, since a trade favors the parry.

The fact that you figured out this yourself is impressive. Nice work!

Eh I asked Dizzy a couple days ago, and he noted that special reversals have 1f shaved off of start up.

And erm yeah I understand that but the point is you can use excess blockstun to OS reversals in situations you'd otherwise be forced to frame perfect poke out of on a read, like Jacqui f31 cancel.
It's a 3f window, so it's essentially a reverse flawless block or like fuzzying Jax's mix ups, completely doable.
That seems pretty strong to me, especially in the Jacqui case, even just to condition her and force her to give up her turn after a f3.