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Match-up Discussion Beef Supreme's SZ MatchUp Chart

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I'm never going to be able to look at 2,2 the same way again....
just imagine sonyas frozen while upside down from a cartwheel and subs 22 strokes h-

@-_BEEF_SUPREME_-

up close= sonya wins
midscreen= depends on who has the lifelead, sonya gets it better, sub keeps it better and doesnt mind the corner
fullscreen= depends on who has the lead, rings can be slid from 3/4 and closer and a trade is bad for sonya
corner= its worse for sonya than it is for sub

sonyas ups are the braindead kartwheel, very good damage, chip and resets, sub does cut her d4 down though

also the guessing games are almost always in her favour

must be played carefully but its definitely manageable for both sides, the corner is where sub makes up for sonyas damage
 
You gotta explain that Cage man. 6-4 I can get behind, though I actually think its 7-3 at the highest level. But 5-5? Hell naw.
 
I've put this off for so long, but here we go.

1-9 vs Baraka
7-3 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
3-7 vs Cyrax
3-7 vs Freddy Krueger
6-4 vs Jade
4-6 vs Jax
6-4 (leaning towards 5-5)vs Johnny Cage YEAH. I FUCKING SAID IT.
3-7 vs Kabal
8-2 vs Kano
1-9 vs Kenshi
3-7 vs Kitana
4-6 vs Kung Lao
4-6 vs Liu Kang
6-4 vs Mileena
7-3 vs Nightwolf
4-6 vs Noob Saibot
6-4 vs Quan Chi
4-6 vs Raiden
6-4 vs Rain
5-5 vs Reptile
5-5 vs Scorpion
5-5 vs Sektor
4-6 vs Shang Tsung
7-3 vs Sheeva
4-6 vs Sindel
3-7(could be 2-8) vs Skarlet
4-6 vs Smoke
4-6 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker
4-6 vs Ermac

Flame away asshats.
corrected. you forget that baraka can cancel blade charge into blade charge, lol
 

Bildslash

Goro Lives 
Sub-Zero vs Rain is a solid 5-5.

Fullscreen
Sub-Zero can't do damage at all, Rain can teleport Ice Ball on reaction to full combo punish and can Lightning an Ice Clone on reaction. Since SZ can't freely throw Ice Balls he will either lame out or try to get in. In either case Rain can use that time to build meter through RH cancels. Still, at this range the match is basically a stalemate until either one of them decides to close the distance.

Midscreen to sweep distance
This is SZ's turf hands down. Rain's footsie tools like st.4 and b2 1+2 are both stopped single handedly by SZ's dreaded d4. Rain simply doesn't have a poke fast enough or with enough range to work easily around SZ's d4. Moreover, there's always the risk of dashing right into an Ice Clone. Granted, Rain can always go YOLO using Lighting as a whiff punisher, but given how unsafe and easy to avoid that moves is at this range Rain is better off not resorting to that. Rain is forced to spend meter with armored RH cancels to get in comfortably against SZ.

Corner
In the corner Rain has an easier time putting pressure on SZ; the lack of space lessens the threat of d4 and Ice Clone. When SZ is cornering Rain he will either dominate like he normally does against most of the cast or not. As long as Rain has meter he can armor RH dash cancel out of the corner to either start RH cancel pressure, throw, switch positions or counter SZ's approach attempts. Rain's advantage in this MU is his ability to nullify SZ's corner game.

Damage output
So far the MU overall looks in SZ's favor, though not by much. Rain closes the gap with his big damage output. This point is normally not taken into account in most MUs (save for Cyrax, Smoke and Ermac), however, Rain's ability to deal over 40% consistently and meterless turns this in a factor.

An even MU no matter how you look at it.
 

Death

Noob
KL for sure wins 7-3. Can't corner KL. sub big hitbox so he's suspect to tele 3 and 2 kills him in open space. Too mobile as well. 7-3 for sure.

Who cares about NW. He's shit lol

Sonya wins slightly. Sub can't really corner her when she has meter. Sonya can armor through 212 with full combo. Sonya can bait slides with rings mixed in with standing 2 as a feint. Gets 50% off a blocked slide. Sonya can also turtle sub out as good as sub can turtle Sonya. This mu is 6-4. Sonya's just need to play smart and not d4 all the time

Mileena is 5-5 vs sub too.

Reptile is even. I personally like fighting reptile with sub
 
I'm just going to go ahead and write up why Cage is NOT a 5-5, and touch a little on why I think it's 7-3.

So let's look at midscreen game first. Actually, let's entirely forget the corner in this writeup. This is a match where naked clone is completely valid and thus can be won midscreen and is actually safer to play than in the corner (not that you can't). So with that... Midscreen Cage can either be a moron and throw forceballs to punish Clones on a read (which you can Slide on reaction), or burn a bar on EX Shadow Kick when he sees you Ice Ball while behind a clone. Cage gets a free Force Ball followup if he hits with a kick. Big whoop. Cage doesn't want to kick you anyway because then he still has to get back in and he just wasted a bar.

So to get around clones, good Cage's generally will do one thing (when they're not stupidly trying to jump over them). They time when clone is going to dissapear. If you realize that, you can prepare for it, easily. Back off your clones before they time out, or stand by it as bait and be ready when they come in with your 22.

Now let's look at what people like to argue makes Cage annoying for Sub. His low hitbox. 2 will not hit mid on Cage the majority of the time, but this is not 100%, no matter if he's neutral ducking or crouch blocking. It will hit entirely randomly, based on where he is in his crouching animation. He bobs up and down while crouching and you can catch him on the up.

But that's just an aside. Cage's WILL still try to poke as you 2, and rightfully so. So the obvious answer is D4. We all know that if you hit a standing opponent with D4, 2 is guaranteed. They cannot duck in time to poke you out. But what do you do if Cage is just crouch blocking D4 all day?

Well, there's a couple things. First, something all Subs should know by now. You can't pointblank 224 clone a Cage that is crouch blocking. People say dont 224 a crouching Cage. The clone will not not come out. ... Unless.... and this is just a different strategy from the obvious D4~clone or D4 naked clone.... Blocked D4, no dash, 224~Clone/22~Clone. The pushback on a blocked D4 will allow you a 224~Clone or 22~Clone on a crouch blocking Cage if you do not dash in and will also whiff punish him if he tried to poke you, as well as anti-airing him if he tried to jump after blocking your D4. You win in all scenarios. It is in fact better to use 224 instead of 21. 21 will push you into his poke. You can also try 22~Freeze if you're feeling ballsy. Honestly, I don't believe Cage can do anything against this setup other than spend a bar, EX nut punch being the only worthwhile option, and I'm not even sure that would work. It sure as hell wouldnt if I just naked cloned after the D4. Spaced 224 is one of the main assets in this match.

So there's another thing handy in this matchup against a Cage that loves crouching that no Sub ever wants to talk about. Subs D3. Sub has a solid D3 god dammit. It's only real drawback is it's stubbyness, but that can also be an advantage. It's 7 frames. Only -8 on block, +2 on hit to stand and +9 to crouch... and guess what? If you hit a D3 on a crouching Cage, 2 is guaranteed to hit if he doesn't block. Since you're +9 (i.e. the same startup frames of 2), he cannot poke you even IF the 2 whiffed, but the D3 on crouch hit raises his hitbox enough to allow 2 to hit.

So now let's look at Cages pressure. People get too damn scared of Cage pressure. Sub has great tools to get out. So something I like to do when possible if I'm trying to poke out is use D3, and not D4. Cage's that are on auto-pilot are more likely than not going to to suffer a followup after the D3, because it's fast, good advantage, good recovery and stubby (remember that stubbyness advantage I said earlier?). If you D4, you just screamed at Cage "HEY GUY, IT'S TIME TO BLOCK". The much higher chance for getting damage is a greater reward for poking out of Cage pressure if that's the route you want to take, versus using a poke with only a 1 frame difference that guarantees Cage blocks.

But there's some other things you can do. Next on the list is D1~Clone. This should be obvious. Cage runs into it or you're safe.

But the biggest advantage you have versus Cage pressure? EX Slide. You have armor.... But it's full combo punishable you say? Well okay, but the option forces Cage to make a read. If Cage does 11F1 or EX Forceballs, he's in a 50/50 situation. He has to bait it and block or he's done with his pressure. He cannot bait it with a crossup because you still get out and are full screen.

Let's look at another way to use EX Slide in Cage pressure. Check this out.... take a hit. This works the majority of the time. If you are HIT with F3, F33, F33B3 or straight 21, you can still EX Slide, 3 of which are a guaranteed attempt. Cage is at +3, +4 and +5 on his F3 strings and 0 on naked 21. He can by the numbers stuff your armor of F33B3 with an onpoint D1, but most Cages still F3 attempt.

Another thing Cage might do is F4. If you block the F4, I find that a straight 22 catches Cage most of the time. It's 0 on block with pushback, so he'll either A) Crossup, 22 pulls him out of that B) Go for a lowpoke, in which case just look as you're 22ing to confirm this and block or C) He won't hit confirm it or try to catch you jumping out with a followup standing 1. Standing 1 is 1 frame faster than your standing 2, but he loses frames because he has to dash forward.

So yeah, not a terribly difficult matchup. :D
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
beef_supreme

5-5 Jade
1-9 Kenshi
3-7 Kung Lao (no containment here either, just as with Kitana)
8-2 Sheeva (seriously, just D4... it beats everything but telestomp)

Otherwise, I like it.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Sonya wins slightly. Sub can't really corner her when she has meter. Sonya can armor through 212 with full combo. Sonya can bait slides with rings mixed in with standing 2 as a feint. Gets 50% off a blocked slide. Sonya can also turtle sub out as good as sub can turtle Sonya. This mu is 6-4. Sonya's just need to play smart and not d4 all the time
Agree with Kung Lao... me and you always do. lol

But Sub can corner sonya pretty easily. As Brady always says... if she has a bar and you have 2 or more... she has no bars. She can't zone sub out b/c slide rapes rings. Really, it's a life lead thing and IMO sub can get in just as easy as Sonya can.
 

RYX

BIG PUSHER
You guys said Noob was 3-7 before, now just a 4-6. Mind explaining to me the change of heart here?
 

NB Semi Evil Ryu

Former Sub-Zero of the Midwest (2011 - 2015)
I agree with knoterror in that Cage is 7-3 in Subby Z's favor. I've played this quite a bit in casuals with GGA Dizzy. Once I have the life lead, I can just clone all day and keep my spacing so that if he tries to jump the clone, I anti-air 2 him into the clone or follow it with ice ball if Cage times the jump right so that the clone is gone on his way down.

If you have the patience for it, Cage is pretty free in this MU. And if you do happen to get caught in Cage pressure, you can always ex slide out of it just as long as your read is that Cage will not block low.

Hell, I'm just now realizing that I'm just repeating what knot said. Read that guide well, for he speaks the truth about this MU.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
I agree with knoterror in that Cage is 7-3 in Subby Z's favor. I've played this quite a bit in casuals with GGA Dizzy. Once I have the life lead, I can just clone all day and keep my spacing so that if he tries to jump the clone, I anti-air 2 him into the clone or follow it with ice ball if Cage times the jump right so that the clone is gone on his way down.

If you have the patience for it, Cage is pretty free in this MU. And if you do happen to get caught in Cage pressure, you can always ex slide out of it just as long as your read is that Cage will not block low.

Hell, I'm just now realizing that I'm just repeating what knot said. Read that guide well, for he speaks the truth about this MU.
What's SOT stand for?
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Sub Zero beats cage 6-4 imo, one thing you forgot in your write up knoterror is that if cage gets in once, and gets health lead, no matter if it is 1 percent, sub zero has to chase him, and that is not good for sz. Cage is only going to pressure sz as much as he needs to get his health lead, hitconfirm into a full fwd33b3 string and force sz to come to him. You also simplified cages pressure a lot, at the highest level cage has a thousand different ways to beat you pokes, that are all pretty safe vs sz. And sz has serious probelms when he is cornered, he really has to commit to an ex slide a lot of times because cage can jus walk back and start over Of course the same applies the other way, but imo cage does better getting out of that then the other way around.