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Basing Joker's Offense Off 212

AA25Mamba

Batman, Scarecrow, Bane
Let's get some positive Joker discussion going.

How does everyone feel about basing Joker's offense off the 212 attack string?

I feel as if this should be a staple strategy for Joker users for the following reasons:

1.) As we all know, you can cancel into Rolling laughing Gas for Joker's BNB combos from this string.

2.) The start up for the first hit is 11 frames, and it has decent reach. While this may not be ideal for punishing, a D1 into 212 can lead to some good damage.

3.) 21 has a block advantage of +5 while 212 has a block advantage of 0. Neither of these stings will lead to being punished.

4.) 212 begins the same way as 213. If opponents get comfortable crouch blocking the 212 string, use this to hit overhead for a hard knockdown. Then apply any pressure techniques from hard knockdowns.

5.) This string can easily be hit confirmed or block confirmed. It can also be confirmed off Jump in attacks.

And most importantly

6.) 212 can cancel into a set of close teeth on block.

Now, I know, I know, "Damn, that doesn't mean Joker isn't low tier. Besides, we've already seen this." Well, yea, but let's use our heads for a second here and examine some scenarios.

I believe the 212 string is essential for the options it provides. The combo potential is obvious, but the selling point comes from the options the string provides. Here are a few examples:

A.) You connect with a J2 and go into 212. You can cancel it to MB RLG and combo for 36-40% OR try for a BLOCKABLE reset using D2 after a wallbounce.

B.) You Jump in with J2 and it is blocked. Go into 212 and throw a set of close teeth out as the string ends. Now, your opponent has to make a choice.

Do they counterattack? If so, some attacks will get caught as the teeth explode. If not, pushblock the attack back into the teeth. You now have a wallbounce combo.

Do they jump toward you? If so you can D2 into a far teeth combo. You can meter burn a B3 to still get the wallbounce. You can also pushblock the jump in attack back into the teeth for a wallbounce.

Do they back jump the teeth? If so, retaliate with Bang!, Laughing Gas, or a dash in to continue pressure.

Do they crouch block? If so, Jump in attack, or respond with F3 or meter burn F3.

As you can see, the 212 string has many benefits. While it may not be as damaging as a starter such as 32, it has more options. So, how do the rest of the Joker players feel about the 212 string?
 
D

Deleted member 9158

Guest
The Joker has a lot of untapped potential. I find him kind of difficult to use, but I like to keep him as a pocket character. Cancelling his gun is fun. Gotta' use dem' teeth.
 

laudanum09

Darling
it's good but 323 is +1 and I believe it is not duckable. It has good reach so as a footsie/whiff punish tool it is better.

21 is his best string though for sure. a lot of options.

Some other stuff:

-after blocked 2,1 a f.2,3 is a viable frame trap and beats a lot of d1s. Actually better than following up with another 21 even though f.2 starts up slower.

-after blocked 213 you are at +1 I think. Spacing makes it an almost free b.1 and 3 or flower or whatever. Good frame trap. Ghetto high/low.
 

AA25Mamba

Batman, Scarecrow, Bane
it's good but 323 is +1 and I believe it is not duckable. It has good reach so as a footsie/whiff punish tool it is better.

21 is his best string though for sure. a lot of options.

Some other stuff:

-after blocked 2,1 a f.2,3 is a viable frame trap and beats a lot of d1s. Actually better than following up with another 21 even though f.2 starts up slower.

-after blocked 213 you are at +1 I think. Spacing makes it an almost free b.1 and 3 or flower or whatever. Good frame trap. Ghetto high/low.
Can you get a set of close teeth out after 323?
 

laudanum09

Darling
i dunno but i doubt it. i think when cat figured it out he probably tested with all cancellable strings to see.
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
Yeah i'm basing all my offense off 2,1,2 as well. Using 3,2 strictly for punished.
For characters who can duck the final 2 i mix up with 2,1,3. Otherwise i take the guaranteed teeth pressure or the safe jump off the ex rlg.

For combos i've been taking the ghetto 2 acid flower reset. If it hits thats 75%. If its blocked i get maintain my offence. Really important imo for guys with good wake ups. Joker has a hard time with ranged punishes anyway.
Just gotta perfect my execution on the d2 teeth loop so i dont lose out on as much damage.
 

AA25Mamba

Batman, Scarecrow, Bane
i dunno but i doubt it. i think when cat figured it out he probably tested with all cancellable strings to see.
You can cancel after the first stab of the last 3, but you can't block a reversal attack after throwing teeth, so that takes away the teeth setups.

What reset are you referring to, Gilbagz ?

Another thing to consider is the mixups you can create from 212 and 213. I'm going to put up a video tomorrow in the original post to show some I've come up with and other strategies I use from 212.
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
You can cancel after the first stab of the last 3, but you can't block a reversal attack after throwing teeth, so that takes away the teeth setups.

What reset are you referring to, Gilbagz ?

Another thing to consider is the mixups you can create from 212 and 213. I'm going to put up a video tomorrow in the original post to show some I've come up with and other strategies I use from 212.
I'm talking about the 2 acid flower gimmick reset that you can block.

My current bnb is w/e into ex rlg, d2 far teeth, j2 far teeth.

From this point you can either take your guaranteed 3 acid flower into 3,2 acid flower for close to 45%. Or you can drop that ender or go for the blockable 2 acid flower. If the 2 acid flower hits you get an extra 30% on the end of your 40% for 70%+. Or if they block it you, you get a 'guaranteed' ji2 to continue 2,1,2 pressure. I say 'guaranteed' cuz I have been hit out by a 7f frame jab to aa, but I think I was just late on the timing. With 2 acid flower reset, you maintain pressure at the very least cuz b+1 is guaranteed and they have to respect it. Sorta allows joker to maintain continuous offence. Helps alot for the green lantern match up cuz finishing the combo normally messes you cuz you are at Lantern's ideal range where he can aa lift you on reaction to an attempted j3.

As for 2,1,2/2,1,3 stuff. I feel its character specific. I rekon you should only use 2,1,3 against characters who can duck the final 2. Otherwise you might as well take your mix ups off the 2,1,2. Also 2,1,3 can be blown up by armour cuz the the second hit of 2,(1) whiffs on certain characters(although they need to make that read). In general 2,1,2, is the much safer string. You only need to use 2,1,3 if they can duck the final 2. Once you get them to respect that, you can run 2,1,2 mix ups. Sorta reminds me of sub-zero's 2,1,2 string, You could armour out, but you could 2,1,4 to keep them honest to open up the 2,1,2 option. And since chip in this game is worth jack, 2,1 into 2,1,2 isnt too viable cuz of the push pack. 2,1 is +5 but it only really helps to set up whiff punishes with f+2,3 like laudanum09 mentioned.

Just my view on joker right now. Could be really wrong.

Also as an extension to what someone else posted. I think our go to ender now for hard knockdowns (if you can't reliably do the d2 teeth j2 combo) is f+2,1. The hard knockdown is longer than sweep and it does more damage.
Been running in on green lantern and it grants enough advantage that you can dash and jump over Lantern on wake up, causing his lift to whiff.
 

AA25Mamba

Batman, Scarecrow, Bane
I've been using F21 as well. It's weird in that it lands them on their face. But you're right, it seems to give a half second to a full second longer to set something up as they're on the ground.

I need to get that Far teeth, J2, far teeth down. I use D2, far teeth, flower as it seems easier to do online. Does the J2 into far teeth leave Joker close?

I know what you mean. The fact that the one hit whiffs could be a deal breaker. But, honestly, unless you're in high level tournament play, the 212 string is going to work. I run into the same problem with Batman where his moves can be poked out of. The difference is you can have the bats to cover the holes in the strings. Joker is different in that you need to have opponents to respect the 213, as you said.
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
I've been using F21 as well. It's weird in that it lands them on their face. But you're right, it seems to give a half second to a full second longer to set something up as they're on the ground.

I need to get that Far teeth, J2, far teeth down. I use D2, far teeth, flower as it seems easier to do online. Does the J2 into far teeth leave Joker close?

I know what you mean. The fact that the one hit whiffs could be a deal breaker. But, honestly, unless you're in high level tournament play, the 212 string is going to work. I run into the same problem with Batman where his moves can be poked out of. The difference is you can have the bats to cover the holes in the strings. Joker is different in that you need to have opponents to respect the 213, as you said.
Yeah f+2,1 is for sure our go to ender for the hard knockdown. Might not even need it with the 2 acid flower reset though.

I can't hit the combo online, timing is already ridiculous offline. Online is a deathwish if you try it lol. As for the j2 into far teeth. I use far teeth cuz otherwise they don't fall onto the teeth after 2 acid flower. Close teeth is fine if you 3 acid flower, but that doesn't reset the combo. Good if you want damage, but if you're going for the continuous pressure you can't do close teeth otherwise the teeth completely whiff and they are out.

I think it just adds an extra mind game anyway. 2,1,3 is a good string as well. On block its +1 so you get b1 frame traps against some characters. And on hit its like +30 or something. You get a guaranteed cross over against a lot of the cast.

Edit:
These are my current bnb's

Round Finishers
1,1 mb-rlg, b3, d2 teeth, ji2, teeth, 3 acid flower, 3,2(1 hit) acid flower – 39%
f+2,3 mb-rlg b3, d2 teeth, ji2, teeth, 3 acid flower, 3,2(1 hit) acid flower – 39%
2,1 (both hit) mb-rlg, b3, d2 teeth, ji2, teeth, 3 acid flower, 3,2(1 hit) acid flower – 40%
3,2 (both hit) mb-rlg, b3, d2 teeth, ji2, teeth, 3 acid flower, 3,2(1 hit) acid flower – 45%

Potential Reset/Continuous Pressure
1,1 mb-rlg, b3, d2 teeth, ji2, far teeth, 2 acid flower [b3, j3, 3,2 acid flower] - 37%+[37%]
f+2,3 mb-rlg b3, d2 teeth, ji2, far teeth, 2 acid flower [b3, j3, 3,2 acid flower] – 37%+[37%]
2,1 (both hit) mb-rlg, b3, d2 teeth, ji2, far teeth, 2 acid flower [b3, j3, 3,2 acid flower] – 38%+[37%]
3,2 (both hit) mb-rlg, b3, d2 teeth, ji2, far teeth, 2 acid flower, [b3, j3, 3,2 acid flower] – 40%+[37%]

I'm not sure if you can confirm the teeth hit. Otherwise you might need to swap the reset ender if you wanna play safer. If you can confirm, you probably won't be able to hit the j3, so by replacing it by j2 the damage drops to like 34%
 

Jarc

Uh huh, we get it, yup, yeah, you too.
The second hit of 21 wiffs against a lot of the cast on crouch, as does 212's last hit. It is not a reliable bnb string versus everyone.

I'll post a graphic of who it hits & who it wiffs against tomorrow, if it'd benefit anyone.
 

ThaShiveGeek

Est In Harvey 1989
The second hit of 21 wiffs against a lot of the cast on crouch, as does 212's last hit. It is not a reliable bnb string versus everyone.

I'll post a graphic of who it hits & who it wiffs against tomorrow, if it'd benefit anyone.
It would benefit me.
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
The second hit of 21 wiffs against a lot of the cast on crouch, as does 212's last hit. It is not a reliable bnb string versus everyone.

I'll post a graphic of who it hits & who it wiffs against tomorrow, if it'd benefit anyone.
Cat made a vid showing who it whiffs on already btw lol.
heres the list
o Second 1 whiffs on: Cyborg, Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl, Green Lantern, Lobo
o Final 2 whiffs on: Green arrow, Joker, Grundy, Deathstroke, Aquaman, Ares, Killerfrost, Shazam, Black Adam
There are options for if the final 2 whiffs though.
And if the second one whiffs it shouldn't matter unless they have a parry, and looking at the list its only Wonderwoman. Super's could probably interrupt too. You can't interrupt with amour unless they you do 2,1,3. The gap isn't big enough.
 

laudanum09

Darling
Don't put too much into these string gap punishes unless you're doing something like f.2,3 on block.

on paper its not good but people aren't going to have specific punishes for this as much as you'd think. the gap is so small for the punish until the last 2 in 212 or the 3 in 213 comes out that it's not a big deal. condition high blocks with 213 and keep up the offense with 212.

ideally NRS would patch the game so mids are actual mids universally. I personally hate lack of consistency and character specific combos in fighting games and this is plagued with it.
 

laudanum09

Darling
some mids are true mid and some are special mids. there is no mistake.
This game has special mids? That's stupid. Is this inherited from MK? What's the development reasoning behind 'special mids'? I know! We designed a string and now the hitboxes flail everywhere inconsistently so we couldn't be bothered to adjust and tweak for each character so that they hit universally...it's nice way of adding 'charm' to the engine!

Really though just because there are counters and counter-counters to stuff like 212 doesnt mean it was meticulously planned that way, so as far as I'm concerned its just bad game design unless there's some 'special' super subtle balance based reason that the second 1 whiffs on Cyborg and not Superman. It's akin though not nearly as bad as the character specific unblockables discovered in SSF4AE late in the game.

Lack of consistency in fighting games=huge turn off for competitively minded players.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
This game has special mids? That's stupid. Is this inherited from MK? What's the development reasoning behind 'special mids'? I know! We designed a string and now the hitboxes flail everywhere inconsistently so we couldn't be bothered to adjust and tweak for each character so that they hit universally...it's nice way of adding 'charm' to the engine!

Really though just because there are counters and counter-counters to stuff like 212 doesnt mean it was meticulously planned that way, so as far as I'm concerned its just bad game design unless there's some 'special' super subtle balance based reason that the second 1 whiffs on Cyborg and not Superman. It's akin though not nearly as bad as the character specific unblockables discovered in SSF4AE late in the game.

Lack of consistency in fighting games=huge turn off for competitively minded players.
Since there is no neutral crouch IDK why special mids are in, probably because of the engine. Then again, the AI can neutral crouch.
 

laudanum09

Darling
It happens in games, I just wish they'd make stuff more consistent.

On the plus side, there is a metagame, a stupid one, made possible over this stuff. 212 whiffs? use 213 to condition them to block high, 21 and b.1 3 frame trap, 213 and then frame trap etc.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
I'm leaning towards similar strategies right now, still waiting to test it against my group of friends back home. 3,2 is a great string for combo starting, but the 2,1,2 string is way more amazing for mixup based on most of the points you have all raised here. I mentioned the 2,1,2 gun dash cancel in another thread. It is great to do on hit because you can follow up with far teeth and a ji3 or something on the ground to keep the pressure on AND it is safe on block against against most potential followups (I tested against GLs 10f lift and you can get a d1 in first). So that is another good piece of tech to throw in the mix. So you have teeth, finish with 3 for an overhead, combo into RLG BnBs (albeit less damage than 3,2 to start, still solid for the mixup purposes), this dash cancel idea off the gun, flowering for some space, the options are plenty. Now all we need is a trait...
 

Dr Jackal

Dr__Jackal
-after blocked 2,1 a f.2,3 is a viable frame trap and beats a lot of d1s. Actually better than following up with another 21 even though f.2 starts up slower.
Absolutely ok with that.