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Basically what Shao Kahn is reduced to doing since his strings are bad.

BookBurning

Voidwards
You should bitch about it because it's risky as hell and all of the top tiers in this game doesn't have to worry about it.
Maybe when I start losing.

I main EB, Frost, and Kahn. When I switch between say EB and Shao Kahn, the gap in advantage is so severe it's not even funny. I still feel like I can get somewhere, but it's nowhere near the same ballpark. I'm not saying a very good player can't get far in a tourney with Kahn, it's just definitely not going to be as easy.
I can agree that Erron Black is some bullshit, but he's going to get inevitable nerfs. The game is going to evolve slowly but I don't think the answer is to just start throwing buffs out to everyone. The problem is that most of the characters in this game are forced to play a footsy based game while Erron Black is playing something else.
 

ty lewis

Noob
The only way a Shao Kahn can make it in a tournament is If they play against people that don't know the match up or play just I did against this Kitana online.

His strings are just not worth doing as it's far too risky to throw them out for a crouching uppercut to KB you. You literally have to ignore over half of his movelist just in order to do good against good players.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
Premium Supporter
Alot of characters in this game lack reliable safe mid strings and overheads etc. People just don't know how to make a character work for them, all they want is free pressure constantly or stupid 50/50s.

Shao Khan has great range with decent speed on his normals relative for their range for good footsy based play. Maybe if people who play NRS games knew how to space well.
Cons:

Almost all of his strings have gaps.

He is -f at everything, normals and specials.

His down pokes hit adv suck compared to the majority of the cast.

His "best: string (f3, 4, 1+3) is a lot of -f on block on each part. f3 is -8f on block which means he cannot stagger to either throws or down pokes.

The second hit after f3 (4) is -7f on block which means he cannot do the above i wrote, PLUS , it can be fblocked to a full combo punish.

His third hit of f3,4 is -16f on block. You get the jist. If f3 didnt have a 10f startup, it would literally be the worst string in the game probably.

His buffs cannot be activated safely at all. Only way to apply the dark priest buff is by hitting the opponent completely fullscreen and even then its not reliable.

His "second best" normal, f2 is a 21f high. Enough said.

His mixups are gimmicky as hell, and even then the reward is useless, plus they can be punished or interrupted with a full combo punish.

The only solid mid attack he has is b2 which is a one hitting normal into specials (Luke Skywalker jedi skills there) and on block is -7f.

The requirements for his KB are ridiculous, probably second to JC's KB.

Both of his variations are fucked up in terms of dividing his skill set.

These are the cons that come to mind atm, there could be a couple more.

Pros:

Really good s1.

Godlike hop 2.

Godlike d2.

Godlike b4.

Thats Shao Kahn. 3 universal normals. Now take what i wrote you into account and compare him to the rest of the cast.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
I really dont wanna hear that from a person who has SZ as their avatar. Now go and make me some ice.
I play shao kahn dummy
I confirm off f3 all the time. If you cannot integrate the threat of checking someone with a 10 frame mid into full corner carry combo at any time then your analysis of the character is invalid. He is not a 3 button character, in fact he is the opposite, so its no wonder people think he is bad, they dont even know what he is.
 

BookBurning

Voidwards
Cons:

Almost all of his strings have gaps.

He is -f at everything, normals and specials.

His down pokes hit adv suck compared to the majority of the cast.

His "best: string (f3, 4, 1+3) is a lot of -f on block on each part. f3 is -8f on block which means he cannot stagger to either throws or down pokes.

The second hit after f3 (4) is -7f on block which means he cannot do the above i wrote, PLUS , it can be fblocked to a full combo punish.

His third hit of f3,4 is -16f on block. You get the jist. If f3 didnt have a 10f startup, it would literally be the worst string in the game probably.

His buffs cannot be activated safely at all. Only way to apply the dark priest buff is by hitting the opponent completely fullscreen and even then its not reliable.

His "second best" normal, f2 is a 21f high. Enough said.

His mixups are gimmicky as hell, and even then the reward is useless, plus they can be punished or interrupted with a full combo punish.

The only solid mid attack he has is b2 which is a one hitting normal into specials (Luke Skywalker jedi skills there) and on block is -7f.

The requirements for his KB are ridiculous, probably second to JC's KB.

Both of his variations are fucked up in terms of dividing his skill set.

These are the cons that come to mind atm, there could be a couple more.

Pros:

Really good s1.

Godlike hop 2.

Godlike d2.

Godlike b4.

Thats Shao Kahn. 3 universal normals. Now take what i wrote you into account and compare him to the rest of the cast.
Again, his normal frames don't equate his normals being good or bad, if they had good frame advantage, then sure but why the hell would you be standing next to someone pressuring hard anyways when you got a long ass hammer. Shao should be played as a whiff punisher.
 

ty lewis

Noob
Cons:

Almost all of his strings have gaps.

He is -f at everything, normals and specials.

His down pokes hit adv suck compared to the majority of the cast.

His "best: string (f3, 4, 1+3) is a lot of -f on block on each part. f3 is -8f on block which means he cannot stagger to either throws or down pokes.

The second hit after f3 (4) is -7f on block which means he cannot do the above i wrote, PLUS , it can be fblocked to a full combo punish.

His third hit of f3,4 is -16f on block. You get the jist. If f3 didnt have a 10f startup, it would literally be the worst string in the game probably.

His buffs cannot be activated safely at all. Only way to apply the dark priest buff is by hitting the opponent completely fullscreen and even then its not reliable.

His "second best" normal, f2 is a 21f high. Enough said.

His mixups are gimmicky as hell, and even then the reward is useless, plus they can be punished or interrupted with a full combo punish.

The only solid mid attack he has is b2 which is a one hitting normal into specials (Luke Skywalker jedi skills there) and on block is -7f.

The requirements for his KB are ridiculous, probably second to JC's KB.

Both of his variations are fucked up in terms of dividing his skill set.

These are the cons that come to mind atm, there could be a couple more.

Pros:

Really good s1.

Godlike hop 2.

Godlike d2.

Godlike b4.

Thats Shao Kahn. 3 universal normals. Now take what i wrote you into account and compare him to the rest of the cast.
Missed his hop overhead. Pretty sure it's one of the best.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
Premium Supporter
I play shao kahn dummy
I confirm off f3 all the time. If you cannot integrate the threat of checking someone with a 10 frame mid into full corner carry combo at any time then your analysis of the character is invalid. He is not a 3 button character, in fact he is the opposite, so its no wonder people think he is bad, they dont even know what he is.
Time will tell where SK stands in the tier list. If you confirm f3 into shoulder all the time as you claim then EVO is yours dummy. Read my above post about his cons and pros and tell me where you disagree then with FACTS not jedi 1hit confirming bs.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
Premium Supporter
Again, his normal frames don't equate his normals being good or bad, if they had good frame advantage, then sure but why the hell would you be standing next to someone pressuring hard anyways when you got a long ass hammer. Shao should be played as a whiff punisher.
The only people SK can whiff punish are the people who dont know the MU and are pressing buttons like idiots. Same thing was with Goro in MKX and Darkseid in IGAU 2. Against someone who knows how to counter SK, you cant whiff punish something if you dont have the tools to do so. You can check him with down pokes and sweeps yes, but thats it.
 

BookBurning

Voidwards
The only people SK can whiff punish are the people who dont know the MU and are pressing buttons like idiots. Same thing was with Goro in MKX and Darkseid in IGAU 2. Against someone who knows how to counter SK, you cant whiff punish something if you dont have the tools to do so. You can check him with down pokes and sweeps yes, but thats it.
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on SK and I'm also always open to being wrong. But this game feels more in lieu with cautious approaches to neutral than any other MK game and I don't see not having alot of plus frame mids or alot of highs as being a detriment. Characters like Erron Black will be weeded out but I think Shao Khan has pretty beastly normals tbh, not because of their frame data per say but because of their presence on screen, not to mention on some conversions he hits like a truck.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
Premium Supporter
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on SK and I'm also always open to being wrong. But this game feels more in lieu with cautious approaches to neutral than any other MK game and I don't see not having alot of plus frame mids or alot of highs as being a detriment. Characters like Erron Black will be weeded out but I think Shao Khan has pretty beastly normals tbh, not because of their frame data per say but because of their presence on screen, not to mention on some conversions he hits like a truck.
I agree with you regarding that MK11 is a heavily footsied game. Now, dont get me wrong i love the game and yes, SK does hit like a truck. No one denied that.

Who ever said anything about SK needing plus frames? All i asked was why is he so unsafe on block and has gaps in everything unlike the rest of the roster?

There are other characters who are also great whiff punishers and dont have the issues SK has atm.

Prime examples are SZ, Geras, LK , Johnny Cage, Sonya, Cassie, Jax, Jaquie, Noob Saibot etc.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
You should bitch about it because it's risky as hell and all of the top tiers in this game doesn't have to worry about it.
With the dial system how I understand confirming off one hit basically amounts to not confirming heh. You just hope the one hit hits and so your special cancel hits and isn't blocked. So yeah I see it as really really risky.

When I play Shao Khan I don't really do any combos, and I can still sometimes beat folks who do 10 hit combos with their character...they just come up short in other aspects of general play I suppose. Playing Shao I feel hesitant to try using his strings, I expect other folks' to engulf them or that they will just duck. If only Shao could combo off his F4 for example.

I rely on a lot on spacing, D1 throws, key uppercuts, and manual mixup's like with his F4 and hop overhead stuff mixed with D1 throws. I call it like manual mixup's, vs. the dial mixup's.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
With the dial system how I understand confirming off one hit basically amounts to not confirming heh. You just hope the one hit hits and so your special cancel hits and isn't blocked. So yeah I see it as really really risky.

When I play Shao Khan I don't really do any combos, and I can still sometimes beat folks who do 10 hit combos with their character...they just come up short in other aspects of general play I suppose. Playing Shao I feel hesitant to try using his strings, I expect other folks' to engulf them or that they will just duck. If only Shao could combo off his F4 for example.

I rely on a lot on spacing, D1 throws, key uppercuts, and manual mixup's like with his F4 and hop overhead stuff mixed with D1 throws. I call it like manual mixup's, vs. the dial mixup's.
Normally you cannot confirm off one hit because of what you mentioned. The reason it works with Shao Kahns F3 is because there is a much longer cancel window than other normals so you can buffer the shoulder input. Takes practice but very doable in time
 

XxTheGoblinX

Supreme
Im tired of people talkin like this character cant win. I guarantee you every person crying about how bad he is never took the time to go in the lab and just learn MUs. Because if they did they would realize how decent he is as a character. Sure he has his weakness, but the fact that he has all those weaknesses and can still win a whole tournament says alot.

When the patches come we all know whose getting nerfed and it aint gonna be Shao Kahn. Now can we please do something productive like outline Match ups so we can all get better with this character?
 

BunLantern

Long live b13 minigun
His KBs are the thing I really have a problem with. He’s gotta be bottom 5 in KB requirements, some of them are ridiculous and most are impractical at best. Compared to characters like Erron, Sub, Scorpion and Liu Kang who just seem to get them for free.
 
I main EB, Frost, and Kahn. When I switch between say EB and Shao Kahn, the gap in advantage is so severe it's not even funny. I still feel like I can get somewhere, but it's nowhere near the same ballpark. I'm not saying a very good player can't get far in a tourney with Kahn, it's just definitely not going to be as easy.
I feel the same, I'm co-maining Noob, Shao and Kollector right now (kinda in a character crisis even though Shao is my all time fave character).

The advantage gap between Noob and Shao is also very distinct. The amount of conditioning options, and useful strings Noob has brings far more exciting gameplay by comparison, and it is far harder to take games with Shao - even though I really enjoy him and have character loyalty to the big man. Even Kollector, who overall isn't that great in the current state, still has more dirt and more conditioning tools than Shao, and is a lot of fun for it.

While he's certainly not as bad as say Kotal (was just as excited for Kotal's return as Shao's, I originally planned on maining both Kahns but found Kotal so dry I had to drop him), SK definitely needs some love to bring a bit more spice to the table. Hopefully both the Kahns get what they need...
 

ty lewis

Noob


rofl... yeah Semi-Evil Ryu is "terrible".... .. .
Did you watch that match? Because that was straight up dumb. That Sub-Zero looked free. Who the fuck down jabs after landing a +4 on block move?

He literally got hit by Shao Kahn's F2 throughout the matches which is one of his worst moves. How can you defend him?

Im tired of people talkin like this character cant win. I guarantee you every person crying about how bad he is never took the time to go in the lab and just learn MUs. Because if they did they would realize how decent he is as a character. Sure he has his weakness, but the fact that he has all those weaknesses and can still win a whole tournament says alot.

When the patches come we all know whose getting nerfed and it aint gonna be Shao Kahn. Now can we please do something productive like outline Match ups so we can all get better with this character?
Of course it's possible to win but people are delusional if they don't think he isn't one of if not the weakest character in this game.

Knowing matchups helps a ton but that
doesn't fix the characters huge list of issues.
 

BookBurning

Voidwards
Looks at a tournament level player who got 2nd place at a tournament playing Sub Zero and calls him terrible. Uh okay.

Maybe when you guys get your buffs you can almost take a round off of him!
 

ty lewis

Noob
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on SK and I'm also always open to being wrong. But this game feels more in lieu with cautious approaches to neutral than any other MK game and I don't see not having alot of plus frame mids or alot of highs as being a detriment. Characters like Erron Black will be weeded out but I think Shao Khan has pretty beastly normals tbh, not because of their frame data per say but because of their presence on screen, not to mention on some conversions he hits like a truck.
What your saying would be true if Shao Kahn didn't have high normals that whiff even on crouch blocking. This makes literally all of those strings practically unusable and against someone that knows the matchup against Shao Kahn he will lose easily if he tries to do any of them.

That's the reason why i played the way I did in the video. Because If I try to go for any of his high strings I'm getting punished for it and I don't have the overheads to make him block high.

Now he is still one of if not the best whiff punishers in the game but that playstyle cannot work If your opponent knows how Shao Kahn is suppose to be played.
Looks at a tournament level player who got 2nd place at a tournament playing Sub Zero and calls him terrible. Uh okay.

Maybe when you guys get your buffs you can almost take a round off of him!
Pfft. If he played like this against a Shao Kahn that overused F2 in a set he's gonna be free. I bet his ass is labbing against Shao Kahn now.

The guy played horribly and that's why he got stomped. No way should Shao Kahn win that matchup with the way he played against Sub-Zero who is considered to be one of the best characters in the game. Re-watch that match and look at all the mistakes he made. That's why he lost. He kept pressing buttons when he shouldn't have.
 

ty lewis

Noob
I'm actually baffled the Shao Kahn player won the tournament playing like That. Especially against a Sub-Zero. People need to learn how to stop pressing buttons and maybe you won't get hit as often.

Seriously though. If you're gonna post a grand finals match make sure it's one with both players that know what they are doing. This is obviously a low level tournament with no significant player that knows the game. Get Tom Brady in there or Forever king. Two players that actually know the pros and cons of Sub-Zero and Shao Kahn and then we can talk.

As for that match though? If you thought it was legit then you got no clue on how both characters are suppose to be played.
 
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What your saying would be true if Shao Kahn didn't have high normals that whiff even on crouch blocking. This makes literally all of those strings practically unusable and against someone that knows the matchup against Shao Kahn he will lose easily if he tries to do any of them.

... Now he is still one of if not the best whiff punishers in the game but that playstyle cannot work If your opponent knows how Shao Kahn is suppose to be played.


...Pfft. If he played like this against a Shao Kahn that overused F2 in a set he's gonna be free. I bet his ass is labbing against Shao Kahn now.
Sorry to paraphrase, but agreed especially on these points. That SZ clearly did not know the MU.

Playing the whiff punish game only gets you so many games before a good opponent adapts and realises SK is a skin deep character sitting at mid range. Once they realise this and you spam another high, you're getting blown up. Once they realise they can sting you with a d2 during up hammer, you're getting blown up. No more fake pressure for you. Then you're forced into the b2, f3, b4, hop 2, etc game and your list of options has shrunk, trying to squeeze a combo out of a miracle hit confirm /sigh

He's still fun, but yeah, agree with you.
 
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