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Base stats should be equal

Lokheit

Noob
With the game release around the corner there is a topic that everyone is overlooking and with every new build I see, the problem is still there.

As you know there are 4 base stats that can be improved by gear (this discussion is not focused on gear don't worry) but the thing is, each character has different initial stats in every build that I've seen so far. Why is this a problem?

- One of the stats modifies damage done, another modifies damage received. If these 2 stats aren't universal without gear, then making accurate combo lists with damage numbers is impossible. You can always test against a character with 1000 defense, but the numbers will change against every opponent.

- Many players are still referencing to combo damage as % when this is no longer true. For example Poison Ivy has 1250 health and Swamp Thing 1050, so 50 damage isn't the same % of health for each one (and that's without considering that with different defensive values the same combo won't deal the same damage against each one).

- Increased base offensive stats are "detrimental for balance" and "faked". What I mean with this is, the damage that your character does depends on its offensive stats AND each move individual base damage, so you can have a character with a gazillion extra points on one of the offensive stats but then his move's damage nerfed into the ground and his overal damage will be equal to characters with lower offensive stats, while Defense and Health are always a positive. This also means that characters with lower offensive values will benefit from offensive gear a lot more than those with higher vanilla offensive values.

- This is more a knock against how the stats work in general but I wanted to get it out too: Defensive stats work together (reducing incoming damage makes every extra health point more valuable) while offensive stats are split (you have to increase normal attack damage and ability damage separately). This make stats investments, be it from extra vanilla stats or from gear, much more valuable when spent on defensive stats as they're better optimized. Not to mention that better players should invest on defensive values as increasing the match duration reduces the effect of luck which a worse opponent is relying on.



So basically I'm asking for all characters to have equal vanilla stat lines on release for the sake of both game balance and the community being able to properly test characters and their combos. I know games like Street Fighter have characters with different amounts of health but we have 4 stats here which can be a chaotic mess.

The gear system can be good to keep players attached (the OCD in me won't rest until I complete the collection for my favorite characters) but as I explained there are flaws to how those stats work that shouldn't be spilled over the vanilla functionality of each character for the sake of a better and more balanced experience.
 

SneakyTortoise

Official Master of Salt
Not going to address the additional gear stat thing here, because I have no interest in it.

But, regarding the base health stat - no, it's fine for characters to have different starting health values. It doesn't affect anything about combos, you can just compare the combos by HPs rather than %s for working out what your BNBs and optimal punishes are
 

Lokheit

Noob
Not going to address the additional gear stat thing here, because I have no interest in it.

But, regarding the base health stat - no, it's fine for characters to have different starting health values. It doesn't affect anything about combos, you can just compare the combos by HPs rather than %s for working out what your BNBs and optimal punishes are
The whole point isn't about different health values (and while health doesn't affect BnB numbers, defense does), it's about the way the 4 stats work as a system having flaws and those flaws being spilled over vanilla stats.

I don't care about gear being flawed as I only like it for the looks and the extra moves, but I don't like that flaws from a system made for casual fun can have an effect over vanilla characters. Health is probably the least damaging one and as I said games like SF have it and if I had to leave just 1 of them, it would be health, but the fact that the defensive stats work together make characters with higher defense and health better optimized than characters with higher offense and the offensive stats being different accross the cast will make balancing specific numbers problematic

"Character A has less defense and health because he has better offensive stats, but that's faked because now we're balancing the damage from his moves and toning everything down so now the damage is normalized and the defensive stats are still lower than average while his higher offensive stats mean nothing".
 
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Vithar

Evil but Honest!
Pardon my ignorance but ''characters start with different hp'' without any items?
Meaning that in tournaments(without gear scale) we will still have ''Street Fighter'' type of ''Hearth'' where some have ''more'' than others?
 

Lokheit

Noob
Pardon my ignorance but ''characters start with different hp'' without any items?
Meaning that in tournaments(without gear scale) we will still have ''Street Fighter'' type of ''Hearth'' where some have ''more'' than others?
Yup, and the same for other stats, that's why most of the time the numbers shown during streams aren't as round as the ones you see in previous games as characters have different attack and defense values too without any gear on.
 
If not you could do those bnbs on the char with the highest def/health/ and the lowest one. Then compare. Or see how many characters have the same or similar health and then do the bnbs on one ,
 

Shaikhuzzaman

magicmeerkatman
With the game release around the corner there is a topic that everyone is overlooking and with every new build I see, the problem is still there.

As you know there are 4 base stats that can be improved by gear (this discussion is not focused on gear don't worry) but the thing is, each character has different initial stats in every build that I've seen so far. Why is this a problem?

- One of the stats modifies damage done, another modifies damage received. If these 2 stats aren't universal without gear, then making accurate combo lists with damage numbers is impossible. You can always test against a character with 1000 defense, but the numbers will change against every opponent.

- Many players are still referencing to combo damage as % when this is no longer true. For example Poison Ivy has 1250 health and Swamp Thing 1050, so 50 damage isn't the same % of health for each one (and that's without considering that with different defensive values the same combo won't deal the same damage against each one).

- Increased base offensive stats are "detrimental for balance" and "faked". What I mean with this is, the damage that your character does depends on its offensive stats AND each move individual base damage, so you can have a character with a gazillion extra points on one of the offensive stats but then his move's damage nerfed into the ground and his overal damage will be equal to characters with lower offensive stats, while Defense and Health are always a positive. This also means that characters with lower offensive values will benefit from offensive gear a lot more than those with higher vanilla offensive values.

- This is more a knock against how the stats work in general but I wanted to get it out too: Defensive stats work together (reducing incoming damage makes every extra health point more valuable) while offensive stats are split (you have to increase normal attack damage and ability damage separately). This make stats investments, be it from extra vanilla stats or from gear, much more valuable when spent on defensive stats as they're better optimized. Not to mention that better players should invest on defensive values as increasing the match duration reduces the effect of luck which a worse opponent is relying on.



So basically I'm asking for all characters to have equal vanilla stat lines on release for the sake of both game balance and the community being able to properly test characters and their combos. I know games like Street Fighter have characters with different amounts of health but we have 4 stats here which can be a chaotic mess.

The gear system can be good to keep players attached (the OCD in me won't rest until I complete the collection for my favorite characters) but as I explained there are flaws to how those stats work that shouldn't be spilled over the vanilla functionality of each character for the sake of a better and more balanced experience.
Are you telling me catwoman is just as beefy as darkseid?
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
It has nothing to do with "how beefy someone is" or anything like that. There's stamina (aka HP) and each character has a set amount of it. It's for balance purposes.

So in the case of Poison Ivy and Swamp Thing, it looks like she can take more hits than he can. Now if they are doing the stamina based on how most other fighters do it, then all that means is Swamp Thing has more tools than she does, so to compensate with that, he takes more damage than most.

Anyone who's played games like marvel and Street fighter can see that. Look at characters like Seth and Phoenix. Both very powerful characters that have literally every tool in the game, but they can't take a hit at all, especially Phoenix.

It also doesn't matter about size or gender. Females have had higher stamina than males before. It's very common
 

Lokheit

Noob
It has nothing to do with "how beefy someone is" or anything like that. There's stamina (aka HP) and each character has a set amount of it. It's for balance purposes.

So in the case of Poison Ivy and Swamp Thing, it looks like she can take more hits than he can. Now if they are doing the stamina based on how most other fighters do it, then all that means is Swamp Thing has more tools than she does, so to compensate with that, he takes more damage than most.

Anyone who's played games like marvel and Street fighter can see that. Look at characters like Seth and Phoenix. Both very powerful characters that have literally every tool in the game, but they can't take a hit at all, especially Phoenix.

It also doesn't matter about size or gender. Females have had higher stamina than males before. It's very common
That last response was on a joking tone I understand all that.
 
I've always disliked different HP values as base states for characters in every fighting game.

not always, but pretty often it seems to be an overused balancing crutch.

"Give the really good characters small health, give the really shit characters mucho health". It's much easier to push a slider back and forth than to actually handle character balance- hence it seems to be such a crutch
 

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
This is a sailed ship at this point. It's like a lot of things where complexity makes things more work and harder to puzzle in the name of fidelity control. It will make what is optimal harder to discover and communicate.

Percentages are out, and the game never presents damage that way, so anyone talking that way isn't going to have useful information in the context of transferable combo damage information. (I wish we additionally had access to percentage calculations , but that's for other things and more related to gear battles).

I'm thinking the competitive community will just have to figure out a base line to work off of when targeting damage information. Certain characters that all have the same defensive stat interplay, and don't have any major hitbox abnormalities. You had AFK Joker, maybe now you have PBJ points (Punching Bag Joker damage points). It's not as simple.

This is the I2 situation. Everyone can find a way to work with it or be mad at it, but that's a pretty fundamental change to make this late in the development. If it ends up being impossibly difficult to overcome then voicing it may impact the next game, but I think you are kind of stuck with the variables in this one.
 
Yup, and the same for other stats, that's why most of the time the numbers shown during streams aren't as round as the ones you see in previous games as characters have different attack and defense values too without any gear on.
Well the attack values being different is irrelevant. Every characters moves are going to do different damage regardless, the defense is just gonna be %damage reduction so it won't be that difficult to just know hey this combo does 360 dmg and swamp this has 15% reduction so it's 306 dmg vs him. I think it's fine as is but could understand why people want it to be simpler.
 

Azarashi Elder

Fut-SEAS....OF BLOOD!
I've always disliked different HP values as base states for characters in every fighting game.

not always, but pretty often it seems to be an overused balancing crutch.

"Give the really good characters small health, give the really shit characters mucho health". It's much easier to push a slider back and forth than to actually handle character balance- hence it seems to be such a crutch
That's a massive oversimplification at best. Characters are very complex things in themselves. We're talking about different ranges, speeds, jump archs, hurtboxes, combo potential, anti-air ability, pokes, strings, special moves, damage output and yes, health.

Those are a lot of knobs to turn, and I doubt that normalizing heath across the board is going to do anything else than break the game in half.

I wasn't there in the room when the game was conceived, designed and planned, so I have no idea how to balance it. And I highly doubt any of you do either. Once you guys get the game in your hands, and you've played it a long while, you'll get used to the different HP values and adjust your gameplay accordingly.

As far as I'm concerned, that's all that should happen. Play. Adjust. Get used to it. You can play armchair developer all you like, but imho that's nothing but a big waste of time.
 

Lokheit

Noob
This is a sailed ship at this point. It's like a lot of things where complexity makes things more work and harder to puzzle in the name of fidelity control. It will make what is optimal harder to discover and communicate.

Percentages are out, and the game never presents damage that way, so anyone talking that way isn't going to have useful information in the context of transferable combo damage information. (I wish we additionally had access to percentage calculations , but that's for other things and more related to gear battles).

I'm thinking the competitive community will just have to figure out a base line to work off of when targeting damage information. Certain characters that all have the same defensive stat interplay, and don't have any major hitbox abnormalities. You had AFK Joker, maybe now you have PBJ points (Punching Bag Joker damage points). It's not as simple.

This is the I2 situation. Everyone can find a way to work with it or be mad at it, but that's a pretty fundamental change to make this late in the development. If it ends up being impossibly difficult to overcome then voicing it may impact the next game, but I think you are kind of stuck with the variables in this one.
Yeah it's probably too late to bring this (with the perennial talk of "this is a work in progress" I always figured everything was provisional).

As you said, it would make things simpler if it wasn't like that, and simpler is better most of the time.

When I test combo damage I will always use characters with 1000 defense as punching bags, I think that will probably be the best "standard", but it would be better if you didn't have to adopt a standard and then translate to other character defenses.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I like the point @Tony at Home brought up but I also think it CAN help balancing. If there is a character that is by design totally dependent on one move (Sub-Zero in MKX for example, nerfing that move would ruin the character, buffing it would send them to the moon, and bufffing his other moves would make the move he is dependent on too oppressive with a complete tool kit). But this gives a way to make a healthy adjustment to a character like Sub-Zero by taking or adding health if they are deemed too strong or weak, instead of blasting them to either end of the tier list because that's what an actual adjustment would do to a character like that.