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Question - Sub-Zero Armor Breaking w/ Grandmaster

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Would anyone be interested in a compendium of match up and variation based armor breaking corner tech?

I'm planning on testing/ expanding the viability of beating armor while the opponent is in the corner using safe clone > d4, where d4 breaks the armor and the clone freezes the opponent. I'll be including reversals that are low profiled and whiff punishable post d4 check as well.

Comment with some ideas, thoughts, questions and concerns. But please understand, if I'm going to do this, it's going to remain fairly simple for the time being. If your idea isn't included in the finished product, know that it's only the first draft and you may see your ideas edited in as the post evolves (and you can PM me to remind me).
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Update on lab notes. A few variations into this and it's already looking pretty promising. Especially the odd interactions with low profiling armored wake ups that are hit by d4, but do not reach ice clone. It's opening up f42 1+3 into clone. Interesting situations in which SZ can run 25% back into the same set up after beating the armor.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
What are you testing against?

I guess its best used after a max damage ender like going for the 40% off b2 instead of the HKD

This could be viable I guess

But I feel like most things blocked or whiffed will either be punishable even heavier right. EG if you can catch Raiden in it but youd get much much more from just blocking if this was your read. Find the match ups where this catches unpunishable wake ups.
 
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RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
I'm testing against all armored wake up specials after safe clone set ups in the corner. A lot of characters have safe wake up moves (Kung Jin, Raiden, etc) which can't be punished after block, but can be punished with the d4 check after clone. This is used to make the opponent think none of their armored wake ups are safe, while taking their 1 bar of meter and dealing ~25% back into the same set up.

Attempts to get out of the corner using armor will become high risk in the SZ match up, whereas against other characters, wake ups would get the opponent out for (almost) free. This is an expansion on a small blurb from the original GM guide by @Tom Brady.
 

SLEZZY

NOT sleazy
I was testing this with a certain setup where it would beat the armor on the fastest wakeups (Reptile slide, Kano up ball); it's really tight, and doesn't work well on female characters too well.

For males, I do b2, 242, f12 (you have to hit f12 as high as possible). If done correctly, they'll bounce way back, when their legs are in the air and pushed back as far as possible, then you clone. Afterwards, you can do a d4, it'll beat the fastest of armored moves at least, that's what I've tested so far.

On females, I've only gotten b2, f12 to work with this setup. Haven't experimented much with that yet.

The only problem is, they can roll back (all characters), and your d4 will whiff, if they decide to wakeup armor, they'll whiff punish you.
 

loogie

Noob
you tried d4 into ice burst to shatter the clone in this situation? d4 eats the armor, and instead of the freeze into clone they eat shrapnels ...
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Yes, this was one of the situations I looked at. There were a few issues with it, like faster armored wake ups were hit by d4, but before SZ could shatter the clone, the opponent would run into the clone. Then ice burst would hit them for minimal damage, knock them down, and we're stuck without a clone to jail them.

Another problem was if they blocked, the set up wasn't confirmable. The shatter would put us at far neutral with no clone to jail them. The d4 alone gives us a safe shot at another mix up.

The third issue I ran into was something @crosshair271 found. There's some kind of bug where ice frag from shatter hits, but the opponent recovers immediately and just blocks the rest of the ice burst in a standing position.

Other than that, the shatter combos on opponents that whiff their wake up over d4 don't work all too well off the set ups I'm using (they're in the tech thread about armor shredding). It's too close to pick up the combo as is.

The thread is as much informative as it is a call for help. We have a thread we can pull to unravel the rest of the cast, wether it be shredding armor withd4/ b2/ f4 (@SLEZZY had this idea), or another viable addition entirely.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Are you sure D4 Shatter is better than just shattering? Seeing as it's multihitting?
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
I'm not going to dismiss either option right away. Tremor is out and I'll add him to the tech thread tonight. Afterwards, I'll play with shatter, d4 shatter, etc. I'll post again so people can see what situations these would work in, whether they're paractical or naw, from my perspective.

Having said that, I've played with these options before and they didn't give me good results (see above posts). I have a hunch that for the most part, the opponent will either beat raw shatter, run into the clone between d4 and ice burst, or simply block and get out of our corner pressure.
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
@loogie maybe not, but test it for yourself. This whole idea came from having "just a thought" after watching Rebelo SZ play Coach Steeve's Kano, where Kano would wake up ex knives/ ex uprise ball to beat corner clone. Now we have a hard counter to that. Not only that, but during testing, I found a bunch of other things like heavier attacks shredding armor For higher unsealed damage, or how to place a clone mid combo and combo into it off f4, which is a great pressure tool on its own, now hit confirmable into 50%. It's a thought process that I've found one single way to apply. Others are out there for sure.

I'm glad you guys are on board with it, that's exactly what this character needs. Keep the ideas coming.
 

SLEZZY

NOT sleazy
Also note, this doesn't work against characters who have armored wakeups that don't move them forward into the clone, i.e. Kenshi, probably Tempest Lao (haven't tested with him yet, though).
 
Great work on bringing this to light, but I have to say, stuff like this is part of the reason why im not so upset that tom brady has left us, he stifles creativity within the community and prevents lesser players from bringing forward their ideas

I personally have been using D4 after a clone set up in several match ups to shut down wake ups for a long time now, good tech, keep researching it and im sure you'll find as I have it can be very useful
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
So there's already a thread on the front page that's been tested against every character in every variation. It's called armor shredding, it might be stickied soon, so you can check that out and comment on what needs to be adjusted there
 

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
The question as to if we should have a guide is more popular than the guide itself... Ninja is you Sub-Zerious?