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April Patch Hot takes

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Dude what. I keep seeing these seriously reductive comparisons made between characters. I mained cage in mk9 and mkx and grodd is my most used in injustice, trust me there's a plethora of differences most notably being from different games
Well I knew Mike was a Cage player so I'm just making a joke because I don't see how Grodd has no way of opening people up.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Yeah nah pass me on giving Grodd an actual grab off of 22 1+3. I'd rather not get vortex'd and lose possibly the whole round because I guessed wrong on a tick throw.

The way he was before they ruined stampede cancels was going in the right direction imo.

Look, in my honest opinion, launching mid grabs just never seems like a good idea
 
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Hot take: Adam has been balanced since the first big balance patch, people who have complained about him in the past have just refused to level up in the match-up because their idea of his gameplan stems from month 1 Adam play.

This nerf is particularly annoying, because it doesn't do much. The damage nerf to low lightning is whatever, but not catching airborne opponents outside of juggles is stupid. Its already a 26f move with crazy recovery, people already can duck on reaction or jump and full combo punish.
This says it all.....
 
Maaan!... With the Cold buffs I can finally downplay Captain Cold. It wasn't even possible before. Thanks a lot Paulo..You taketh but You giveth to the needed. Just please leave it like that. Giveth to others that need it if it's needed. This... This is now The Captain Cold I needed... A rush-down type.:)
 

Wigy

There it is...
Well I knew Mike was a Cage player so I'm just making a joke because I don't see how Grodd has no way of opening people up.
How do u open up someone who knows the mu with grodd then?

His only plus normal sc that's usable in the neutral is b2 (which has limited range and isn't hitconfirmable) aside from that it's slow strings with gaps everywhere.

His only mix is his grab
 
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Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
How do u open up someone who knows the mu with grodd then?

His only plus normal sc that's usable in the neutral is b2 (which has limited range and isn't hitconfirmable) aside from that it's slow strings with gaps everywhere.

His only mix is his grab
Heavily agree. Being knocked down is almost best case scenario since it gives you the option of delayed wakeup, backdashes, or armour

Not including characters who have insane wakeups like Robin, which is an invincible option you have to commit (commit to a block, neutral jumping it is hard and 99% of the time lets him get away for free) to to punish. If you commit to that, I might just wakeup backdash instead and now it's Grodd v Robin neutral game which is forever in Robin's favour.

Just an example, which isn't even the hardest one. I could've used Aquaman but I'm not Satan.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Not to mention the fact that stampede cancels became easier to recognise so it's less of a commitment to counterpoke a negative SC.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
How do u open up someone who knows the mu with grodd then?

His only plus normal sc that's usable in the neutral is b2 (which has limited range and isn't hitconfirmable) aside from that it's slow strings with gaps everywhere.

His only mix is his grab
Well why don't you explain to me why something like 22~sc and 221 isn't effective stagger offense? Some characters use throws a lot in their offense. I'm not telling you he's the Flash but I don't get why you guys say that stuff is trash.

Not to mention the fact that stampede cancels became easier to recognise so it's less of a commitment to counterpoke a negative SC.
TBH I think this idea that the SC is easier to recognize after they shaved two frames off of it is a bill.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Well why don't you explain to me why something like 22~sc and 221 isn't effective stagger offense? Some characters use throws a lot in their offense. I'm not telling you he's the Flash but I don't get why you guys say that stuff is trash.



TBH I think this idea that the SC is easier to recognize after they shaved two frames off of it is a bill.
221 isn't a string.

Okay so u do 22 SC ur like minus 1 then what? A poke which leads to nothing or any other string they can mash poke out of?

Grodd is good at a few things. His d2 is top tier. His d1 is the best in the game hands down. Stampede as a standalone move is the best special in the game. His damage is probably top 5 also

His normals however do not force respect like other characters where you are forced to guess a 50/50 or if you want to disrespect their endless plus frames you can eat 400 damage for it off a d1. Put this together with the fact he has to get in on the person and will be eating dick the whole time then when he gets in the person has longer range more threatening normals.

Then you throw in his complete fucking aids matchups like Aquaman Robin scarecrow etc

Do you play grodd out of curiosity?

I don't think he's like shit tier but the only characters i think he's definitely better than are captain cold joker Don and raiden.

I'm guna take your opinion with a huge pinch of salt as I remember you saying drunken master isn't bad.

:DOGE
 
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221 isn't a string.

Okay so u do 22 SC ur like minus 1 then what? A poke which leads to nothing or any other string they can mash poke out of?

Grodd is good at a few things. His d2 is top tier. His d1 is the best in the game hands down. Stampede as a standalone move is the best special in the game. His damage is probably top 5 also

His normals however do not force respect like other characters where you are forced to guess a 50/50 or if you want to disrespect their endless plus frames you can eat 400 damage for it off a d1. Put this together with the fact he has to get in on the person and will be eating dick the whole time then when he gets in the person has longer range more threatening normals.

Then you throw in his complete fucking aids matchups like Aquaman Robin scarecrow etc

Do you play grodd out of curiosity?

I don't think he's like shit tier but the only characters i think he's definitely better than are captain cold joker Don and raiden.

I'm guna take your opinion with a huge pinch of salt as I remember you saying drunken master isn't bad.:DOGE
I will never understand why anyone gets opened up by Grodd in the neutral, it's pathetic he is the easiest character to block in the game. The amount of people who get hit with restand sweep is appalling, and no one should be able to complain when you get hit with a low from Grodd, because he has no overheads. Learn a MU Grodd is still bottom 3


Sent from my iPhone using Test Your Might
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
TBH I think this idea that the SC is easier to recognize after they shaved two frames off of it is a bill.
It getting changed by 2 frames isn't the difference, they literally changed the animation for it to make it easier to recognise. And it's pretty significant. Yeah you're unlikely to 100% counter poke every negative cancel on reaction but it's a lot easier imo.

Look, he has the grab mixup, but that's it. Echoing what @Hawkeye1345 said, I just don't see someone ever getting opened up outside of ridiculous bad circumstances or just poor decision making and taking risks where they're unnecessary. I can't think of anything else. I've been playing Grodd and playing against a few Grodd's since his stampede's got ruined and there's just nothing to fear, he has like 2 plus SC's IIRC and one's a high with a gap, and the other is only +1. Can't speak for his post-patch plus frames after this but I hope they're better. Since they even took out the game of his 22 you can option select it with armour or a backdash, which he can of course read, but that's a VERY hard read.

And as mentioned, he has arguably the worst MU in the game in the form of Aquaman, which is 3-7 best case scenario, and is a character that is super braindead easy to play that you could probably just lab Aquaman for an hour or two and be set to fight a Grodd with above average chances of winning. Not to mention anyone who has significant footsies, above average air control, or decent projectiles still gives him a hard time.

I'm going to disagree with @Wigy on this one though, I really think he's trash at the moment. He's been bottom 5 since the game came out and he's only gotten worse since then so I don't really see how he's anything but.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
221 isn't a string.

Okay so u do 22 SC ur like minus 1 then what? A poke which leads to nothing or any other string they can mash poke out of?

Grodd is good at a few things. His d2 is top tier. His d1 is the best in the game hands down. Stampede as a standalone move is the best special in the game. His damage is probably top 5 also

His normals however do not force respect like other characters where you are forced to guess a 50/50 or if you want to disrespect their endless plus frames you can eat 400 damage for it off a d1. Put this together with the fact he has to get in on the person and will be eating dick the whole time then when he gets in the person has longer range more threatening normals.

Then you throw in his complete fucking aids matchups like Aquaman Robin scarecrow etc

Do you play grodd out of curiosity?

I don't think he's like shit tier but the only characters i think he's definitely better than are captain cold joker Don and raiden.

I'm guna take your opinion with a huge pinch of salt as I remember you saying drunken master isn't bad.:DOGE
233 and 22~SC. Blocked 223 leaves you at a good range for his d1. If they backdash in anticipation of 223, you can potentially punish with 22~sc. If you get a poke off you use the advantage to continue your offense. Mix in some throws. Again, I'm not saying it's godlike pressure but I just don't see why people talk as if it's useless.

No I don't really play Grodd, but I've been looking to pick him up in recent weeks.

I remember saying DM wasn't among the worst variations in the game which he just isn't. And come on, is saying that low minus staggers are usable such a crazy opinion?

And is it just me or are some cancels more advantageous at range? When I do 22~sc at distance on Captain Cold I can only seem to trade but he pokes out clean up close.

@Cursa Honestly I'm not convinced man. People were saying that before they knew that frames were shaved off. Just do a jump immediately after a stampede cancel and tell me if you can honestly react to that animation. This thing where he stands taller then he did before? You don't even see it.
 
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Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
233 and 22~SC. Blocked 223 leaves you at a good range for his d1. If they backdash in anticipation of 223, you can potentially punish with 22~sc. If you get a poke off you use the advantage to continue your offense. Mix in some throws. Again, I'm not saying it's godlike pressure but I just don't see why people talk as if it's useless.

No I don't really play Grodd, but I've been looking to pick him up in recent weeks.

I remember saying DM wasn't among the worst variations in the game which he just isn't. And come on, is saying that low minus staggers are usable such a crazy opinion?

And is it just me or are some cancels more advantageous at range? When I do 22~sc at distance on Captain Cold I can only seem to trade but he pokes out clean up close.
Well 223 has a gap in it still I'm pretty sure. Also isn't 223 negative on block to begin with?

It's not even the fact that his stagger game is bad or anything. It's nice, but below average, and it's basically all he can do in the neutral aside from whiff punish with average whiff punishing buttons. If you can get started with him then great, but at the end of the day against a patient player there's maybe a 1% chance that you'll properly get a vortex started.

You can basically just wait until he makes a mistake and punish him in most MUs
 
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Wigy

There it is...
Tldr is that he doesn't force mistakes from good players and has no actual mix.

Also lol why are you talking about a character who's complicated as fuck that you don't even play

You've had too much rice wine if u think drunken master wasn't horrible.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Well 223 has a gap in it still I'm pretty sure. Also isn't 223 negative on block to begin with?
223 was changed I think but it is now -1 with some pushback. It does have a gap(fairly certain you can only backdash/super) but you could potentially abuse that gap with a 22~sc cancel, might be difficult or impossible with some backdashes though.

Alright @Wigy man we've been through this before, I'll just say that if you think 30-50 variations in the game are trash, then I agree with you that DM is trash. But I'm trying to talk about Grodd now.
 

Wigy

There it is...
mostly every character has staggers of this quality and a number of them have better frames on them with mixes and a d1 combo starter, his just have an execution barrier.

Maybe if u actually pick him up you'll see his flaws. It's not really a productive conversation until then.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
223 was changed I think but it is now -1 with some pushback. It does have a gap(fairly certain you can only backdash/super) but you could potentially abuse that gap with a 22~sc cancel, might be difficult or impossible with some backdashes though.

Alright @Wigy man we've been through this before, I'll just say that if you think 30-50 variations in the game are trash, then I agree with you that DM is trash. But I'm trying to talk about Grodd now.
You can armour it, unless it was changed recently. I have a thread in the Bane thread that lists every gap that can be armoured in the game and it's still in there. Whether it's easy to do with a MB B3 is another story since sometimes that isn't very easy.

See that's the thing though. You could try to bait it with 22xxSC but that's -3 (Unless it was changed as of recent patch, pretty sure it's still negative though), so you're the one having to make a pretty hard read on that. And in most cases an opponent won't try to abuse the gap due to either lack of MU or having MU knowledge.

There's no point in risking the interrupt to begin with because it just gives Grodd an option to counter. You just block him to death. If he goes for a read like that then GG I'll take my free plus frames, or punish if he goes for a deep read like MB B3 or poking out of the -3.
 

Yer_Da

I don't sell Avon.
Top 10 and bottom 10 remains unchanged but the gap isn't as huge.

Raiden in the game is an absolute failure.

Atom is the most up-played character in the entire scene because people don't know how to play the MU, don't @ me.
 

Yer_Da

I don't sell Avon.
Just to note, I think Atom is definitely top 15 and most likely top 10 but I see things like top 3/5 and die inside.