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Question - Grandmaster apology about last buff thread

champdee

Noob
why are you doing 24 clone at all anyways, but btw jip's are not +2, they're around +15.
because AA's aren't good first of all... second its plus on jumpin, and third you can hit confirm into 242 rc 1 f42~slide if it hits... basically it's his one neautal besides b12 which everyone expects... it's more of a my style thing.. trying to find ways to rush down that's really reason behind it.


And mainly I figured I'd just share so people know..., like, jip 24~clone shatter (clones mad close) on block does nice chip so I was tryna kind lab that basically... If you remember in mk9 21, 21, 212~clone was not discovered till way late so.. just dig ya know?
 

Goat-City

Banned
Overpowers him? New found tech? if you aren't up on the character do the research before requesting nerfs




Cryo's hammer should be 18f imo
What? With Tom's tech you can armor break nearly every wakeup in the game with a b2 into a 40% meterless combo and still set up the clone safely. Tom himself believes Sub is number 5-7 in the game with this tech. That's not the only reason his f12 should do 9% damage either. And I play the character myself by the way. B2 should also do 7% instead of 9%. If you think that's too much then you're downplaying, especially with the b33 iceball buff in mind, which he needs in all 3 of his variations.

For Cryo, the regular hammer is fine how it is, but the EX hammer I agree should be 18 frames so you can counter poke with it. He also needs an ice knife projectile and his d1 should be extended with his knife and made to be 7 frames.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
What? With Tom's tech you can armor break nearly every wakeup in the game with a b2 into a 40% meterless combo and still set up the clone safely. Tom himself believes Sub is number 5-7 in the game with this tech. That's not the only reason his f12 should do 9% damage either. And I play the character myself by the way. B2 should also do 7% instead of 9%. If you think that's too much then you're downplaying, especially with b33 iceball buff in mind, which he needs in all 3 of his variations.

For Cryo, the regular hammer is fine how it is, but the EX hammer I agree should be 18 frames so you can counter poke with it. He also needs an ice knife projectile and his d1 should be extended with his knife and made to be 7 frames.
"Tom's tech" pretty sure it was all known already, and the character hasn't gotten any stronger at all. He already has to spend a bar just to hit 30% midscreen, he doesn't need his corner damage nerfed either just because people are starting to improve and agree on what the best corner set up is. That shit is like week 1 tech aint it? F12 into clone knockdown gives you time to armor break? No?
 

Goat-City

Banned
"Tom's tech" pretty sure it was all known already, and the character hasn't gotten any stronger at all. He already has to spend a bar just to hit 30% midscreen, he doesn't need his corner damage nerfed either just because people are starting to improve and agree on what the best corner set up is. That shit is like week 1 tech aint it? F12 into clone knockdown gives you time to armor break? No?
The tech was not known for a very long time. Madzin never used it, DJT never used it either. For a while in fact people were actually using NJK for the safe clone setup imstead of f12. Sub Zero doesn't need more midscreen damage. 29% with massive corner carry into an extremely strong corner trap game is great. He needs a slight damage nerf, that's it. He'll still be doing 40% combos in the corner for no meter off safe 50/50s into another trap setup that you can't even armor out of. Sub is top tier and all top tiers currently need slight nerfs.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
The tech was not known for a very long time. Madzin never used it, DJT never used it either. For a while in fact people were actually using NJK for the safe clone setup imstead of f12. Sub Zero doesn't need more midscreen damage. 29% with massive corner carry into an extremely strong corner trap game is great. He needs a slight damage nerf, that's it. He'll still be doing 40% combos in the corner for no meter off safe 50/50s into another trap setup that you can't even armor out of. Sub is top tier and all top tiers currently need slight nerfs.
I agree with everything but he doesn't need a damage nerf. His damage sucks butt midscreen and 40% corner isn't unheard of. I would also say he his not a top tier character.
 

Goat-City

Banned
I agree with everything but he doesn't need a damage nerf. His damage sucks butt midscreen and 40% corner isn't unheard of. I would also say he his not a top tier character.
29% meterless with all that corner carry is fine, you've got to factor in the corner carry. 45% meterless off a safe overhead that can't be armored through and 40% off a safe unreactable low is unheard of. Sub is top tier, if you don't realize he's top tier then you're not playing him correctly. He needs a slight damage nerf without a doubt. You can get your opponent in the corner easily with him, and once he's in there it might as well be game over. Madzin has proven he's top tier and he doesn't even use his corner tech to its fullest potential.
 

crosshair271

Sub-Xerox
The tech was not known for a very long time. Madzin never used it, DJT never used it either. For a while in fact people were actually using NJK for the safe clone setup imstead of f12. Sub Zero doesn't need more midscreen damage. 29% with massive corner carry into an extremely strong corner trap game is great. He needs a slight damage nerf, that's it. He'll still be doing 40% combos in the corner for no meter off safe 50/50s into another trap setup that you can't even armor out of. Sub is top tier and all top tiers currently need slight nerfs.
I made a combo video showing most of the tech and setups being used now back in May. The tech was known and I wasn't the only one who knew about it or was using it. Cat, Alioune, Qwark28, Zoofs, I GOT HANDS, Rebelo, Lucky, Taco, Madzin and many others were using it. I always hated NJK unless it was for a shatter setup which I've revised and no longer use. You see me using F12 in there but not for smothering because I was showcasing shatters which I revised to setup from F12 with recent videos. In the corner his B2 is extremely unsafe even with Klone out. His damage output is equalized for the most part. Mid screen he only manages 20's to a max 31%. Corner the typical combo leads to mid 30's. Now with shatters which require (corner + setup + actual hit) he gets 40's to a 50%. No guarantee on actually getting shatters if blocked and Klone is then gone because of burst.
 
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God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
29% meterless with all that corner carry is fine, you've got to factor in the corner carry. 45% meterless off a safe overhead that can't be armored through and 40% off a safe unreactable low is unheard of. Sub is top tier, if you don't realize he's top tier then you're not playing him correctly. He needs a slight damage nerf without a doubt. You can get your opponent in the corner easily with him, and once he's in there it might as well be game over. Madzin has proven he's top tier and he doesn't even use his corner tech to its fullest potential.
Misinformation galoreeeee

It's been known and shown many times before Tom did. I know you are always caping for him, but contrary to what he may have you believe just because Tom says it doesn't mean he pioneered it, and doesn't mean its fresh tech, the sub at my local has been doing this for ages, I know plenty of others have too. And just because Tom says something is the gospel doesn't make it so, I love tom but he's had little to no competitive impact in this game lets be real

Also you don't get 45/40% off his 50/50 standard, you get it if you corner carry, land the next 50/50, use it to set up and then immediately land the next 50/50 as well, at which point you've already won. The times when shatter combos make a significant game difference are highly situational at least and is when you start the round with them in the corner.

If your issue is with the situational ass shatter combos, then ask for more scaling on Shatter, instead of on F12 which would affect his regular damage which is much much lower and not at all broken. Still unnecessary either way however

On top of that, his OH is not at all safe, plenty of the cast can punish it with meter especially the top tier ones, so to use this as a measure is just flat wrong
 

crosshair271

Sub-Xerox
Misinformation galoreeeee

It's been known and shown many times before Tom did. I know you are always caping for him, but contrary to what he may have you believe just because Tom says it doesn't mean he pioneered it, and doesn't mean its fresh tech, the sub at my local has been doing this for ages, I know plenty of others have too. And just because Tom says something is the gospel doesn't make it so, I love tom but he's had little to no competitive impact in this game lets be real

Also you don't get 45/40% off his 50/50 standard, you get it if you corner carry, land the next 50/50, use it to set up and then immediately land the next 50/50 as well, at which point you've already won. The times when shatter combos make a significant game difference are highly situational at least and is when you start the round with them in the corner.

If your issue is with the situational ass shatter combos, then ask for more scaling on Shatter, instead of on F12 which would affect his regular damage which is much much lower and not at all broken. Still unnecessary either way however

On top of that, his OH is not at all safe, plenty of the cast can punish it with meter especially the top tier ones, so to use this as a measure is just flat wrong
I can't even begin to tell you how many times Tom chewed me out saying all this tech was garbage and gimmicky and that he tried it. Yet all of a sudden he's using it and it's good. Late to the party but glad you're here now.

His high damage from shatters carry a huge risk outside of the regular strategy. High risk high reward unlike characters like Kung Lao who get 37% for 1 bar off a stray hit mid-screen and get everything. And if his overhead is what is getting you maybe train hard to see it coming then punish. All Sub players have been ripped a new one for a blocked B2.
 

N00B

Noob
yep sub zero needs buffs .
thats ice clone issues needs to be fixed and maybe clone should stay on block, he also needs better pokes his all pokes 9 frames lol 6 frame d1 sounds good and he needs better hitbox for ice burst, cryomancer boring imo and doesnt needs buffs lol, i dont know what unbreakable needs, i dont know anything about unbreakable. And also that bitches dvora, jaqcui, takeda e.t.c. bitches should suck ice dick no more dvora, jaqcui e.t.c. bitches madness.
Just make that Sub Zero never lose to dvora, jaqcui e.t.c. bitches pls.
Kuai Liang deserved better fate imo.
 
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I made a combo video showing most of the tech and setups being used now back in May. The tech was known and I wasn't the only one who knew about it or was using it. Cat, Qwark28, Zoofs, I GOT HANDS, Rebelo, Lucky, Taco, Madzin and many others were using it. I always hated NJK unless it was for a shatter setup which I've revised and no longer use. You see me using F12 in there but not for smothering because I was showcasing shatters which I revised to setup from F12 with recent videos. In the corner his B2 is extremely unsafe even with Klone out. His damage output is equalized for the most part. Mid screen he only manages 20's to a max 31%. Corner the typical combo leads to mid 30's. Now with shatters which require (corner + setup + actual hit) he gets 40's to a 50%. No guarantee on actually getting shatters if blocked and Klone is then gone because of burst.
That video didn't show the tech at all. The tech is putting the clone in the same place every time so you can armor break almost all wake up attacks and anti air with b2 in the corner, and if it hits you get the 40% combo into another setup. The b2 isn't completely safe in the corner from behind the ice clone, that's true, but only a few characters can punish it since it requires having at least a 12 frame forward advancing reversal attack. But that requires a bar and it doesn't do much unless it's a launcher, and very few characters have an armored launcher that can punish Sub's b2 from behind the ice clone in the corner. No one in tournament used the b2 armor breaking tech, no one knew about it.
 

crosshair271

Sub-Xerox
That video didn't show the tech at all. The tech is putting the clone in the same place every time so you can armor break almost all wake up attacks and anti air with b2 in the corner, and if it hits you get the 40% combo into another setup. The b2 isn't completely safe in the corner from behind the ice clone, that's true, but only a few characters can punish it since it requires having at least a 12 frame forward advancing reversal attack. But that requires a bar and it doesn't do much unless it's a launcher, and very few characters have an armored launcher that can punish Sub's b2 from behind the ice clone in the corner. No one in tournament used the b2 armor breaking tech, no one knew about it.
We had common knowledge that it can break armor due to Klone touch + attack. Some of those players I mentioned have videos shattering armor back from April/May. Most of us opted to be safe and secure by smothering the opponent with Klone being close and not give breathing room on setups. Shatters were there and used depending on comfort levels and scenarios but never the core focus on corner lockdown.

You don't even have to punish B2. You can block it correctly and start pressuring him. After B2 he either blocks and loses Klone, gets hit and loses Klone, possibly squeeze a back dash for invincibility and you run into Klone. Use your arm normals as followup after blocked B2, they pass through Klone.
 
Misinformation galoreeeee

It's been known and shown many times before Tom did. I know you are always caping for him, but contrary to what he may have you believe just because Tom says it doesn't mean he pioneered it, and doesn't mean its fresh tech, the sub at my local has been doing this for ages, I know plenty of others have too. And just because Tom says something is the gospel doesn't make it so, I love tom but he's had little to no competitive impact in this game lets be real

Also you don't get 45/40% off his 50/50 standard, you get it if you corner carry, land the next 50/50, use it to set up and then immediately land the next 50/50 as well, at which point you've already won. The times when shatter combos make a significant game difference are highly situational at least and is when you start the round with them in the corner.

If your issue is with the situational ass shatter combos, then ask for more scaling on Shatter, instead of on F12 which would affect his regular damage which is much much lower and not at all broken. Still unnecessary either way however

On top of that, his OH is not at all safe, plenty of the cast can punish it with meter especially the top tier ones, so to use this as a measure is just flat wrong
The Sub at your local has been setting up the clone in the same spot every time and intentionally armor breaking wake up attacks with b2? I'll take your word for it, but that's a random Sub at a local. No major tournament player used the tech and no one discussed it in the Sub forum unless you can prove to me otherwise, and even if they did, that wouldn't change the fact that Sub Zero is top tier because of it. And you don't have to land a 50/50 to set up the clone, all you have to do is use a f4, f42, b12, 123, or d4 into ice clone on block close to or in the corner and you've got it set up for shatter combos. The only truly safe one on block is f4 but not all characters can punish the other strings, f4 is still easy to land, and you can bait a punish with the EX clone, so yeah, you do not need to land a 50/50 to set up shatter combos, you just need to get them close to the corner and get the clone out by any means. You can also get it out safely by ending midscreen combos with 112, which sets up the shatter combos in the corner if you're the right distance from it. Shatter combos are constant difference makers, especially if you have your opponent already in the corner at the start of the next round, just get the clone out and your opponent is stuck in the corner ready to eat those shatters.

Sub's damage could be normalized by increasing the scaling on the clone shatter, but nerfing f12's damage and b2's damage are more logical. Sub should have to sacrifice significant damage to get the clone out safely. Currently using f12 instead of 123 slide to end corner combos only decreases their damage by 2%. That's not significant enough for how huge of a reward getting a safe clone out after a combo is. Plus making f12 9% instead of 12% would make 112 the go to hard knockdown string for unbreakable to use for safe ice aura set ups, since f12 does slightly more damage and gives more advantage, making 112 less useful in general. As for making b2 7% damage instead of 9%, currently Sub Zero can get a 38% combo in the corner off a raw overhead without the use of a clone shatter or meter, 36% if you want the safe clone setup. That's too much considering how high tier he is with his armor breaking tech. Not even Warlock Quan Chi can get that much damage off his overhead for a bar. Simply increasing scaling on the clone shatter would not effect these 2 issues, which is why I don't prefer it.

Also, keep in mind that the rest of the top tier should be slightly nerfed as well. I wouldn't ask for Sub to get slightly nerfed while not asking for the rest of the top tier to get slightly nerfed as well. I'm just listing what exactly Sub should get nerfed, I don't know how to nerf the other characters.

Lastly, b2 from behind the clone in the corner might not be completely safe, but it requires a 12 frame or faster forward advancing EX reversal attack to punish it, which few characters have, and even if they do have it, unless it's a launcher it's not really worth it.
 
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crosshair271

Sub-Xerox
The Sub at your local has been setting up the clone in the same spot every time and intentionally armor breaking wake up attacks with b2? I'll take your word for it, but that's a random Sub at a local. No major tournament player used the tech and no one discussed it in the Sub forum unless you can prove me otherwise, and even if they did, that wouldn't change the fact that Sub Zero is top tier because of it. And you don't have to land a 50/50 to set up the clone, all you have to do is use a f4, f42, b12, 123, or d4 into ice clone on block close to or in the corner and you've got it setup. The only truly safe one on block is f4 but not all characters can punish the other strings, f4 is still easy to land, and you can bait a punish with the EX clone, so yeah, you do not need to land a 50/50 to set up shatter combos, you just need to get them close to the corner and get the clone out by any means. You can also get it out safely by ending midscreen combos with 112, which sets up the shatter combos in the corner if you're the right distance from it. Shatter combos are constant difference makers, especially if you have your opponent already in the corner at the start of the next round, just get the clone out and your opponent is stuck in the corner ready to eat those shatters.

Sub's damage could be normalized by increasing the scaling on the clone shatter, but nerfing f12's damage and b2's damage are more logical. Sub should have to sacrifice significant damage to get the clone out safely. Currently using f12 instead of 123 slide to end corner combos only decreases their damage by 2%. That's not significant enough for how huge of a reward getting a safe clone out after a combo is. Plus making f12 9% instead of 12% would make 112 the go to hard knockdown string for unbreakable to use for safe ice aura set ups, since f12 does slightly more damage and gives more advantage, making 112 less useful in general. As for making b2 7% damage instead of 9%, currently Sub Zero can get a 38% combo off a raw overhead without the use of a clone shatter or meter, 36% if you want the safe clone setup. That's too much considering how high tier he is with his armor breaking tech. Simply increasing scaling on the clone shatter would not effect these 2 issues, which is why I don't prefer it.

Lastly, b2 from behind the clone in the corner might not be completely safe, but it requires a 12 frame or faster forward advancing EX reversal attack to punish it, which few characters have, and even if they do have it, unless it's a launcher it's not really worth it.
When he starts filling up the tournament character slots then it's a problem.

In Unbreakable you either end with Aura Burst or 123xxSlide. Slide gives the most damage and still enough advantage to do Aura. 112 really only works when pushing from mid-screen to corner and keep distance, advantage for Klone.

You keep saying nerf his damage but you're requesting it on his corner game. Other characters can do this or better with easier methods corner or not. If everyone else is equalized then possibly it can be agreed on. Also those string damage nerfs will hit his other variations. Cryo still does damage but Unbreakable says otherwise.

Once again you don't need to full on punish a blocked B2. Do an arm normal string to poke through Klone and either hit or make him block. Both will take away Klone. Or just block B2 and wait out the Klone. Don't forget we are all humans, we don't get everything perfect and that goes both ways. We're not the AI that reads inputs and reacts perfectly in 1 frame. It's not like there is no chance to get out of these scenarios and you may as well put the controller down.
 
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We had common knowledge that it can break armor due to Klone touch + attack. Some of those players I mentioned have videos shattering armor back from April/May. Most of us opted to be safe and secure by smothering the opponent with Klone being close and not give breathing room on setups. Shatters were there and used depending on comfort levels and scenarios but never the core focus on corner lockdown.

You don't even have to punish B2. You can block it correctly and start pressuring him. After B2 he either blocks and loses Klone, gets hit and loses Klone, possibly squeeze a back dash for invincibility and you run into Klone. Use your arm normals as followup after blocked B2, they pass through Klone.
Look, the tech is setting up the clone in the same exact spot every single time and purposefully using b2 to armor break wake ups into a 40% shatter combo. If people were not doing this until recently, then they were not using the tech properly. It's irrelevant whether or not they vaguely knew they could armor break with b2 and a clone. What matters is them actually knowing how to set up that armor breaking opportunity every single time and using it. Sub's corner game should be completely based around this tech and clone shatter combos. It really doesn't matter either way, the point is that this tech without a doubt makes Sub top tier, it's extremely powerful tech.

How can you pressure Sub after a blocked b2 if Sub is standing behind the clone? If he's standing behind the clone after getting his b2 blocked, then trying to pressure with a string will just get the opponent frozen.
 

crosshair271

Sub-Xerox
Look, the tech is setting up the clone in the same exact spot every single time and purposefully using b2 to armor break wake ups into a 40% shatter combo. If people were not doing this until recently, then they were not using the tech properly. It's irrelevant whether or not they vaguely knew they could armor break with b2 and a clone. What matters is them actually knowing how to set up that armor breaking opportunity every single time and using it. Sub's corner game should be completely based around this tech and clone shatter combos. It really doesn't matter either way, the point is that this tech without a doubt makes Sub top tier, it's extremely powerful tech.

How can you pressure Sub after a blocked b2 if Sub is standing behind the clone? If he's standing behind the clone after getting his b2 blocked, then trying to pressure with a string will just get the opponent frozen.
Try it with Erron's punch string. Goes right through. Also you're basing this unbeatable tech on the fact that the opponent will ALWAYS try to wake-up armor. Block the B2 then use an armor move. Can't break armor when he's recovering or blocking. Tom didn't show that in his video. Guarantee you if Scorpion blocked B2 and did reversal EX Leg Grab Sub will get hit. Armor breaking scenario averted.
 
When he starts filling up the tournament character slots then it's a problem.

In Unbreakable you either end with Aura Burst or 123xxSlide. Slide gives the most damage and still enough advantage to do Aura. 112 really only works when pushing from mid-screen to corner and keep distance, advantage for Klone.

You keep saying nerf his damage but you're requesting it on his corner game. Other characters can do this or better with easier methods corner or not. If everyone else is equalized then possibly it can be agreed on. Also those string damage nerfs will hit his other variations. Cryo still does damage but Unbreakable says otherwise.

Once again you don't need to full on punish a blocked B2. Do an arm normal string to poke through Klone and either hit or make him block. Both will take away Klone. Or just block B2 and wait out the Klone. Don't forget we are all humans, we don't get everything perfect and that goes both ways. We're not the AI that reads inputs and reacts perfectly in 1 frame. It's not like there is no chance to get out of these scenarios and you may as well put the controller down.
Just because I think Sub Zero should get a slight damage nerf doesn't mean I think the rest of the top tier shouldn't get nerfed, which they should. If the rest of the top tier don't get nerfed, then neither should Sub Zero. They should all get nerfed rather than simply buffing low and mid tier characters because it would improve the game more and make it more skill based rather than character dirt based. I'm just explaining what exactly Sub Zero specifically should get nerfed of his. If I knew what the rest of the top tier characters should specifically have nerfed about them, I would give my opinion on them too.

I didn't know that about unbreakable though. And yeah the b2 nerf would hit his other variations, but it's only 2%. With the buffs I have for Unbreakable and Cryo in mind, they would be perfectly balanced even with a 7% overhead instead of a 9% overhead. The f12 damage nerf would not affect them because they don't use that string at all. Cryo has a unique f12 and Unbreakable like you said would never end combos with it.
 
Try it with Erron's punch string. Goes right through. Also you're basing this unbeatable tech on the fact that the opponent will ALWAYS try to wake-up armor. Block the B2 then use an armor move. Can't break armor when he's recovering or blocking. Tom didn't show that in his video. Guarantee you if Scorpion blocked B2 and did reversal EX Leg Grab Sub will get hit. Armor breaking scenario averted.
Ugh, obviously I know that. That's where making reads comes in. You're not going to use b2 every time, but it's always a threat to the opponent. If they think you're going to use b2, yeah they can wake up stand blocking, but then they'll get hit with the low into a 40% combo or get grabbed into a 25% combo. Even if they don't armor, it's a 50/50 regardless. That's the point and that's why it's so strong. Almost every single character has to respect it. Yeah Scorpion can use his EX leg grab after a blocked b2, but who gives a shit about that? That does no damage and it's no guarantee he'll get out of the corner. I explained this in a previous comment. Unless the armored move launches and is fast enough to be guaranteed after a blocked b2, it most likely will not be worth the bar, so you as the Sub Zero player will not have to worry about it. Tom has already explained this countless times.

Is Erron's punch string just one rare case or can most characters do it? Unless most characters can pressure afterwards, it's irrelevant.
 

crosshair271

Sub-Xerox
Ugh, obviously I know that. That's where making reads comes in. You're not going to use b2 every time, but it's always a threat to the opponent. If they think you're going to use b2, yeah they can wake up stand blocking, but then they'll get hit with the low into a 40% combo or get grabbed into a 25% combo. Even if they don't armor, it's a 50/50 regardless. That's the point and that's why it's so strong. Almost every single character has to respect it. Yeah Scorpion can use his EX leg grab after a blocked b2, but who gives a shit about that? That does no damage and it's no guarantee he'll get out of the corner. I explained this in a previous comment. Unless the armored move launches and is fast enough to be guaranteed after a blocked b2, it most likely will not be worth the bar, so you as the Sub Zero player will not have to worry about it. Tom has already explained this countless times.

Is Erron's punch string just one rare case or can most characters do it? Unless most characters can pressure afterwards, it's irrelevant.
Welcome to MKX:50/50 Edition. There is no guarantee they'll get hit after blocking B2. Either have impeccable blocking or make a complete counter strategy. I've had issues fighting Cassie with all her lows and overheads. Couldn't block everything and got blown up for it then realized I have EX burst. EX slide and a backdash. May not be able to combo off slide or backdash but I can get her off me some how.

And the fact you said who gives a shit about EX leg grab tells me you gave up and haven't tested counter strategies. My EX slide does small damage and can't be combo'ed off it but I still use it to get people off me and reset the neutral. I don't get much damage or a combo from slide but I sure will use it every time to get people off me and out of my face.

Many punch attacks go through Klone up to around their elbow. If he's standing close enough inside the Klone you can punch through. This applies to all characters punch normals. You have to test which are best. Irrelevant? Not even in the slightest. You poke through and get rid of his Klone. Either you hit or made him block. Moved him further from the corner and either reset the neutral, made some advantage or made a conversion.
 
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Welcome to MKX:50/50 Edition. There is no guarantee they'll get hit after blocking B2. Either have impeccable blocking or make a complete counter strategy. I've had issues fighting Cassie with all her lows and overheads. Couldn't block everything and got blown up for it then realized I have EX burst. EX slide and a backdash. May not be able to combo off slide or backdash but I can get her off me some how.

And the fact you said who gives a shit about EX leg grab tells me you gave up and haven't tested counter strategies. My EX slide does small damage and can't be combo'ed off it but I still use it to get people off me and reset the neutral. I don't get much damage or a combo from slide but I sure will use it every time to get people off me and out of my face.

Many punch attacks go through Klone up to around their elbow. If he's standing close enough inside the Klone you can punch through. This applies to all characters punch normals. You have to test which are best. Irrelevant? Not even in the slightest. You poke through and get rid of his Klone. Either you hit or made him block. Moved him further from the corner and either reset the neutral, made some advantage or made a conversion.
I'm not understanding your first paragraph, when did I say anything about guaranteeing a hit after a blocked b2? No idea what you're talking about there or whatever you were saying about 50/50s.

There's no reason to give a shit about Scorpion's EX takedown after a blocked b2. It does 10% or so damage, doesn't launch, doesn't guarantee pressure, and doesn't reverse positions. I'm sure you will use it every time, but again, why should the Sub Zero player care? He can just get right back up after barely taking any damage and the Scorpion player is still in the corner after spending a whole bar of meter. Again, unless the move launches or reverses positions, it's most likely not something for the Sub Zero player to care about. You mentioned being able to armor after a blocked b2 as a point towards why Sub Zero's corner damage should not be nerfed, and I'm telling you that unless the move launches or reverses positions, it will not be a relevant point for arguing against Sub's damage getting slightly nerfed because it is not effective enough.

I'm taking your word for it that most characters have strings that can pressure a blocked b2 even if Sub's standing in or slightly behind the clone. Doesn't matter though, it's a semantic argument. If you think having Sub Zero's corner damage slightly nerfed would underpower him because of this fact, then you're downplaying. I already said these nerfs should only be made if the rest of the top tier are nerfed as well. You're arguing for no reason. You can't possibly think that the slight nerfs I'm requesting on top of the b33 meterless ice ball buff and his general fixes would underpower him. The fact is that he does too much damage in the corner off a completely safe low starter and a relatively safe overhead starter that armor breaks 90% of the game's armored wakeups into a 40+ percent combo that guarantees another corner trap set up every time.
 
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God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
And you don't have to land a 50/50 to set up the clone, all you have to do is use a f4, f42, b12, 123, or d4 into ice clone on block close to or in the corner and you've got it set up for shatter combos. The only truly safe one on block is f4 but not all characters can punish the other strings, f4 is still easy to land, and you can bait a punish with the EX clone, so yeah, you do not need to land a 50/50 to set up shatter combos, you just need to get them close to the corner and get the clone out by any means. You can also get it out safely by ending midscreen combos with 112, which sets up the shatter combos in the corner if you're the right distance from it. Shatter combos are constant difference makers, especially if you have your opponent already in the corner at the start of the next round, just get the clone out and your opponent is stuck in the corner ready to eat those shatters
None of them give you a safe 50/50 after or break armor however, also all that shit has DEFINITELY been known since month 1, i thought you were saying that new discovered tech is what propels him to be OP, you cant use this shit to justify nerfs


Also, optimal placement of the Clone for shatters + armor breaking has definitely been known. Just cause its new tech for TB during his practice sessions with PL and cdjr, doesn't mean its new to everyone else, Toms been pretty adamantly against listening to anyones advice about sub forever bro, and him now boasting about Sub being top tier about it is one thing, whether or not it lets the Grandmaster of sub zero players actually make an impact in the competitive scene this season is another thing. Remember when Kenshi got buffed and Pig said he was top 5? Tom has proved many times hes far from infallible, and the "top tier" is pretty subjective at the moment as is. I don't think Sub is top tier at all and there is even less to suggest it other than Tom saying so, and you agreeing with everything he says regardless, so lets stop acting like its a fact hes top tier cause that aint even close to cemented at all. Sub got kneejerk nerfs once before in this game and did last game too lets just chill for a minute and wait and see if hes even top 10
 
None of them give you a safe 50/50 after or break armor however, also all that shit has DEFINITELY been known since month 1, i thought you were saying that new discovered tech is what propels him to be OP, you cant use this shit to justify nerfs
Dude, I know. You said Sub Zero can't use shatter combos unless you carry them to the corner, then land a 50/50 into a full combo, then set up the clone. I said you don't have to do this because you can just set up the clone with a string into it. It doesn't matter if they don't give you a safe 50/50 or break armor, I'm just saying that shatter combos can be done at this point, meaning they are more commonly used than you originally suggested. I never said this is what overpowers him, I'm just countering your point.

You haven't shown me any proof that armor breaking with b2 has been known. That's beside the point though, because I don't fucking care. This is such an irrelevant topic, I really don't give a fuck when it was discovered. All I'm saying is that it without a doubt makes Sub top tier in my opinion. I don't think this because Tom said it either, stop making these retarded assumptions about me based on absolutely nothing. I think it because it's common sense. He can break practically every armored move in the game with a launcher into a 40% combo for no meter into another safe clone setup into another armor breaking opportunity. He's A+ tier at the least obviously, possibly S tier, I don't know, but it doesn't matter because all A+ and above characters are overpowered in my opinion. They all need to be very slightly nerfed. All Sub Zero needs is a slight damage nerf and I've provided logical reasons for why that is and why f12 and b2 should be the moves to get their damage nerfed.
 
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God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Sub Zero needs is a slight damage nerf and I've provided logical reasons for why that is
You and I have different definitions of logical then

apologies for the assumptions about you just parroting tom, they are unnecessary, I just get the impression from this thread and the last one i saw you in where u kept whiteknighting for him in there too for lack of a better term, and one of you recurring arguments seems to be that "Tom said its this way and so it must be". I wont mention it again tho, but I don't think we should be nerfing sub based on this shit is all

I'd give you video proof of the sub at my local using it, but you already countered that with "thats just some random sub" and I'm sure you'd say the same about anyone else in here saying the same, perhaps one of the members more familiar with the subzero forum could link you to one of the discussions about it because I know ive seen it myself when i was lurking