Question - Grandmaster apology about last buff thread

[Goat-City]

You and I have different definitions of logical then

apologies for the assumptions about you just parroting tom, they are unnecessary, I just get the impression from this thread and the last one i saw you in where u kept whiteknighting for him in there too for lack of a better term, and one of you recurring arguments seems to be that "Tom said its this way and so it must be". I wont mention it again tho, but I don't think we should be nerfing sub based on this shit is all

I'd give you video proof of the sub at my local using it, but you already countered that with "thats just some random sub" and I'm sure you'd say the same about anyone else in here saying the same, perhaps one of the members more familiar with the subzero forum could link you to one of the discussions about it because I know ive seen it myself when i was lurking

I appreciate the apology. Anyways, I want to know how being able to armor break most armored wakeups off a relatively safe overhead launcher into a 45% combo into another safe clone setup doesn't make him top tier. Even YOMI agrees he's A+ tier. This is extreme downplaying on your part, especially when the nerfs I'm asking for are very minor on top of the fact that I also agreed that he should have all his issues fixed AND he should get the b33 meterless ice ball buff. With the nerfs I'm requesting he'd still be getting 40% off an overhead for no meter into a safe setup and 38% meterless off the low, again with a safe setup. You're ignoring how valuable a safe clone setup is after such hugely damaging combos for no meter. I'd gladly sacrifice 10% damage or more for a safe clone setup, but right now we only need to sacrifice 2%.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

29% meterless with all that corner carry is fine, you've got to factor in the corner carry. 45% meterless off a safe overhead that can't be armored through and 40% off a safe unreactable low is unheard of. Sub is top tier, if you don't realize he's top tier then you're not playing him correctly. He needs a slight damage nerf without a doubt. You can get your opponent in the corner easily with him, and once he's in there it might as well be game over. Madzin has proven he's top tier and he doesn't even use his corner tech to its fullest potential.

Madzin is a top tier player, that doesn't make sub zero a top tier character. Madzin uses blood God, is blood god OP now? I'm well aware he's a monster in the corner, he should be because he is average at midscreen. A+ is appropriate for sub zero. I don't know of an S tier character with that many horrible matchups. How many 3-7s does kung lao have?

 

[Goat-City]

Madzin is a top tier player, that doesn't make sub zero a top tier character. Madzin uses blood God, is blood god OP now? I'm well aware he's a monster in the corner, he should be because he is average at midscreen. A+ is appropriate for sub zero. I don't know of an S tier character with that many horrible matchups. How many 3-7s does kung lao have?

Right, but I already explained what makes Sub Zero a top tier character. I mentioned Madzin because of his success with the character despite the fact that he never set up the clone properly, meaning he never used the the crazy armor breaking tech and still dominated with him for a time. And are you saying Sub Zero loses some match ups 7-3? I guarantee you he doesn't. He might have 2 or 3 losing 6-4 match ups but that's it.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Right, but I already explained what makes Sub Zero a top tier character. I mentioned Madzin because of his success with the character despite the fact that he never set up the clone properly, meaning he never used the the crazy armor breaking tech and still dominated with him for a time. And are you saying Sub Zero loses some match ups 7-3? I guarantee you he doesn't. He might have 2 or 3 losing 6-4 match ups but that's it.

3-7 or worse against swarm dvorah and summoner Quan. Aftershock and HQT are pretty fucking horrible as well. A top tier character wouldn't get bodied like that. A+ makes way more sense than S he's really good but not freaking top. Come on.

 

[God Confirm]

As for making b2 7% damage instead of 9%, currently Sub Zero can get a 38% combo in the corner off a raw overhead without the use of a clone shatter or meter, 36% if you want the safe clone setup. That's too much considering how high tier he is with his armor breaking tech. Not even Warlock Quan Chi can get that much damage off his overhead for a bar.

Actually Warlock gets between 40-45% for a bar off a faster and safer overhead which can go into pressure on block if you ex the rune

Lastly, b2 from behind the clone in the corner might not be completely safe, but it requires a 12 frame or faster forward advancing EX reversal attack to punish it, which few characters have, and even if they do have it, unless it's a launcher it's not really worth it.

Heres the list of characters with at least one non-poke PUNISH for a blocked B2 from behind the Clone, using "tom bradys" spacing tech. FTR I hate calling it Tom Brady's but I'm doing it here just so that we are all on the same page with what I'm referring to

Lao
Jax
Sonya
Kenshi
Kitana
Scorpion
Sub-Zero
Jacqui
Kung Jin
Tanya
Shinnok
Kano
Johnny Cage
Erron Black
Reptile
Quan Chi
Ermac
Ferra Torr
DVorah
Raiden



Heres a list of the characters that can't

Mileena (gets a JiP into whatever she wants which is a mix-up so gets something at least)
Takeda (goes straight into his really strong pressure game tho)
Cassie (makes up for it by being able to armor through everything Sub does without getting broken by anything, a worthwhile trade, shes probably better off than everyone else in fact so doesn't really count)
Liu Kang (although the frame data indicated that ex-iAFB might do it, I don't have the skills to check tho so we'll put this in here)
Predator (gets a D4 so gets out of the corner and fully gets his game started at least, but I did specify no pokes so I'll give you this one)


untested characters:
Goro
Jason
Kotal

The first two I don't own, the second one I did test but I can't for the life of me remember if I could punish it or not (i just tested entire cast this one is a little fuzzy) if he does have one it was a little abstract and hard execution so call it a no AFAIK




Basically almost every character in the game punishes B2 WITH clone out

 

[Goat-City]

Actually Warlock gets between 40-45% for a bar off a faster and safer overhead which can go into pressure on block if you ex the rune



Heres the list of characters with at least one non-poke PUNISH for a blocked B2 from behind the Clone, using "tom bradys" spacing tech. FTR I hate calling it Tom Brady's but I'm doing it here just so that we are all on the same page with what I'm referring to

Lao
Jax
Sonya
Kenshi
Kitana
Scorpion
Sub-Zero
Jacqui
Kung Jin
Tanya
Shinnok
Kano
Johnny Cage
Erron Black
Reptile
Ermac
Ferra Torr
DVorah
Raiden
Quan Chi


Heres a list of the characters that can't

Mileena (gets a JiP into whatever she wants which is a mix-up so gets something at least)
Takeda (goes straight into his really strong pressure game tho)
Cassie (makes up for it by being able to armor through everything Sub does without getting broken by anything, a worthwhile trade shes probably better off than everyone else so doesn't really count)
Liu Kang (although the frame data indicated that ex-iAFB might do it, I don't have the skills to check tho so we'll put this in here)
Predator (gets a D4 so gets out of the corner and fully gets his game started at least, but I did specify no pokes so I'll give you this one)


untested characters:
Goro
Jason
Kotal

The first two I don't own, the second one I did test but I can't for the life of me remember if I could punish it or not (i just tested entire cast this one is a little fuzzy) if he does have one it was a little abstract and hard execution so call it a no AFAIK




Basically almost every character in the game punishes B2 WITH clone out

Yeah you're right about Warlock, I forgot. Still takes a bar though. What are some of these characters punishing with? I need to test it myself.

 

[Goat-City]

3-7 or worse against swarm dvorah and summoner Quan. Aftershock and HQT are pretty fucking horrible as well. A top tier character wouldn't get bodied like that. A+ makes way more sense than S he's really good but not freaking top. Come on.

Alright I'll take your word for it.

 

[God Confirm]

Yeah you're right about Warlock, I forgot. Still takes a bar though. What are some of these characters punishing with? I need to test it myself.

You want me to list like 20 different punishes? test them for yourself if you get stuck on one I'll tell you what it was

I didn't even check for optimal punishes for plenty of them i just checked who could

 

[Goat-City]

You want me to list like 20 different punishes? test them for yourself if you get stuck on one I'll tell you what it was

I didn't even check for optimal punishes for plenty of them i just checked who could

I said some, not 20.

 

[Goat-City]

You want me to list like 20 different punishes? test them for yourself if you get stuck on one I'll tell you what it was

I didn't even check for optimal punishes for plenty of them i just checked who could

Ok I checked a few and you're right so I believe you on the rest. I'm not sure if Mileena gets the JIP guaranteed, Sub might be able to frost bomb anti air it but I'm not sure how to test that. I'll test more later and see what I think afterwards.

 

[crosshair271]

We have a dedicated thread about B2 punishes Klone out or not. This was to teach both parties on how to play as Sub and how to play against him.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/list-of-all-b2-punishes.54355/

All the Sub-Zero players knew hiding behind Klone and doing an attack would break armor somehow. It was an inherent thing and it just so happened to sweeten the deal with shatter scenarios. Once again you're asking for nerfs to his damage when it takes 3 prerequisites to gain that damage. Yet Kung Lao can get that off a stray hit. It's fine if you want to equalize all characters damage but Kung Lao can still open up and pressure the opponent which Sub cannot do so easily. So when he does get the hit now his damage has been lowered keeping Kung Lao still above him. You have to factor in other things besides damage output.

And you keep saying this is unbeatable and it snuffs all armored wake-up. Guess what? You don't have to armor wake-up every time, why would you if you know it will get beat? I keep telling you alternate methods of beating the tech and it doesn't involve wake-up armor. You know what also beats wake-up armor? A raw block while hovering over the opponent then punish them. You keep shutting down small things like EX leg grab because it doesn't lead to a combo or big damage for a bar. It is crucial to disrupt Sub's corner traps in any way. Tech rolling also will disrupt the B2 setup or even the other setups. Tech roll then block or delay wake-up and block. Guess what? You've burned a lot of the Klone's active time and it will soon go away after the B2. Sub cannot cancel B2 if blocked and has to recover, the Klone will most likely be shattered if he cancels his other strings which resets the neutral, teched throw will not pull them into Klone due to spacing being wider. Off B2 he doesn't have enough time to pressure again because he is recovering and Klone disappears. He has basically 1 attempt from this setup then has to regain control if it failed. Also he cannot just keep spamming Klone like he used at launch. So he can't keep the control as easily. The Sub player has to make the correct read and reaction as well as the opponent, it is not guaranteed.

I'd give Grandmaster Sub-Zero a solid A-. Minus for his flaws and bad matchups. In the right hands and with perfect play he is terrifying.

 

[RM Ree]

I'd be a little surprised if GM saw any nerfs in KP2. Especially after they already looked over him in the last patch, only giving him the validity check fix.

 

[crosshair271]

Aside from metered B2 reversals I just found delaying wake-up causes a whiffed B2 which you capitalize on the recovery frames and he is standing in front of the Klone. You can poke him and make him block to remove Klone, do a string to make him block and remove Klone and push him back, you can grab him, you can punish the whiffed B2 for a full string.

Tech rolling is different because you may have to block at first but the same idea applies.

I tried with Hell-Fire Scorpion and I could get out or neutralize the scenario using both teleports, leg grabs, crouching punch, standing punches, grabs.
I tried with Dragon-Fire Liu Kang and I could get out or neutralize the scenario using his crouching punch, standing punches, grabs. His specials aren't as good although I may have miss timed them.
I tried with War-God Kotal Kahn and I could get out or neutralize the scenario using his crouching punch, grabs. His normals and specials are extremely slow to punish.

Point is you can get a punish or cause a block to remove Klone and reset the neutral or gain advantage. You just have to test individual characters + variations + moves + wake-up options(wake-up special, delay short, delay long, tech) and find the best choice.

 

[RM Ree]

Aside from metered B2 reversals I just found delaying wake-up causes a whiffed B2 which you capitalize on the recovery frames and he is standing in front of the Klone. You can poke him and make him block to remove Klone, do a string to make him block and remove Klone and push him back, you can grab him, you can punish the whiffed B2 for a full string.

Tech rolling is different because you may have to block at first but the same idea applies.

I tried with Hell-Fire Scorpion and I could get out or neutralize the scenario using both teleports, leg grabs, crouching punch, standing punches, grabs.
I tried with Dragon-Fire Liu Kang and I could get out or neutralize the scenario using his crouching punch, standing punches, grabs. His specials aren't as good although I may have miss timed them.
I tried with War-God Kotal Kahn and I could get out or neutralize the scenario using his crouching punch, grabs. His normals and specials are extremely slow to punish.

Point is you can get a punish or cause a block to remove Klone and reset the neutral or gain advantage. You just have to test individual characters + variations + moves + wake-up options(wake-up special, delay short, delay long, tech) and find the best choice.

I think Tom made a short video addressing this. It's a newer post in his thread you're referencing.

 

[crosshair271]

I think Tom made a short video addressing this. It's a newer post in his thread you're referencing.

Yeah I know and it also states that the attack has to connect meaning the Sub made the correct choice and the opponent didn't. Also that dummy didn't block and do a reversal. When he hovered over the delaying opponent he could have been armored because his attack wasn't out. It is not guaranteed like Goat makes it seem like.

 

[Ze Dingo]

How about, outside of bug fixes, we leave Grandmaster alone, hm?

Let's help Unbreakable be actually relevant, along with Kenshi and others.

 

[boba_buster]

How about, outside of bug fixes, we leave Grandmaster alone, hm?

Let's help Unbreakable be actually relevant, along with Kenshi and others.

Yea!!!

 

[Dankster Morgan]

How about, outside of bug fixes, we leave Grandmaster alone, hm?

Let's help Unbreakable be actually relevant, along with Kenshi and others.

Word