An Untameable idea about Jade (3rd variation)

[pod_Cagava]

Hi all - occasional poster here

I want to share some thoughts on Jade's Untameable variation, and ideas on some tweaks after ~a month in play. Feedback is welcomed!

Jade has clear purpose in 2 previous variations (fireball everywhere; rush down Pole Vault being more nuanced).

The Untameable variation showcases staff moves that have multiple purposes, all requiring patient reads.

• Deadly Assassin extends combos for punishes;
• Vanishing Wind checks low at (short) range that’s non-reflect-able, non-parry-able, and amp to switch position to avoid zoning and corners;
• Divine Forces reflects 1-2 projectiles, while anti air-projectiles and jump-in (with amp) to juggle into the extended combos (though almost impossible to set up)

Her core kit has:

• Temptation (counters pressure and mind games)
• Razor-rang (delayed projectile that hits behind - then flies off with speed)
  • great for countering teleports as Rang hit is +7, and we can amp it if we feel we may mis-time it to be safe on block
• Deadly Butterfly (moves Jade forward while carrying opponent)
• Dodging Shadows (allows Jade regular movement to close in on a zoner)
• Nitro Kick (moves Jade forward while creating space)
• D2 (it controls her air space)

Jade is more like 20-20-20-20-20 five-move winner if we take out amp Razor-rang as a combo extender (and it's not reliable). Her combos doesn't link into KBs naturally. Yes, it means more work than 33-33-33% traditional combo characters. Her kit has tools to get a ~20% momentum-change with a parry or a planned KB. She demands a strong fundamentals game - defense, chip, punish, space, movement, throws (which is really an overhead if opponents crouch blocks)

Her KBs all put mind games in:

• bait throw escape (put fear on using throw escape);
• starting combos from afar (is that a 124?);
• amp parry d1s three times (and neutral becomes harder);
• bait ducking a Nitro Kick from a Pole Vault run;
• a great d2 that easily punishes opponent...

Each KB gets you ~1/5 to 1/4 of the way - and can combo to pad the damage.


With the ideas above, here are some tweaks to moves in this variation:

Vanishing Wind

• It’s not a projectile, but serves a similar function as ED’s Edenian Spark (ranged low projectile)
  
• Tweaks:
  • a longer range (just outside d4), with less pushback the further away (so slow startup won't be easily punished)
  • make it 2 frames faster so it can combo from strings more reliably (but won't compete with D3 and D4)
  • make it hit juggled opponents (vertical hit box too)
• This range allows Jade to check at mid range with a low (her core space control game) that leads into pressure / combo as it doesn't knock down
• It’s still won't make it a 50/50 (I understand 50/50 can drive people mad)
• This adjustment allows combo with B2 at a longer range; adding consistency to jail into B2; or cancel after B2 for a low that baits gap punish on B2124 - with push back that resets the range to Jade’s favour, hit or blocked
• If Jade is designed to control mid-range space, then let her have identifiable strings/attacks that jail a blocking opponent back into that range - and the turn is open again for both players
• This range and B2 makes Deadly Assassin b2124 works at mid range, once opponent is afraid to interrupt B2 into specials (Can be argued that even at current range, Vanishing Wind already trains opponent to respect B2, 3, or 4 cancels)

Divine Force

• Divine Force is a Dodging Shadow with additional offensive use
• Tweaks
  • let amp version be triggered anytime during the animation. This will make it a solid anti-air juggle starter that can’t be overused
• it adds more air control as it reflects Jumping projectiles - and if we can amp it anytime, the jump-kick-into-projectile attacks can be dealt with by amping twice (can't be abused, but opponent has to respect that option)
• Side notes:
  • Against long range projectile - wait for opponent to commit:
    • single / double = Divine Force;
    • seeing amp (Frost, Shang Tsung, etc) = switch to Vanishing Wind (db press 3 instead of 2) amped;
    • opponents jump in after we fell for a projectile and committed to DF = timed amp to pop them up
  • If we expect projectile at mid range - check with B2 (high) or B4 (low). This is Jade’s space
  • Mix with Deadly Butterfly (similar start-up animation) to confuse opponent with full-screen move who can also throw projectile (Jacqui, etc). Have them pop up by Deadly Butterfly for combo

Deadly Assassin

• Tweak:
  • Add Delia’s Dance as the last hit of 3,2,2, d1. Allow it to amp
• This fuse makes the string a good punisher, and it can amp to make opponent stand up for more mind games
• 3,2,2 cancel into Vanishing Wind to be safe and/or reset to mid range
• 3,2,2 stagger into throw for pressure
• This fuse keeps Delia’s Dance in a narrow application, so the variation isn’t overpowered; and we get to use DD!

Additional ideas on strings:

• instead of enhancing 4,3 with a 2:
  • enhance f4,1 so f4 hits twice in rapid sequence as mid-overhead, and 1 has the same pushback as the 2 in 4,3,2 (can even have the same animation!)
    • the f4.1 string now does essentially the same function as 4,3,2: a decent damage change-up string, with the bonus of being an advancing string that hops over lows - more assassin-like movement
    • the overhead gives Jade a tool to open up turtles (where throws are risky on neutral duck) without giving her a 50/50 or a low starter
    • it removes the predictability of a low 2nd hit in her strings (1,2,4; 4,3,2)
    • f4 can be canceled into a Vanishing Wind low with no gap (toying with predictable low mind games) or finish as a pushback mid - at different frames to hit, so hard to react with flawless blocks
  • this give f4,1 a reason to exist as a trio of strings (B2124 as a range check into hit string; 3,2,2,d1 as punisher; f4,1 as mind games and range reset)
  • 4,3's high-low change-up is covered by 1,2 (also cancelable); its damage covered by f4,1

So this variation’s purpose is sound - a deeper-read punisher who has tools for situations. Vanishing Wind needs a bit more range, and user-triggered amp for Divine Forces. The combos would flow with this range increase on Vanishing Wind, and are worth it as punisher with Delia’s Dance added. At least, that’s my surface observation

Thank you for the long read!

 

[GLoRToR]

Hi all - occasional poster here

I want to share some thoughts on Jade's Untameable variation, and ideas on some tweaks after ~a month in play. Feedback is welcomed!

Jade has clear-purpose moves in 2 previous variations (fireball everywhere; rush down Pole Vault being more nuanced). Untameable showcases staff moves that have multiple purposes, all requiring patient reads.

• Deadly Assassin extends combos for punishes;
• Vanishing Wind checks low at (short) mid range that’s non-reflect-able, non-parry-able, and amp to switch position to avoid zoning and corners;
• Divine Forces reflects 1-2 projectiles, while anti air-projectiles and jump-in (with amp) to juggle into the extended combos (though almost impossible to set up)

Her core kit has:

• Temptation (counters pressure and mind games)
• Razor-rang (delayed projectile that hits behind - then flies off with speed)
  • great for countering teleports as Rang hit is +7, and we can amp it if we feel we may mis-time it to be safe on block
• Deadly Butterfly (moves Jade forward while carrying opponent)
• Dodging Shadows (allows Jade regular movement to close in on a zoner)
• Nitro Kick (moves Jade forward while creating space)
• D2 (it controls her air space)

Jade is more like 20-20-20-20-20 five-move winner if we take out amp Razor-rang as a combo extender (and it's not reliable). Her combos doesn't link into KBs naturally. Yes, it means more work than 33-33-33% traditional combo characters. Her kit has tools to get a ~20% momentum-change with a counter punch or a planned KB. She demands a strong fundamentals game - defense, chip, punish, space, movement, throws (which is really an overhead if opponents crouch blocks)

Her KBs all put mind games in - bait throw escape and choose the wrong one (or fear throw escape); starting combos from afar (is that a 124?); amp parry d1s; bait ducking a Nitro Kick from a Pole Vault run; a great d2 that easily punishes opponent...each KB gets you ~1/5 to 1/4 of the way - and can combo to pad the damage.

Some ideas on moves in this variation:

Vanishing Wind

• It’s not a projectile, but serves a similar function as ED’s Edenian Spark (ranged low hit)
• let Vanishing Wind have a longer range (just outside d4), with less pushback the further away (instead of faster start up as that would compete with D3 and D4; longer range means slow startup won’t be as readily punished)
• This range allows Jade to check at mid range with a low (her core space control game) that leads into pressure / combo as it doesn't knock down
• It’s still not a 50/50 (I understand 50/50 can drive people mad)
• This adjustment allows combo with B2 at a longer range, adding consistency to jail into B2 (and cancel into special move for mind games), or cancel after B2 (for a low that baits gap punish on B2124), with push back that resets the range to Jade’s favour - hit or blocked
• If Jade is designed to control mid-range space, then let her have identifiable strings/attacks that jail a blocking opponent back into that range - and the turn is open again for the taking by both players
• This range and B2 link makes Deadly Assassin b2124 works at mid range, once opponent is afraid to interrupt B2 into specials (Can be argued that even at current range, Vanishing Wind already trains opponent to respect B2, 3, or 4 cancels into special move)

Divine Forces

• Divine Forces is a Dodging Shadow with additional offensive use
• One change - let amp version be triggered anytime during the animation. This will make it a solid anti-air juggle starter that can’t be overused
• it adds more air control as it reflects Jumping projectiles - and if we can amp it anytime, the jump-kick-into-projectile attacks can be dealt with by amping twice (again, can't be abused, but opponent has to respect that option)
• Against long range projectile - wait for opponent to commit:
  • single / double = Divine Forces;
  • seeing amp (Frost, Shang Tsung, etc) = switch to Vanishing Wind (db press 3 instead of 2) amped;
  • opponents jump in after we fell for a projectile and committed to DF = timed amp to pop them up
• If we expect projectile at mid range - check with B2 (high) or B4 (low). This is Jade’s space
• Mix with Deadly Butterfly (similar start-up animation) to confuse opponent with full-screen move who can also throw projectile (Jacqui, etc). Have them pop up by Deadly Butterfly (or you are really quick, DF anytime-amp) for combo

Deadly Assassin

• Fuse Delia’s Dance as the last hit of 3,2,2, d1. Allow it to amp
• This fuse makes the string a good punisher, and it can amp to make opponent stand up for more mind games
• 3,2,2 cancel into Vanishing Wind to be safe and/or reset to mid range
• 3,2,2 stagger into throw for pressure
• This fuse keeps Delia’s Dance in a narrow application, so the variation isn’t overpowered; and we get to use DD!
• let 3,2,2, d1 come out on whiff
  • This gives an advancing string outside of her usual (F21, b343, 124) that includes a low
• instead of enhancing 4,3 with a 2:
  • enhance f4,1 so f4 hits twice in rapid sequence as mid-overhead, and 1 has the same pushback as the 2 in 4,3,2 (can even have the same animation!)
    • the f4.1 string now does essentially the same function as 4,3,2: a decent damage change-up string, with the bonus of being an advancing string that hops over lows - more assassin-like movement
    • the overhead gives Jade a tool to open up turtles (where throws are risky on neutral duck) without giving her a 50/50 or a low starter
    • it removes the predictability of a low 2nd hit in her strings (1,2,4; 4,3,2)
    • f4 can be canceled into a Vanishing Wind low with no gap (toying with predictable low mind games) or finish as a pushback mid - at different frames to hit, so hard to react with flawless blocks
  • this give f4,1 a reason to exist as a trio of strings (B2124 as a range check into hit string; 3,2,2,d1 as punisher; f4,1 as mind games and range reset)
  • 4,3's high-low change-up is covered by 1,2 (also cancelable); its damage covered by f4,1

So this variation’s purpose is sound - a deeper-read punisher who has tools for situations. Vanishing Wind needs a bit more range, and user-triggered amp for Divine Forces. The combos would flow with this range increase on Vanishing Wind, and are worth it as punisher with Delia’s Dance added. At least, that’s my surface observation

Thank you for the long read!

Nice breakdown but you are missing the fact that vW meterburn is reactable. They can jump up and kill you on the way down every single time. Not a read, not an if. They just do, because it's slow and a low that, unlike Scorpion's mb teleport, not only doesn't launch but doesn't anti-air either.

vW meterburn is literally the worst teleport in the game but it's okay because she already has the worst advancing special, the worst parry, the worst d1 and the worst 11f mid in the game so it's not like it's news.

 

[DeftMonk]

Nice breakdown but you are missing the fact that vW meterburn is reactable. They can jump up and kill you on the way down every single time. Not a read, not an if. They just do, because it's slow and a low that, unlike Scorpion's mb teleport, not only doesn't launch but doesn't anti-air either.

vW meterburn is literally the worst teleport in the game but it's okay because she already has the worst advancing special, the worst parry, the worst d1 and the worst 11f mid in the game so it's not like it's news.

i didn’t really understand the OP very well but I think he was saying some ways that the variation should be changed not in its current form? Because for sure in its current form it’s nothing like edenian spark. Busting out the low teleport yolo from a distance means 90% chance u just ate ate a neutral 2 into a big ass chunk of damage.

 

[GLoRToR]

i didn’t really understand the OP very well but I think he was saying some ways that the variation should be changed not in its current form? Because for sure in its current form it’s nothing like edenian spark. Busting out the low teleport yolo from a distance means 90% chance u just ate ate a neutral 2 into a big ass chunk of damage.

He's trying to sound positive about something that has nothing positive about it.

 

[pod_Cagava]

Appreciate the responses guys

Yes @DeftMonk, I am thinking of ways to improve the variation that can be done by dev relatively easily (partial dev myself), while changing enough to be attractive to players.

@GLoRToR if VW has 2 modes, one is teleport without a hit and good enough recovery to contest; the other (holding amp) would reappear at the same spot after the same fade, with invincibility during the teleport? I thought about distances, but that doesn’t feel like Jade can do that (where Raiden can).

 

[GLoRToR]

Appreciate the responses guys

Yes @DeftMonk, I am thinking of ways to improve the variation that can be done by dev relatively easily (partial dev myself), while changing enough to be attractive to players.

@GLoRToR if VW has 2 modes, one is teleport without a hit and good enough recovery to contest; the other (holding amp) would reappear at the same spot after the same fade, with invincibility during the teleport? I thought about distances, but that doesn’t feel like Jade can do that (where Raiden can).

The problem is that the teleport is too slow and its hit region is too little. Scorpion's mb teleport you can't do anything about because it just launches you no matter what. You are forced to block and punish.
Jade's teleport costs a meter AND gets jumped and blown up on reaction.

 

[scarsunseen]

“Wiggle stick jailing tech”

I don't main Jade or anything. I think this is pretty good. DB3 on block is -4, so you're safe and can flawless block if you want. On hit, this jails into B2... so you could do..

B343-DB3, quick dash forward, B2124-DF2. (You have enough to confirm B2 into B2124 also.)

 

[pod_Cagava]

“Wiggle stick jailing tech”

I don't main Jade or anything. I think this is pretty good. DB3 on block is -4, so you're safe and can flawless block if you want. On hit, this jails into B2... so you could do..

B343-DB3, quick dash forward, B2124-DF2. (You have enough to confirm B2 into B2124 also.)

Thanks for the tech, Scarsunseen! Vanishing Wind's hit advantage and push back (and being safe on block) is something that's works well with Jade's moves. To me, Jade is different from the usual way of looking at damage through combos (starter > string > special link > ender). She plans ahead through hit advantage into the next move (namely Vanishing Wind as it keeps opponent standing), and compensate on non-guaranteed damage (since we don't combo as much) with safe(r) moves and strings (exception being staff string enders and core special moves) that allow us to restart the hit advantage momentum. I'll list some ideas in another post!

I did some testing and notice this: using Kitana and Scorpion, I wasn't able to jail them from VW into B2 if they do any of the following:

• duck (goes over)
• block (and punish :| )

So as long as the opponent tries to move horizontally or up, including a special move, B2 will connect

This is a good way to slow down the opponent, which works to Jade's advantage. If the opponent discovers blocking to counter, B2 into parry or VW (depending on opp frames) can keep us safe.

If they duck, we are in trouble, as B2 cannot cancel into anything without hit/block. This is where I would change up the pressure (say another B343) so the opponent can't predict our B2.

 

[Denny]

This all is to assume that you indeed land a hit with DB3.
In my experience the reality is that people block, break throw, and wait for you to slip up, usually mashing D1 and/or throws and then defeat you because their characters have a viable launcher into viable damage.

Hit advantage is nice, but we're talking about a Low that leads into a One Bar For A Kick In The Head On Reaction option.

I do not think we have any "tech" to talk about regarding Jade while she's such a subpar character in every possible regard from damage to hitboxes, from frame data to whiff issues.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

This variation sucks. Has too much gaps. Still, I got my ass destroyed by her cause something messed up my inputs lol

 

[Denny]

This variation sucks. Has too much gaps. Still, I got my ass destroyed by her cause something messed up my inputs lol

It's not the variation it's the character.
But I agree that this is by far her weakest.