An Honest look at Swamp Thing's possible buffs

[Kotal_Wannabe]

So, we all know swamp thing is bleh, but what can be done to improve him? I think he's basically a good character, but has some major problems that make him bottom 1. Don't want this to be another whiny 101 suggestions to create an OP monster like most of these buff threads, but here are what I think are the urgent issues

1) Make his f233 f23 link abit easier, right now it's a 1 frame link, not asking for super man levels of easy, but at the same time make it possible to land consistently. Give us a 3-4 frame link, still pretty tough but not stupid hard
2) Right now his f233 f23 whiffs on some characters, especially females, it needs to be sorted out.
3) Remove gap from f223
4) Give MB Bio-Fission (db3) more dmg, the damage is just pathetic right now
5) Decrease startup for green thumb from 13 to 10 frames in line with scarecrow
6) D2 should be 8 frames rather than 10
7) Standing 2 should be 20 frames rather than 30
8) First hit of standing 3 should be cancellable
9) Vines do half their damage on connection the other half if it isn't interrupted by projectile
10) Slightly more range on backdash
11) Trait either grows infront of him or heals swampy while stood inside it
12) Log is -6 or -7 on block

I think these few buffs will make swamp thing at least viable rather than tier bait as it is right now. I'll add more as long as they're not OP suggestions.

 

[freerf245]

*Remove the gap in f223 and b2323
*Give 113 a purpose (make it +?)
*Give the restand out of command grab
*Make the links off of f223 and b223 midscreen much more viable
*Make his standing 2 a 10 frame mid instead of the useless 30 frame overhead
*Make trait useful
*Mb biofission now works like Grundys swamp hands, giving him a new combo starter and a threat from full screen.
*biofission connects off of 11 and b12
*when swampy lands the vine grab he is fully immune to projectiles, making it so he doesnt lose the trade every time.
*b3 and f3 are +6 instead of 0
*some oki off of his damage ender out of command grab


These are just a few things out of dozens i would want. Im not saying he NEEDS every single one of these buffs, but a couple of them would be a start.

 

[Espio]

I understand he could use some stuff, but people asking for ridiculous shit like vine grab to be projectile immune or hit mid at full screen is insane (the mid thing isn't in this thread, but I've seen it in other places). It's an unblockable long ranged option, there should be some drawback to it.

If it became projectile immune, he can just grab you and you as a zoner pretty much would have to hold whatever. Stuff like that would be terrible design and hopefully never comes to fruition.

Grapplers are supposed to earn their way in, not get in with minimal effort and shut down all or most zoning. If you want to play a counter zoner instead of a grappler, there are options on the cast like Supergirl.

His command grab is 13 frames, there is nothing that needs to be tweaked speed wise. It would be different if it was actually slow, but it's not. Everyone doesn't need the same tools and frame data (they are two VERY different characters) especially when Scarecrow doesn't have a ranged grab that reaches near full screen on top of his faster command grab.

I hope the whiffing issues and some of the string gaps get fixed because those are super sensible changes. The goal with balance suggestions should be to make a more balanced game, not throw the balance off the rails in a different direction. His range is incredibly good, you take away the ability to keep him out and he just dominates the neutral against people whose best chance is to keep away.

Every zoner isn't like Deadshot.

 

[myri]

Hey now, asking for damage increases, removal of gaps and better frame data? I think you're asking a bit much.

 

[SaSSolino]

Hey now, asking for damage increases, removal of gaps and better frame data? I think you're asking a bit much.

oh god

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

All hail to monster from the swamp! And let's Paulo mercy his soul sorry for mey engrish

 

[chr1sam]

trait has less recovery/heals swamp thing when he stands in it
- this will make it useful against zoners, right now it only really useful against characters that have to come to swamp thing, which is only a handful of characters because most have better zoning than swamp thing

change the input of his anti-air vine grab to down back 1(make log down forward 3)
- will make it a lot easier to use this to anti air

reduce startup on several normal (b/f3, 2, back 1)
- will make his 50/50 actually viable to use and make his mb f/b3 a viable defensive option

make the restand off his command grab +5 instead of +1
- this will actually give swamp thing a reason to use this option(right now the only time it makes sense to use this is when you have the opponent in the corner with your trait under them, which is a very rare situation)

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

I understand he could use some stuff, but people asking for ridiculous shit like vine grab to be projectile immune or hit mid at full screen is insane (the mid thing isn't in this thread, but I've seen it in other places). It's an unblockable long ranged option, there should be some drawback to it.

If it became projectile immune, he can just grab you and you as a zoner pretty much would have to hold whatever. Stuff like that would be terrible design and hopefully never comes to fruition.

Grapplers are supposed to earn their way in, not get in with minimal effort and shut down all or most zoning. If you want to play a counter zoner instead of a grappler, there are options on the cast like Supergirl.

Why did you feel the need to go off on a rant labeling as ridiculous and insane a suggestion I clearly listed as possible and open to debate. As a mod you're not setting a very good example for the rest of the community with the way you argued your point.Just state your opinion, you can save the retorts for people who are actually being unreasonable with their counter points, jumping the gun at this point just sets a bad tone.

 

[MadPropz101]

All hail to monster from the swamp! And let's Paulo mercy his soul sorry for mey engrish

I'm dying lmao

 

[EntropicByDesign]

All hail to monster from the swamp! And let's Paulo mercy his soul sorry for mey engrish

I would really like to understand this song.

 

[Raynex]

The Vine Grab doesn't need to hit at point blank, he has Green Thumb for range 0. It's specifically meant to be a ranged option. I think it's fine the way it is currently.

The biggest changes he needs to be viable IMO:

- F233 and B223 link > F2 should be slightly easier, and universal. His moves are slow and he has a tough time getting in, so he should be well compensated for chasing people down instead of having to do nigh impossible confirms that don't even work on the full cast.

- He needs a D2 as effective as Grundy's was. You can't be this slow, with such bad mobility, walking people to corners and shit, but then have them jump on you for free / have your D2 trade. He should have a strong AA game in his D2 if he's going to be given all these weaknesses imo.

- Make 113 cancellable so things like 113 xx Clone > F23 xx Vine Grab can work. His close-range punish game is lacking off his 8f 1 and 7f D1. He only gets damage from them if he does MB Tree, but he needs the meter for getting in and doing confirms as well.

- His jump should be less floaty. It holds him back from effectively fighting zoning characters, and it isn't great as a gap-closing option. Opponents can do 2-3 things in the span of our single jump.

- Make the first hit of st.3 cancellable like the first hit of D3 is. This would give him something other than F2 to rely on in mid-range/

- St.2 is 20f or something. Why is a standard overhead that slow? Should be faster.

- F3 / B3 being slow makes sense for their insane range. F3 especially, at certain ranges you can't crouch / jump / backdash and you have to take it. I still think they should a touch faster though.

- Trait needs a rework imo, I'm just not sure how they could change it. But currently it's useless at midscreen and that's a problem.

 

[Eldriken]

Why did you feel the need to go off on a rant labeling as ridiculous and insane a suggestion I clearly listed as possible and open to debate. As a mod you're not setting a very good example for the rest of the community with the way you argued your point.Just state your opinion, you can save the retorts for people who are actually being unreasonable with their counter points, jumping the gun at this point just sets a bad tone.

His response was fine and perfectly in line. I fail to see a problem here.

 

[Espio]

Why did you feel the need to go off on a rant labeling as ridiculous and insane a suggestion I clearly listed as possible and open to debate. As a mod you're not setting a very good example for the rest of the community with the way you argued your point.Just state your opinion, you can save the retorts for people who are actually being unreasonable with their counter points, jumping the gun at this point just sets a bad tone.

This is a discussion forum. You tell me it's all up for debate, but I give you my opinion and it's a rant and I need to set a better example because you don't like it lol.

Your opinion and my opinion are not above criticism and debate. Nobody attacked you personally so I don't need to set a better anything. I'm not gonna dance around that I feel many of the suggestions were poorly thought out. Can't argue why he needs absurd things, gotta bring up irrelevant things like, "lul you're a moderator".

If you think a near full screen command grab having projectile immunity isn't unreasonable that says enough. I don't wanna see any other characters get over buffed when they don't need to be like has happened in other games because people ask for things without any regard for how those changes will impact the roster.

 

[RNLDRGN]

I've said it before, and I mostly agree with @Raynex, but feel that Swamp could easily be overpowered if NRS gives him too many buffs. Here are the 3 big things I think he needs:

1. Attack speed.
-F3/B3: 35 frames is too slow--MB F/B3 attacks are almost always interrupted. 30-31 is much more effective, but still slow compared to most of the cast (28 frames). Note that this will make B223, BF3 MB, B3 much easier as well--right now it's probably the toughest link in the game.

-Stand 2 could be sped up 8 frames easily. Right now its almost useless.

-Green Thumb command grab should be 10 frames. This is in line with other command grab characters and really helps his tick throw game. Right now D2, Green Thumb is only true tick throw, folks are punishing D1, GT more and more often.

2. B223/F233 into F2. This link needs to be consistent and somewhat easier. Right now it's point blank only, on medium/big characters, and the link is mad tight. I'm okay with it being tough to space, but right now it's just silly. Speed up the recovery on B223/F233 on hit/whiff, but keep the block adv the same. This gives him decent meterless damage midscreen.

3. Consider making trait activate faster or stay out on hit (but deplete the trait meter). I'm not sure how to buff trait, but it needs an adjustment to be viable.

If he gets most or all of these he will instantly move to mid-tier. If he gets all of these + buffs to walkspeed, jump, or anything else he will be an absolute beast and ppl will start to see Swamp all over majors (what a sight!).

 

[Raynex]

I've said it before, and I mostly agree with @Raynex, but feel that Swamp could easily be overpowered if NRS gives him too many buffs. Here are the 3 big things I think he needs:

1. Attack speed.
-F3/B3: 35 frames is too slow--MB F/B3 attacks are almost always interrupted. 30-31 is much more effective, but still slow compared to most of the cast (28 frames). Note that this will make B223, BF3 MB, B3 much easier as well--right now it's probably the toughest link in the game.

-Stand 2 could be sped up 8 frames easily. Right now its almost useless.

-Green Thumb command grab should be 10 frames. This is in line with other command grab characters and really helps his tick throw game. Right now D2, Green Thumb is only true tick throw, folks are punishing D1, GT more and more often.

2. B223/F233 into F2. This link needs to be consistent and somewhat easier. Right now it's point blank only, on medium/big characters, and the link is mad tight. I'm okay with it being tough to space, but right now it's just silly. Speed up the recovery on B223/F233 on hit/whiff, but keep the block adv the same. This gives him decent meterless damage midscreen.

3. Consider making trait activate faster or stay out on hit (but deplete the trait meter). I'm not sure how to buff trait, but it needs an adjustment to be viable.

If he gets most or all of these he will instantly move to mid-tier. If he gets all of these + buffs to walkspeed, jump, or anything else he will be an absolute beast and ppl will start to see Swamp all over majors (what a sight!).

these are great. Right now he feels like a grappler that is just way too easy to zone / run away from.

I also think I came up with a reasonable suggestion for his trait.

- When activate trait normally, it extends as you walk forward. Pressing trait again stops this process. What if pressing trait a 3rd time made the moss swap sides and go in front of you, or something? With grapplers it's all about inching forwards, so if you found the time to activate trait and walk them down without getting hit, the moss should be quite long. Switching it in front of you would be cool i think

OR

- when he activates trait, the moss should extend behind him / where he's walking as usual, but it should also come out slightly in front of him (Green Thumb range) so he doesn't have to do silly cross-up corner combos to use it. This could open up things like Green Thumb~2 midscreen, use the frame advantage to trait, they wake up in trait

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

The Vine Grab doesn't need to hit at point blank, he has Green Thumb for range 0. It's specifically meant to be a ranged option. I think it's fine the way it is currently.

The biggest changes he needs to be viable IMO:

- F233 and B223 link > F2 should be slightly easier, and universal. His moves are slow and he has a tough time getting in, so he should be well compensated for chasing people down instead of having to do nigh impossible confirms that don't even work on the full cast.

- He needs a D2 as effective as Grundy's was. You can't be this slow, with such bad mobility, walking people to corners and shit, but then have them jump on you for free / have your D2 trade. He should have a strong AA game in his D2 if he's going to be given all these weaknesses imo.

- Make 113 cancellable so things like 113 xx Clone > F23 xx Vine Grab can work. His close-range punish game is lacking off his 8f 1 and 7f D1. He only gets damage from them if he does MB Tree, but he needs the meter for getting in and doing confirms as well.

- His jump should be less floaty. It holds him back from effectively fighting zoning characters, and it isn't great as a gap-closing option. Opponents can do 2-3 things in the span of our single jump.

- Make the first hit of st.3 cancellable like the first hit of D3 is. This would give him something other than F2 to rely on in mid-range/

- St.2 is 20f or something. Why is a standard overhead that slow? Should be faster.

- F3 / B3 being slow makes sense for their insane range. F3 especially, at certain ranges you can't crouch / jump / backdash and you have to take it. I still think they should a touch faster though.

- Trait needs a rework imo, I'm just not sure how they could change it. But currently it's useless at midscreen and that's a problem.

Some good point's there I've updated my post to add some of your changes.

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

This is a discussion forum. You tell me it's all up for debate, but I give you my opinion and it's a rant and I need to set a better example because you don't like it lol.

Your opinion and my opinion are not above criticism and debate. Nobody attacked you personally so I don't need to set a better anything. I'm not gonna dance around that I feel many of the suggestions were poorly thought out. Can't argue why he needs absurd things, gotta bring up irrelevant things like, "lul you're a moderator".

If you think a near full screen command grab having projectile immunity isn't unreasonable that says enough. I don't wanna see any other characters get over buffed when they don't need to be like has happened in other games because people ask for things without any regard for how those changes will impact the roster.

Well you've not given any reasoning for me to change it other than it would be "ridiculous insane and OP bruv"

If you read fully i'm not saying full projectile invincibility, because of course that would be OP, i'm saying PERHAPS a few frames 3 or 4, maybe towards the end. Given it has 24 frame startup, but it's open to rational debate.

I don't think a couple of frames would be OP. You're free to make a counter point with reasoning aslong it's not just nahhhhhhh that's insane maynnnnn

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

I would really like to understand this song.

 

[Madzin]

I have a couple of suggestions:

1.Trait
a)Let him regain Health while he stands in his trait.
-Reason to that is that opponent now has to come to Swamp Thing
b)Decrease start up frames
-Explanation?..

2.General Toolset
a)Let him have Black Adam damage output
-If you do that you dont really need to touch his kit
b) Decrease start up frames of his normals
-like suggested above

3.General Buffs
a) Increase Walkspeed a bit
b) Decrease the floatiness of the jump

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I am much happier now. #BuffJoey.

 

[DarksydeDash]

I don't play the character but I think a very simple change is give his log kick a MB option that is armored and knocks the opponent to Swampthing.

 

[masuhdunkillyall]

Hilariously I've been having better luck in ranked with swampy than my main, Bane. Presumably because people don't know the matchup, but I digress. My realistic wishlist for swampy and what I think he needs to compete (similar to many of this thread's opinions):

- Clone hits mid. MB clone made faster than regular clone.
This is a game changer. Allows us to harass hard zoners better, ups his close-up game and makes it more reliable when cancelling into clone up close on block. MB clone change is more quality of life; you shouldn't have to spend a bar to get a slower move than standard in order to get in and half the time get tagged by a projectile while your clone is grabbing the opponent.

- 113 can be special cancelled. 11 is important, pressing 3 is useless in all situations. #filltheswamp by letting us do something with the whole string.

- S2 startup frame reduction by 7 to 10 frames. Make this move and it's subsequent string useful.

- The link between f233 into f23 or b223 into f23 absolutely has to be easier. We need meterless damage; meter is too important with this character.

- F3/B3 are made faster. F3 also has a wonky hitbox that can miss aerial opponents when it looks as if it goes through them, fix that.

- Trait. I think a simple fix for now is just to heavily reduce its recovery, opening up new setup options off strings and possibly allowing us to continue to combo midscreen (especially combined with all the above changes). More can be done if that isn't enough.

Bonus

- More tick throws. Gimmie dem.

 

[Superman64]

I dont main swamp thing but the little time i put playing with him was
f223 should be special canclble so he can get some meterless damage
mb clone grap should hold them their like grundy stomp did in I1 and be a mid
st2 should have start up 10f faster and f3 and b3 faster as well

 

[SwagMountains]

Honestly, speed thumb up to 10, make b2 and f2 start up 2 frames faster and make trait slowly extend forward from swamp thing rather than follow him. If he only had these changes he'd be great imo

 

[ohshootmybad]

1. A Back + MB after Vine Grab hits that pulls opponent towards Swamp Thing for no damage, but stun that'll allow some potential counters to runaway/zoning opponents and gives some mid-screen trait options.

2. F + Trait that starts it off in front of you at almost F2 range to add to his mid-screen pressure game, as a more aggressive option. Balance it out by not allowing trait to expand while walking forward/backward.