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After jumping back into tekken I think MK should further copy some of tekken's base mechanics. Thoughts?

DeftMonk

Noob
So hear me out as this would be quite a big change. The 2 reasons I think this is a good idea is #1 imo it would lead to more interesting footsies (maybe only slight improvement here) but also #2 the main gripe almost all my friends have with NRS games is "d1 d3 20 times a match looks hella dumb bro... is there no other option for me here to steal turn? If I make a read I want it to be obvious I am a superior player not just some d1 spamming nrs player... also animation looks dumb as hell".

In tekken crouching lows are almost always negative on hit. Used mainly as pokes from a distance u dont need to worry about eating pressure from or as a round ender. I think if d3 was negative on hit , d1 was at most 0 and they added a new move similar to tekken df1 which was slightly slower than 1, led to decent + to mount whatever pressure you wanted but still got beat by standing 1.... mk11 would be perfect. You could contest crouching characters or d2 with every character into pressure... no lame ass d1 spam or poke throw... people would be standing more and shimmying. What do you guys thing?
 

Jbog

Noob
Agree d1 d3 is mega (soap bar in my mouth) gameplay wose especially on the internet with this (soap bar in my mouth) block recovery frames! Also wave dash is (soap bar in my mouth) just go back to mk9 standard dash cancel it made spamming projectiles way more risky. Stead of this walkback wif meta its relly boring most charters lack anything to really"open anyone up" the block recovery thing is still the biggest problem its why the poke bs exists
 

Jbog

Noob
If you could punish the minuus d1 or actually a d1 minus ended your turn the game would really take off. But instead they leave the stupod block recovery and make peole struggle and get counter poked out of a minus 10 plus combo its simply stupid. Online its like a 50 percent punish on 100 percent full combo punish moves it makes matches super dull turn into poke fest
 

DeftMonk

Noob
ya i think if they added a standing universal mid as a check poke and took that away from d1 d3. Those just kinda became like OH SHIT NEED TO LOW PROFILE THIS or some such it would be a completely different game. Now the upclose game involves an assload of crouching and those 2 moves are the standard for stealing turns/interrupt. It would be interesting if df1 (new move) was slightly more+ than say d1 to give those with really long ass start ups on their best strings a way to get them out up close.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
I'm all for improvements but I dont think mk should be tekken or try to be something they're not. Breakaways for example may work well in tekken but they suck balls in mk. I dont mind if fgs learn from each others success but I dont like it when one franchise copies another so much where it's like another fg with sf or mk or tekken skins know what I mean? Anyway that's my opinion on such.
 
the one thing they did manage to copy but did completely wrong was rage arts aka fatal blows. rage art are pretty balanced in how they work compared to fatal blows. there are varying types of fatal blows. mid screen, fullscreen, tracking, overhead. fatal blows have no super flash so when they come out you had better been ready 5 seconds ago to block. most of them are pseudo unpunishable having decent pushback for whatever reason combined with no block buffering in mk.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
The rage arts seemed like a copy of xrays and sf supers just implemented at 20%. All fg now days seemingly have a super move of some sort, though in melee it's often disabled for competitive play. I personally miss xrays.
 
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xKhaoTik

Kitana Kahn
The rage arts seemed like a copy of xrays and sf supers just implemented at 20%. All fg now days seemingly have a super move of some sort, though in melee it's often disabled for competitive play. I personally miss xrays.
They’re fine in Tekken tho. I don’t mind the instant armor since they’re completely punishable on block, have very little block stun/pushback and they don’t come back after a block/whiff.

Fatal Blows should work the same way imo
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
In mkx I remember they made an adjustment to laos ex spin where initially when it hit on the edge it had small pushback which me it impossible to punish for some characters. They fixed it by making the ex spin pull you closer to him on block in perfect range to punish it immediately. That's not the only example but I think if NRS built on the blocks that they already had it would be a great title. Mk11 is for casuals I really dont understand how anyone could say otherwise.
As far as takin from other games I think the mk series as a whole has some amazing systems remember the 110 different dojos in Deception?
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
So hear me out as this would be quite a big change. The 2 reasons I think this is a good idea is #1 imo it would lead to more interesting footsies (maybe only slight improvement here) but also #2 the main gripe almost all my friends have with NRS games is "d1 d3 20 times a match looks hella dumb bro... is there no other option for me here to steal turn? If I make a read I want it to be obvious I am a superior player not just some d1 spamming nrs player... also animation looks dumb as hell".

In tekken crouching lows are almost always negative on hit. Used mainly as pokes from a distance u dont need to worry about eating pressure from or as a round ender. I think if d3 was negative on hit , d1 was at most 0 and they added a new move similar to tekken df1 which was slightly slower than 1, led to decent + to mount whatever pressure you wanted but still got beat by standing 1.... mk11 would be perfect. You could contest crouching characters or d2 with every character into pressure... no lame ass d1 spam or poke throw... people would be standing more and shimmying. What do you guys thing?
This wouldn't work in MK11 you are forgetting several things why this works.

1. Tekken is a 3D game with 3D movement, it doesn't hurt to have negative on hit moves because they have a rule of thumb on how negative a move can be and how fast an attack can be, those are:
a) Fastest attacks in the game start at 10f
b) Game has 3d movement, witth the fastest attack coming at 10f unless you character its on -6 t0 -9 you can still move on directions that it's not forward or backwards.
2. Tekken has a crushing system in, there is high crushing, low and mid crushing, to even if your move is minus, if your opponent does an attack that can be crushed in time, it will work, like hop kicks beating lows, and most lows crushing high and even in some cases mids.


This woudn't be a big change in MK11 it would make the poke system worse than already is, given the NRS history of copying mechanics from other games without understanding how it works, besides MK9 had that and it wasn't pretty

Scorpion's pokes in MK9 were negative on hit and it was terrible, essentially made the character bottom 3.
MK games frame data starts at 5 to 6 frames universally, even if you make a move 0 on block or hit, d1s, d3s, d4s all anti airs in MK games, the second you lost the advantage of something you are pretty much on a 50-50 situation. Then you have characters with 9f mids, where the majority doesn't even has one until 13 frames.

Also also, MK11 doesn't have crush system outside of d1 and lows crushing highs, but it's not something they have fleshed out.


So implementing tekken ideais the way you described it's a hard no imo, it would make the game worse as it is.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
This wouldn't work in MK11 you are forgetting several things why this works.

1. Tekken is a 3D game with 3D movement, it doesn't hurt to have negative on hit moves because they have a rule of thumb on how negative a move can be and how fast an attack can be, those are:
a) Fastest attacks in the game start at 10f
b) Game has 3d movement, witth the fastest attack coming at 10f unless you character its on -6 t0 -9 you can still move on directions that it's not forward or backwards.
2. Tekken has a crushing system in, there is high crushing, low and mid crushing, to even if your move is minus, if your opponent does an attack that can be crushed in time, it will work, like hop kicks beating lows, and most lows crushing high and even in some cases mids.


This woudn't be a big change in MK11 it would make the poke system worse than already is, given the NRS history of copying mechanics from other games without understanding how it works, besides MK9 had that and it wasn't pretty

Scorpion's pokes in MK9 were negative on hit and it was terrible, essentially made the character bottom 3.
MK games frame data starts at 5 to 6 frames universally, even if you make a move 0 on block or hit, d1s, d3s, d4s all anti airs in MK games, the second you lost the advantage of something you are pretty much on a 50-50 situation. Then you have characters with 9f mids, where the majority doesn't even has one until 13 frames.

Also also, MK11 doesn't have crush system outside of d1 and lows crushing highs, but it's not something they have fleshed out.


So implementing tekken ideais the way you described it's a hard no imo, it would make the game worse as it is.
1I realize its a big difference... would make the d3/d1 jailing into highs not only impossible but also useless since people wouldnt really be ducking all the damn time fishing for d2. They could compensate for making df1 mid on counter hit link into a 1 string. To do that tho they would nneed to make people's strongest punish off 1 much weaker than other higher startup strings (which isnnt the case atm, which is also hella dumb imo) or add scaling. The swap stance button is dumb as hell they should just replace that with a sway that works like sidesteps do in tekken if ur less than -5.
2. This point u made is 100% true. They would also need to implement this. Why havent they? Tell me you enjoy getting hit out of your short hop overhead by a d3? I think I already know the answer. MK fundamentally has lots of problems imo and they could fix them by doing this and also make non mk players gravitate toward it since it doesn't look like a knee slap/ throw mix up fest.

You mention scorpion in mk9...well of course hes gonna be booboo biscuits if hes the only char whose pokes are like that but if they made it a universal thing like "i don't really wanna hold this mix up" interrupt move for everyone I think it wouldn't be so bad. I mean don't get me wrong I don't think mk11 sucks...if there is a mk12 I hope it is way closer to mk11 than mkx but I think they need to go back to the drawing board as far as these low pokes go. My idea might be a bad one but I feel mk11 is so close to being best thing ever I just cant put my finger on what it is they are missing. Maybe just adding some more depth in other departments would fix this tho.
 
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MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
They’re fine in Tekken tho. I don’t mind the instant armor since they’re completely punishable on block, have very little block stun/pushback and they don’t come back after a block/whiff.

Fatal Blows should work the same way imo
Sounds good except for the part about. ot coming back so wait if you use it and miss, whiff etc it doesnt come back as if you used your fb in mk 11? Haven't played the new tekken yet. I wish the fb had more armor tbh for certain characters but that's another story lol. Appreciate the info.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
Sounds good except for the part about. ot coming back so wait if you use it and miss, whiff etc it doesnt come back as if you used your fb in mk 11? Haven't played the new tekken yet. I wish the fb had more armor tbh for certain characters but that's another story lol. Appreciate the info.
It doesn’t come back. You can also use it every round not once a fight. They are highly punishable tho and at high level most people opt to use the other ability u get when in rage... it’s basically one of ur characters normal moves but much stronger and plus on block (no armor tho so you can’t just yolo it).
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
So hear me out as this would be quite a big change. The 2 reasons I think this is a good idea is #1 imo it would lead to more interesting footsies (maybe only slight improvement here) but also #2 the main gripe almost all my friends have with NRS games is "d1 d3 20 times a match looks hella dumb bro... is there no other option for me here to steal turn? If I make a read I want it to be obvious I am a superior player not just some d1 spamming nrs player... also animation looks dumb as hell".

In tekken crouching lows are almost always negative on hit. Used mainly as pokes from a distance u dont need to worry about eating pressure from or as a round ender. I think if d3 was negative on hit , d1 was at most 0 and they added a new move similar to tekken df1 which was slightly slower than 1, led to decent + to mount whatever pressure you wanted but still got beat by standing 1.... mk11 would be perfect. You could contest crouching characters or d2 with every character into pressure... no lame ass d1 spam or poke throw... people would be standing more and shimmying. What do you guys thing?
Give or take a few frames, the universal Tekken low jab is very similar to the average low jab in Mortal Kombat 11 in terms of block and hit advantage (i.e., -5 on block and +6 on hit). The reason Tekken's low jab has limited use is because of the game's 3D movement and crush system, as Eddy Wang already explained, and also the universal low parry mechanic, which allows every character to parry and punish low pokes by pressing d/f.

Comparing Mortal Kombat 11's mechanics to Tekken 7's mechanics is like comparison apples to oranges. NRS have to find out what works for their own fighting games.
 

NaCl man

Welcome to Akihabara
Swap out the stance switch to a low parry button? Not a combo starter but as a breaker.
Honestly I don't know enough about mk11 and haven't really dived into learning the game but from what I have played the poke system is annoying.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
It doesn’t come back. You can also use it every round not once a fight. They are highly punishable tho and at high level most people opt to use the other ability u get when in rage... it’s basically one of ur characters normal moves but much stronger and plus on block (no armor tho so you can’t just yolo it).
That's interesting that you have one each round I remember now when it first came out tekken 7 deep reviews mentioned that and having other options with the rage meter.
 

xKhaoTik

Kitana Kahn
That's interesting that you have one each round I remember now when it first came out tekken 7 deep reviews mentioned that and having other options with the rage meter.
Yea when the character is in Rage, they do more damage and they have access to 2 new attacks. “Rage Drive” and “Rage Art”. Rage art are the supers on the game and they’re completely balanced for the most part. Rage Drives are just beefed up regular attacks that either starts combos, continues a combo, sets up insane oki, sets up mixups on block, etc. You see a lot more rage drives than rage arts imo.

Not saying MK11 has to do anything like that but if Fatal Blows were to be changed, they should look at how Tekken handles supers.
 

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
I think taking away normal meter management kinda makes the FB problem worse even though it does not cost meter it fucking should lol.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
Yea when the character is in Rage, they do more damage and they have access to 2 new attacks. “Rage Drive” and “Rage Art”. Rage art are the supers on the game and they’re completely balanced for the most part. Rage Drives are just beefed up regular attacks that either starts combos, continues a combo, sets up insane oki, sets up mixups on block, etc. You see a lot more rage drives than rage arts imo.

Not saying MK11 has to do anything like that but if Fatal Blows were to be changed, they should look at how Tekken handles supers.
Yeah I hear ya injustice miss xrays the more I play mk 11
 
The rage arts seemed like a copy of xrays and sf supers just implemented at 20%. All fg now days seemingly have a super move of some sort, though in melee it's often disabled for competitive play. I personally miss xrays.
yeah but as far as i can think of sf4 was the one fighting game to implement supers tied to health in a way. rage arts aren't exactly meter based like traditional supers and xrays.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
yeah but as far as i can think of sf4 was the one fighting game to implement supers tied to health in a way. rage arts aren't exactly meter based like traditional supers and xrays.
Yeah I mean super moves have been In fg since techically the 90s but all a little different not all exactly alike which is a good thing though I definitely prefer xrays to FBs though as far as MKs supers.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
Give or take a few frames, the universal Tekken low jab is very similar to the average low jab in Mortal Kombat 11 in terms of block and hit advantage (i.e., -5 on block and +6 on hit). The reason Tekken's low jab has limited use is because of the game's 3D movement and crush system, as Eddy Wang already explained, and also the universal low parry mechanic, which allows every character to parry and punish low pokes by pressing d/f.

Comparing Mortal Kombat 11's mechanics to Tekken 7's mechanics is like comparison apples to oranges. NRS have to find out what works for their own fighting games.
Ya you and eddy are probablly right, I just enjoy the tekken system so much more.
 

Jbog

Noob
Short hop should be up 3 at the same time making it more consistent in an actually game it jusps straight up way to often