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A question about Poison Ivy's Zoning

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Just wanted to ask something regarding Ivy's Zoning. As we all know she can both Zone and Rush, but a lot of people call her a Zoner. But the thing is, as I've noticed more and more, the only way she can really Zone is by using the Drill with her Trait, and her trait has limited use, as you can't just use it freely, unlike her Rushdown and Pressure tools, not to mention that her Trait can be used for Pressure as well.

So my question is: How and why Ivy is considered a Zoner more of a Rushdowner, and how can you make her Zoning effective without the need of Gear-only moves? Thanks to everyone in advance.
 

ShadyHeart

Relationship with Sonya ended
She's not a true zoner, more like a hybrid leaning towards zoning. The fact that she can slap you with a F3 any time you try to crouch block a drill is part of what makes her zoning more scary. If you try to stand block the drills you're going to be walking away from her every time. Meter burn drill will send you back to full screen and you never know when she will use it so it can easily catch you off guard. If you try playing careful and always block longer than you need to in case of meter burn drill, you're not going to get in. Nightshade forces you to eat damage no matter what. Bark Skin allows her to make favorable trades. If you tend to jump her drills she's going to adapt and do an air to air combo.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
She's not a true zoner, more like a hybrid leaning towards zoning. The fact that she can slap you with a F3 any time you try to crouch block a drill is part of what makes her zoning more scary. If you try to stand block the drills you're going to be walking away from her every time. Meter burn drill will send you back to full screen and you never know when she will use it so it can easily catch you off guard. If you try playing careful and always block longer than you need to in case of meter burn drill, you're not going to get in. Nightshade forces you to eat damage no matter what. Bark Skin allows her to make favorable trades. If you tend to jump her drills she's going to adapt and do an air to air combo.
But here is the thing, she can't even be a hybrid that leaning towards Zoning because the Drill is still just one move, as good as it might be, and her trait has limited use, because once the duration of the trait is over, all she has is just ONE projectile. It's not like Darkseid who has more then one projectile that he can use at any given moment in addition to his trait that give him even more keepaway tools. All of Ivy's free-to-use moves lean to close-to-mid-range game: Her AA's, the Datura, her strings etc; even if the Drill is a very good move, you can't be called a Zoner, or even a Jill of all trades master of none character that leans towards Zoning, if you got only 2 Zoning moves and one of them can only be used for a limited amount of time. And on top of that, the Drill is a Mid, not a Low, so you don't need to block Low when she gets the Drill out.

So this whole "Ivy has great Zoning" thing sounds just so misleading.
 
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Yeah I'd argue her zoning is really the spamming all the kids talk about. Not in a bad way though, because it is often safer when trait is active to spam drill. I shied away from playing her for a while because I figured her spamming would be boring but I was really wrong. I love playing the footsie and mixup game with her. Trait with the opponent in the corner is a nightmare. I love her moveset and can definitely get behind the thought that she is not a zoner just because she has a move that hits at range. She's more about pressure and surprises with her ground thorns, vine drill, normal range, crazy f3, and then trait.

At least the way i play her.
 

ImperatrixSindel

Too bad YOU... will DIE!
Premium Supporter
I play her as more of a counter-zoner/rushdown character when I'm in competitive mode. She zones a lot better with her gear projectile.
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
drill is a move that controls the ground and is a great way to keep people out. the mind game is to dash after a drill or just sit there in fear of a mb drill which will catch her dash. drill also does a great job of slowing their approach as most people are really hesitant to dash out of fear of getting caught by a drill and getting knocked full screen and while their afraid of the drill it allows you to set up trait for free. once trait is out she can pretty much lock you down for free with drill and does a ton of chip and builds a ton of meter which allows her to do more mb drills to keep you out. and her pressure and rushdown is all gimmicks. she's more of a zoning and footsie based character
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
drill is a move that controls the ground and is a great way to keep people out. the mind game is to dash after a drill or just sit there in fear of a mb drill which will catch her dash. drill also does a great job of slowing their approach as most people are really hesitant to dash out of fear of getting caught by a drill and getting knocked full screen and while their afraid of the drill it allows you to set up trait for free. once trait is out she can pretty much lock you down for free with drill and does a ton of chip and builds a ton of meter which allows her to do more mb drills to keep you out. and her pressure and rushdown is all gimmicks. she's more of a zoning and footsie based character
But the opponent can easily jump above it. Since the Drill is comes from the ground and has short range, people can just jump above it or just off the ground, they don't need to dash to go around it. And like I said, without the trait, the Drill by itself can't Zone on it's on. Other characters can trait very well just by using their regular specials alone. She can Zone, but it is limited by timing.

She is much more of a Rushdown/mid-range character, as these tools are available to her at all times, and her Trait can also help her Rushdown game very well.
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
But the opponent can easily jump above it. Since the Drill is comes from the ground and has short range, people can just jump above it or just off the ground, they don't need to dash to go around it. And like I said, without the trait, the Drill by itself can't Zone on it's on. Other characters can trait very well just by using their regular specials alone. She can Zone, but it is limited by timing.

She is much more of a Rushdown/mid-range character, as these tools are available to her at all times, and her Trait can also help her Rushdown game very well.
no one is reacting to drill with a jump. you can't just hold up forward unless the ivy player is just mindlessly spamming. if I'm fighting someone and I know they're gonna try to jump to get by me then I'm just gonna wait and drill them on their way down. and if anyone can find away to jump out the trait drill loop I will personally make a thread where I post nothing but nudes until I get banned. and her trait pressure is a bill since one push block and trait is back on cool down. I would much rather activate trait and back off and do chip and build meter with trait. you don't need multiple different types of projectiles to zone when you have one that controls space as well as drill does and force your opponent to take risks in order to get in
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
no one is reacting to drill with a jump. you can't just hold up forward unless the ivy player is just mindlessly spamming. if I'm fighting someone and I know they're gonna try to jump to get by me then I'm just gonna wait and drill them on their way down. and if anyone can find away to jump out the trait drill loop I will personally make a thread where I post nothing but nudes until I get banned. and her trait pressure is a bill since one push block and trait is back on cool down. I would much rather activate trait and back off and do chip and build meter with trait. you don't need multiple different types of projectiles to zone when you have one that controls space as well as drill does and force your opponent to take risks in order to get in
No, you didn't understand me correctly. Of course that as long as Ivy has both the Trait and the Drill, it is extremely hard to get out of her Zoning, but while she has no access to her Trait, it is very easy to jump off the ground and avoid the Drill. That's what I meant. Shinnok's Hell Sparks in MKX also come from the ground, but their range is much bigger, that's not the case with Ivy's Drill.

On top of that, once the trait is on cool down (which is not that fast, mind you), Ivy must go back to her Rushdown game even if the Ivy player doesn't want to. She needs both the Trait and the Drill to Zone effectively, and if one of those tools (the Trait) is a time based tool and Ivy can't have access to it at every given moment and she has to change her game not because of the opponent's decisions but rather Ivy's own tool set, that's not that much of an effective Zoning. Other characters can Zone much better not just because they have more then one Zoning tool, but also because they have access to all of those tools at every given moment. When I'm playing Reptile in MK9 and MKX and I wanna go for Zoning, I don't need to wait for any of my Zoning tools to have it's cool down getting over because they don't have any of such. What would happen if you go to an MU in which you have to Zone and the Trait runs out? You stuck in a playstyle that you don't want to use even if it's not gonna help you. That's the thing about Ivy's Zoning.

Also for the record, yes projectiles are the only tools that can Zone, back to Shinnok in the Necromancer Variation, only the Hell Sparks are long range projectiles, he has that short range range projectile as well, plus the Necro specific moves that aren't projectiles yet can still Zone.

And yes the opponent can just use push block to get the Trait close pressure end and let it go for cool down, I just mentioned the fact that you can use the trait for Pressure in addition to Zoning just to show that if her time based Zoning tool can also be used for Pressure, in addition to her 100% accessible strings and mid-range tools, she is much more of a Pressure character, that just happen to Zone when she can.
 
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Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
No, you didn't understand me correctly. Of course that as long as Ivy has both the Trait and the Drill, it is extremely hard to get out of her Zoning, but while she has no access to her Trait, it is very easy to jump off the ground and avoid the Drill. That's what I meant. Shinnok's Hell Sparks in MKX also come from the ground, but their range is much bigger, that's not the case with Ivy's Drill.

On top of that, once the trait is on cool down (which is not that fast, mind you), Ivy must go back to her Rushdown game even if the Ivy player doesn't want to. She needs both the Trait and the Drill to Zone effectively, and if one of those tools (the Trait) is a time based tool and Ivy can't have access to it at every given moment and she has to change her game not because of the opponent's decisions but rather Ivy's own tool set, that's not that much of an effective Zoning. Other characters can Zone much better not just because they have more then one Zoning tool, but also because they have access to all of those tools at every given moment. When I'm playing Reptile in MK9 and MKX and I wanna go for Zoning, I don't need to wait for any of my Zoning tools to have it's cool down getting over because they don't have any of such. What would happen if you go to an MU in which you have to Zone and the Trait runs out? You stuck in a playstyle that you don't want to use even if it's not gonna help you. That's the thing about Ivy's Zoning.

Also for the record, yes projectiles are the only tools that can Zone, back to Shinnok in the Necromancer Variation, only the Hell Sparks are long range projectiles, he has that short range range projectile as well, plus the Necro specific moves that aren't projectiles yet can still Zone.

And yes the opponent can just use push block to get the Trait close pressure end and let it go for cool down, I just mentioned the fact that you can use the trait for Pressure in addition to Zoning just to show that if her time based Zoning tool can also be used for Pressure, in addition to her 100% accessible strings and mid-range tools, she is much more of a Pressure character, that just happen to Zone when she can.
Think about what you're saying. Her zoning is bad because you can jump. As an ivy main I want you to start jumping because then I can blow you up with a drill on your way down. And she's not forced to play rushdown when trait is done. Unless you're a character with great air mobility like superman then you have to deal with drills. And you're making way to much of a deal over trait cool down. It's not crazy long like a canary scream. She uses drills you keep you out and build up her trait.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Think about what you're saying. Her zoning is bad because you can jump. As an ivy main I want you to start jumping because then I can blow you up with a drill on your way down. And she's not forced to play rushdown when trait is done. Unless you're a character with great air mobility like superman then you have to deal with drills. And you're making way to much of a deal over trait cool down. It's not crazy long like a canary scream. She uses drills you keep you out and build up her trait.
Well maybe you're right. Even with that though, Ivy is still not that easy to use when it comes to execution. I don't need my character to be super easy to use (of course if it is then that's fine by me) but I don't find Ivy that much fun to use when she has that execution barrier, and it's not like I get connection to her that is strong enough like I get with Reptile or other characters from other games. I moved to Sub-Zero and one of the reasons for that was he is not super easy to use but still easier in comparison to Ivy, in addition to still kinda balanced between offense and defense (not like Reptile but close enough). So even if you're right regarding Ivy's Zoning I don't think she is the right character for me. Not that she is bad by any means. Of course if she happens to be good against Sub-Zero's bad MU's, I might playing her again as a counter-pick character.

I will leave it at that :)
 

gets

Noob
The weakness in her zoning is the lack of AA without trait. but like baconlord said you can drill and catch them on the way down. All other options for controlling the air are for mid range. they are

armored b3- good for people who are not close. Will fail against people on top of you or crossing up. At tip range it anti airs pretty well.

delayed f3- good if you predict a jump. will hit people on the way down. Probably safer to just drill them if you predict a jump though.

j1- probably your best mid range AA in my opinion. D2 is so unreliable I generally just try to A2A on reaction because this is faster than d2 at 7 frames

j2- also 7 frames but has a worse horizontal hitbox than j1. Still very good for AA and leads to some nice confirms