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A community tier list, with contributions from some TYM members

The Flash has a huge dominance in the game. Insane comeback factor and the Fact that the previous top tiers were nerfed: Aquaman,Deadshot, Batman, Black Adam and Catwoman. They got shafted with the nerf hammer unlike The Flash. Making him candidate to top 1 in my books.
 
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Call someone a fool for expressing his opinion!. That should teach him!. LMAO.
Actually I called you a fool because you failed to address the reason why the characters were placed there in the first place. Find a match up to disagree with if you want to feel useful.

Matchups are determined with proofs.
Yes, and the match ups were discussed at length within a Discord server that you weren't a part of. It looks like you used that expert reasoning of yours to determine that the proof does not exist because you didn't see it.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
I mean I can’t lie. It is weird seeing wowo that high with very little tournament results, but it’s not the first time it’s happened.

Scar did it with skarlet in MK9
I did it with KF in i1
Honeybee did it with D’Vorah in MKX
Dragon did it with Wowo in I2

It just takes the right player to show why the character is top tier. Just because they don’t have a huge representation doesn’t mean they aren’t top.
 

ChatterBox

Searching for an alt.
The Flash has a huge dominance in the game. Insane comeback factor and the Fact that the previous top tiers were nerfed: Aquaman, Batman, Black Adam and Catwoman. They got shafted with the nerf hammer unlike The Flash. Making him candidate to top 1 in my books.
Right, but a tier list isn't based on who you think is hardest to fight against. It's based on matchups so when a player picks a character they give themselves and advantage or disadvantage in matchups. Flash has to fight some other character. Remember evo? Remember how Aquaman seemed to have an advantage against flash but using his trait to get out of combos and use his longer reaching normals to keep Flash away?

As for tournament results, those are because actual people are using these characters. A character is just a set of tools used by a player against another player and their chosen tools. Otherwise why would we even play the game? Everyone pick a character and we go by the tier list and whoever picked the best one wins the tournament. Popularity, execution requirements, are also factors in why people pick characters. Then the person needs the right reads and the right gameplan to actually win a match. You're simplifying way too much.
 

Skedar70

Noob
Actually I called you a fool because you failed to address the reason why the characters were placed there in the first place. Find a match up to disagree with if you want to feel useful.



Yes, and the match ups were discussed at length within a Discord server that you weren't a part of. It looks like you used that expert reasoning of yours to determine that the proof does not exist because you didn't see it.
Who was in this discord channel that came up with all these crazy MU numbers. I disagree with Grodd completely for example. All Grodd mains agree that he loses clearly to Wonder Woman and Aquaman however many of these losing MU are actually 5-5 or even winning MU for Grodd ( I think Grodd beats Atrocitus, Supergirl, Green arrow). And Wonder woman only losing to Starfire and Poison Ivy? I think she loses some other mu also (Green arrow)
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
Yes, and the match ups were discussed at length within a Discord server that you weren't a part of. It looks like you used that expert reasoning of yours to determine that the proof does not exist because you didn't see it.
This is why its also not really helpful if people provide you with differing matchup numbers, rather than being general like @Skedar70 was being. Us discussing matchup numbers here won't really make a difference, because "these matchups have been discussed at length." You guys put a lot of effort into this but I think there are some pretty glaring holes. Who knows how tiers would change if every matchup number was "perfect" - that not really important - at the same time I think its pretty silly to just call people fools who disagree with the chart.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Tournament performance of a character is more of a "general guideline" than anything, but shouldn't be relied upon. Top tier characters don't win tournaments - strong players do.

You're more likely to see top tier characters get top 8's and such, but seeing a character get top 8 doesn't mean they are top tier - it just means the player is good. Sonic is the prime example of this and why such things can't be taken as law.

Like many people consider Atom top 5 and yet the only player I've actually seen make ground with him is Grr.
 
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Espio

Kokomo
Lead Moderator
It's not enough to say you don't agree with a match up or tier placement, be SPECIFIC and be CONSTRUCTIVE.

Trying to discredit other people or ad hom them isn't going to get anything done and that goes for both sides.

My question for the people who disagree is: are you trying to improve the chart? If you are then the correct approach and strategy is not to say vague things like, "Fate beats Enchantress 6-4". Why does he? The problem with match up discussion is people want to be taken seriously, but don't wanna put in the intellectual effort, they just expect it to be done.

Fate beats Enchantress 6-4.
A lot of Adam matchups are wrong imo.
This tier list is really bad. First the game doesn't have this many tiers. At the most there is just 3 o 4 tiers. I think most of the characters are in the middle except for Raphael, Donnatello, Deadshot and maybe Raiden who would be at the bottom. The community is wrong about Grodd he is not a low tier character (stop it) he is in the middle with most of the cast. I don't know who the top are and I no longer feel any character is too OP.


The chart has been ever changing when people present credible arguments, if you're not going to present arguments what is the point in a lot of these posts? Even if they don't automatically change, at least expand the conversation in some intellectual way.

Saying the chart as a whole is "really bad" because you don't like where your main is is just kind of petulance talking.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Well outside of the Bane ones that have been explained to me the only one that I know I don't agree with personally is Grodd v Aquaman, 7-3 for me personally. Aqua's a hard character to open up to begin with due to his super good footsie and neutral play, fantastic D2 to deny the air, decent projectiles to prevent leap, and not to mention trait, which kinda hurts if you're a character who restands at every second hit in his combo.

I'm just not seeing how Grodd is any more different than he was when the game was released to consider him mid-tier now. Remind me if I'm wrong but he's had his gap removed out of 22 but his SC out of it is now -3 IIRC, his jump got made faster by 2 frames (yay?) and his only plus SC are off of 112 and... S3? I imagine the SC change from the last patch changed some of his frame data but as of now, from tournament play and discussion on TYM, I haven't seen anyone say otherwise.

There were some other things but it's 4:30 here and I just woke up so yea
 
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Skedar70

Noob
Well outside of the Bane ones that have been explained to me the only one that I know I don't agree with personally is Grodd v Aquaman, 7-3 for me personally. Aqua's a hard character to open up to begin with due to his super good footsie and neutral play, fantastic D2 to deny the air, decent projectiles to prevent leap, and not to mention trait, which kinda hurts if you're a character who restands at every second hit in his combo.

I'm just not seeing how Grodd is any more different than he was when the game was released to consider him mid-tier now. Remind me if I'm wrong but he's had his gap removed out of 22 but his SC out of it is now -3 IIRC, his jump got made faster by 2 frames (yay?) and his only plus SC are off of 112 and... S3? I imagine the SC change from the last patch changed some of his frame data but as of now, from tournament play and discussion on TYM, I haven't seen anyone say otherwise.

There were some other things but it's 4:30 here and I just woke up so yea
Have you ever played a good Grodd?
 

Kotal_Wannabe

AKA AndyPandy
Green arrow beats wonder woman 6-4 and Aquaman wins 6-4 against wonder woman too.. if not is 5-5 at least.
I think you'll find if you take the time to credibly state your case for a matchup number instead of simply saying "this is it and that's all i'm gna say" it will be more well received. Insomniac has been nothing but accommodating to people's varying beliefs on the matchups during this whole process. None of the Matchup numbers have been taken lightly, it has been a meticulous process, and come down to sets on multiple occasions to resolve disputes. So I can understand his discontent when someone blindly calls the list bad, as if they could do a better job. If you want to improve the list then feel free to state your reasoning and it will be considered by every relevant representative in the council.
 
I think its pretty silly to just call people fools who disagree with the chart.
I'm not calling folks out for simply disagreeing with the chart. I'm calling them out for disagreeing with the chart despite not having a valid argument to back it up.

Us discussing matchup numbers here won't really make a difference, because "these matchups have been discussed at length."
This thread was made for the express purpose of discussing the match ups within the chart. Character placement is affected exclusively though the match up numbers. The characters will fall however the match ups dictate, so discussing placement at all really is foolish.

Trying to discredit other people or ad hom them isn't going to get anything done and that goes for both sides.
Yes, I was probably being a bit too snarky. My apologies.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
It's not enough to say you don't agree with a match up or tier placement, be SPECIFIC and be CONSTRUCTIVE.

Trying to discredit other people or ad hom them isn't going to get anything done and that goes for both sides.

My question for the people who disagree is: are you trying to improve the chart? If you are then the correct approach and strategy is not to say vague things like, "Fate beats Enchantress 6-4". Why does he? The problem with match up discussion is people want to be taken seriously, but don't wanna put in the intellectual effort, they just expect it to be done.









The chart has been ever changing when people present credible arguments, if you're not going to present arguments what is the point in a lot of these posts? Even if they don't automatically change, at least expand the conversation in some intellectual way.

Saying the chart as a whole is "really bad" because you don't like where your main is is just kind of petulance talking.
Last time I put intellectual effort into a matchup discussion Tweedy tried to get me banned for spreading false information despite providing video evidence proving my point. If your character has been public enemy since day 1, intellectual points very often land on deaf ears, and in this case there's the easy OS of "a whole discord group thought differently than you, so therefore you are wrong." What the hell though, I'll give it shot.
 

Kotal_Wannabe

AKA AndyPandy
Last time I put intellectual effort into a matchup discussion Tweedy tried to get me banned for spreading false information despite providing video evidence proving my point. If your character has been public enemy since day 1, intellectual points very often land on deaf ears, and in this case there's the easy OS of "a whole discord group thought differently than you, so therefore you are wrong." What the hell though, I'll give it shot.
You'll probably not get banned for raising a well articulated point... I hope, but better to die on your feet than live a coward.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
This has to be one of the worst MU charts I've seen in awhile
You and the others who have a problem are mad annoying because you’re not saying anything else to back your claim.

“Oh this shit sucks bro” ok thanks for sharing your opinion but it was definitely a waste of time because it’s a useless comment. At least give a reason why.

Also, y’all are more than welcome to make your own chart and present it. Can’t wait to see how Grodd beats everyone 6-4 since apparently he’s so good
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Last time I put intellectual effort into a matchup discussion Tweedy tried to get me banned for spreading false information despite providing video evidence proving my point. If your character has been public enemy since day 1, intellectual points very often land on deaf ears, and in this case there's the easy OS of "a whole discord group thought differently than you, so therefore you are wrong." What the hell though, I'll give it shot.
An entire discord dedicated to figuring out the match ups, discussing them, playing them out, and rediscussing them for months has a bit more credibility than one person going "nah"

"My character has been public enemy since day 1, intellectual points very often land on deaf ears"

^ now thats what I call an OS
 
I have a video footage proving that Captain Cold 10-0's The Flash:DOGE
Best Flash player in the world.... Check:p
Best Captain Cold player in the world... Check:p
Recent video footage... Check:DOGE
So.... logically speaking... this match-up chart is wrong. And Captain Cold is top 5 at least.:rolleyes:
(I am jocking BTW).
 

Undergroundepict

I am like the blue rose
This is why its also not really helpful if people provide you with differing matchup numbers, rather than being general like @Skedar70 was being. Us discussing matchup numbers here won't really make a difference, because "these matchups have been discussed at length." You guys put a lot of effort into this but I think there are some pretty glaring holes. Who knows how tiers would change if every matchup number was "perfect" - that not really important - at the same time I think its pretty silly to just call people fools who disagree with the chart.
This isn't true at all. At an earlier point in the process I had a general feeling that Black Adam's MU chart did have a lot of holes in it and questioned you guys about it on the Black Adam Discord. Matchup changes that you specifically suggested were brought up there, by me, and maybe one or two of them were further examined and altered based on the suggestions that you specifically made.

A central part of our directive was to represent our respective character's community as a whole, not just to make an arbitrary list of which MU's the people in the Character Council itself struggled and did well against. Objectivity was the goal, and you don't accomplish that by being insular and ignoring outside suggestions.

Hence, we're not only open to, but we welcome well-thought out critiques of particular matchups in our tier list. By the same token, people criticizing or dismissing the entire list based on not liking a character's placement, and absent any mention of particular MU's, is an eye roll that we already anticipated we would be doing a lot of.

Espio is also on point when he states that just claiming MU numbers as different probably isn't overly constructive as well, if somebody isn't prepared to explain their reasoning when questioned.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
One part of the tier list that I just feel is off is Captain Cold's MU chart. I don't have any MU numbers to throw out but it's my understanding that CC's chart was unchanged since the last patch. Just off the cuff, I find that really hard to believe. I think he got a huge buff with his B23 mid and I think this character is a lot stronger then he was before. I just don't see him losing that many matchups. His pressure is dramatically better. I'm not even saying he's in a much different spot, but he just seems stronger to me then the chart would suggest.

And maybe it's just me but I feel like there's a lot of 6-4s that I would just call 5-5's with slight advantage, though I suppose that's a matter of personal preference on how you weigh matchup numbers.
 
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Undergroundepict

I am like the blue rose
One part of the tier list that I just feel is off is Captain Cold's MU chart. I don't have any MU numbers to throw out but it's my understanding that CC's chart was unchanged since the last patch. Just off the cuff, I find that really hard to believe. I think he got a huge buff with his B23 mid and I think this character is a lot stronger then he was before. I just don't see him losing that many matchups. His pressure is just dramatically better. I'm not even saying he's in a much different spot, but he just seems stronger to me then the chart would suggest.

And maybe it's just me but I feel like there's a lot of 6-4s that I would just call 5-5's with slight advantage, though I suppose that's a matter of personal preference on how you weigh matchup numbers.
It takes us some time to adjust character placement after a patch, as we are meticulous as fuck about suggesting MU numbers and changes. MU's like Captain Cold vs Cheetah or Green Arrow aren't MU's a representative is likely to be able to test and dissect overnight.

Characters like Cold and Firestorm who receive significant changes will see their overall placement adapt to greater reflect the new reality over time. We can't be everywhere.