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A.B.I.torial 13: Mortal Kombat X's Animation SUCKS

Mattman

Warlock Nerd
Wow i was waiting for him to say something meaningful or to convince me that he’s not Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons but now I’m more convinced than ever
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
NRS are stuck in the past with everything except for their technology.
Their communications are horribad.
Their animation is still stuck at 90's b-list movie level.
Their design policies are push-and-shove.
Their games don't last five years on a market where there are games that get patched WEEKLY.
This was just sour-grapes bias.

The truth is: NRS communicates better than nearly any AAA fighting game dev (who else is having the actual game devs, rather than random 3rd party players, answering questions about the game on stream?)

Also, Injustice 2 is one of the most balanced games on the market. It's had a great and highly exciting competitive history so far. The design has paid off.

The games don't last five years because they produce a new fighting game every two years. If there was a brand new Street Fighter every two years, no one would play the old one, either.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
This was just sour-grapes bias.

The truth is: NRS communicates better than nearly any AAA fighting game dev (who else is having the actual game devs, rather than random 3rd party players, answering questions about the game on stream?)

Also, Injustice 2 is one of the most balanced games on the market. It's had a great and highly exciting competitive history so far. The design has paid off.

The games don't last five years because they produce a new fighting game every two years. If there was a brand new Street Fighter every two years, no one would play the old one, either.
I don't know who they communicate better than, in comparison, but it doesn't matter: Their communication is improving but it's still on the level of TwitterSpoilers and that's rubbish in 2018.

I'm inclined to agree about Injustice 2 being more balanced than any of their games so far. Sadly, it still has major issues like some characters having a severe upper hand and others suffering to get by, but it's definitely an improvement to speak of.

And yes, making a new game every 2 years is part of the problem, among other things such as the money grabbing attitude and the poor support of their games. They promised to keep supporting MKX yet look at it die, like MK9 did and like Inj1 did. Sadly, as Injustice 2's PC sales show, they are losing fan support.

I've been of the opinion since mkx came out, that they should instead release new content and not new games. Look past the genre and at more successful game titles in the gaming industry, some of them decades old, yet seasonally new content and weekly patching keeps them at the top of the popularity list.

MKX should have been an expansion pack for MK9 with brand new characters, story arc, an engine- and mechanics-update and they could have re-sold an old game to more interested people while also cashing in on the expansion pack from people who already own the game.

I'm sure WB wants fast money and that's why they are going this way. It's still unfortunate.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I don't know who they communicate better than, in comparison, but it doesn't matter: Their communication is improving but it's still on the level of TwitterSpoilers and that's rubbish in 2018.
You didn't answer my question about which other AAA fighting game devs are having their actual developers explain things and answer questions on monthly streams, though :)
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
You didn't answer my question about which other AAA fighting game devs are having their actual developers explain things and answer questions on monthly streams, though :)
Oh, sorry! :)
I don't know about AAA Fighting Games persay.
I do know that most major game's devs do, though.
That's a step in the right direction to be sure. That's part of the improvement I'm admitting to.

EDIT: While I'm sure nobody at NRS cares nor do they read this, I'll just leave this here to be constructive and not just a critic.
What I think they're missing:

- In-game per-game-instance (if you want to vote twice buy two games, to prevent rigging) online poll tied in with user statistics and feedback option once per patch.
- Customer service or any other Q/A method to properly address technical issues.
- Better PR overall, for being bought out by WB their PR is pretty last century.
- Opt-in PTS with test periods up to one month for content that is about to be released so that the content can be properly tested before they launch it.
Been working all night and it's 5:30 AM here so my brain is not really at top speed but there was other junk too that an industry professional in communications could definitely write a whole article on if one wanted to.
 
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CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Oh, sorry! :)
I don't know about AAA Fighting Games persay.
I do know that most major game's devs do, though.
That's a step in the right direction to be sure. That's part of the improvement I'm admitting to.

EDIT: While I'm sure nobody at NRS cares nor do they read this, I'll just leave this here to be constructive and not just a critic.
What I think they're missing:

- In-game per-game-instance (if you want to vote twice buy two games, to prevent rigging) online poll tied in with user statistics and feedback option once per patch.
- Customer service or any other Q/A method to properly address technical issues.
- Better PR overall, for being bought out by WB their PR is pretty last century.
- Opt-in PTS with test periods up to one month for content that is about to be released so that the content can be properly tested before they launch it.
Been working all night and it's 5:30 AM here so my brain is not really at top speed but there was other junk too that an industry professional in communications could definitely write a whole article on if one wanted to.
Yeah for sure, there are some games like Overwatch where the support and communication from the devs are really good.

There are also a ton of AAA-level games where the devs just kind of do what they want, you never hear from anyone on the development team, and they push patches out and don't really say much.

I feel like anyone who's reaching out directly from the development team to the fans right now is the exception, and not the rule. When a game designer or someone is on stream explaining stuff, that's a bonus, rather than a standard.

Most of the major games don't have public test realms for patches (some do). It's also kind of an extra.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Yeah for sure, there are some games like Overwatch where the support and communication from the devs are really good.

There are also a ton of AAA-level games where the devs just kind of do what they want, you never hear from anyone on the development team, and they push patches out and don't really say much.

I feel like anyone who's reaching out directly from the development team to the fans right now is the exception, and not the rule. When a game designer or someone is on stream explaining stuff, that's a bonus, rather than a standard.

Most of the major games don't have public test realms for patches (some do). It's also kind of an extra.
In my opinion apologetic narrative is not to anyone's benefit.
Saying that "not all do" and "most don't" to things that are beyond an obvious positive and could be considered the next level of essential (until better methods are found) is excusing the lack of improvement rather than acknowledging its significance. Not to say that existing improvement is not acknowledged, mind. As above.
Industry standards are to be defined by the top of the line, not the baseline, if we want to be competitive.

Doing "well enough" and cashing in on an acceptable level is fine.
Doing "great" or even "leading by example" puts an already akklaimed (lulz) developer in the highest regard where even the worst of critics (ie, myself :p) are silenced by the sheer amounts of awesome.
 
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Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Not gonna watch that IJ2 vid, I'm sorry but that one MKX vid he did only proved he is completley delusional and hypocritical, and with a bias approach. I'm sorry but that is the truth. No one should watch his vids.

I don't know who they communicate better than, in comparison, but it doesn't matter: Their communication is improving but it's still on the level of TwitterSpoilers and that's rubbish in 2018.

I'm inclined to agree about Injustice 2 being more balanced than any of their games so far. Sadly, it still has major issues like some characters having a severe upper hand and others suffering to get by, but it's definitely an improvement to speak of.

And yes, making a new game every 2 years is part of the problem, among other things such as the money grabbing attitude and the poor support of their games. They promised to keep supporting MKX yet look at it die, like MK9 did and like Inj1 did. Sadly, as Injustice 2's PC sales show, they are losing fan support.

I've been of the opinion since mkx came out, that they should instead release new content and not new games. Look past the genre and at more successful game titles in the gaming industry, some of them decades old, yet seasonally new content and weekly patching keeps them at the top of the popularity list.

MKX should have been an expansion pack for MK9 with brand new characters, story arc, an engine- and mechanics-update and they could have re-sold an old game to more interested people while also cashing in on the expansion pack from people who already own the game.

I'm sure WB wants fast money and that's why they are going this way. It's still unfortunate.
I'm sorry but this is just plain wrong just like both those two vids he made. NRS communicate better then pretty much every FG dev out there right now, and this topic of animations for their games has nothing with their communication department, or the balance department, especially that the balance and animations are indeed getting better and better by each NRS game. There is no denying in that.

Also regarding the whole 2-year cycle thing, I said this before and I will say it again (and BTW, this also has nothing to do with this topic of animations), that the cycle's affect of people stop playing the previous game after two years once the new game comes out has ended a long time ago. Yes more people will play the newer game the previous one, but now we see that MKX still has a big amount of players who play it from all aspects: Single Player, Online and Tournaments. Just last mouth at KIT we had an MKX tourney on stream that wasn't a side tourney, and we are gonna get two more in both CB and Viennality this year, in addition to the Kombat Kup Runback Online tournies. I also see people online keep playing it and I keep getting invites to online tournies from ESL, even in the single player it actually got better in some ways, as not only people keep playing the Living Towers, but also, and probably FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, the Faction War tower has reached ti's max height of 10 matches due to collaboration from all of the players online, FOR 2 WEEKS IN A ROW! I even uploaded videos about it on my YouTube channel. There is absolutely no way MKX can even be hinted as a dead game if that is the case for it from all of those aspects. A dead game is not dead just because of dev support alone, it is also the tourney support and other stuff. All of that happens because a lot of people still prefer MK over IJ and that is why they keep playing MKX over IJ2, and guess what? Once MK11 comes out, most likely people will still keep playing IJ2 in addition to a huge amount of people playing MK11. This 2 cycle has ended a long time ago, and this 4 cycle between games of the same franchises is more then enough to keep both franchises fresh.

And yes, WB aren't perfect as a publisher, and they also think about getting money and do some bad stuff because of that, but they are still better then every other FG publisher out there and even better most other publishers and in general, as Capcom from example are sending their devs to make games with minimal polish and effort and expect the competitive players and casuals to accept that just because of their legacy and tourney standing and guess what? MVC:I isn't gonna be at EVO. On other hand, WB understand that in order to make a Fighting Game successful you need to let the devs to polish their games from all aspect, both competitive field, hardcore gaming field and casual field, and that is why NRS games are becoming more and more successful from all aspect. And yes, having this cycle 2 year between games 4 years between games of the came franchises is a huge part of that success. Like I said, it is more then enough to keep their games satisfying and fresh for everyone. And don't get me started on comparing WB to EA or Konami, that will be a squash match for sure.

NRS do care, even WB care, and all of those departments are taken care of, including their animation department. NRS only improve their animation, graphics and overall presntation with with each game, and they bring better presentation then pretty much any other FG company. Period.

Seriously, not only you keep down-playing Starfire but now keep bashing NRS and WB just because of that alone, including justifying those 2 bullshit videos, while Starfire was never bad in IJ2?

Dude, just stop.
 
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Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
He's back, analyzing the animations in Injustice 2 this time

The guy is an animation professional so all he sees is animation, which causes him to get salty that Inj2 won best game of the year. I'm pretty sure that award is about a lot more than just the animation. I don't think T7 or GG have even a fraction of the single player experience Inj2 has. Anyway...

I agree about the animation of NRS games being sub-par. But for us in the community we pretty much know it's because of the 3D modelling engine for 2D games. NRS loves using that engine for modelling because they can do a lot more with how the game looks than other fighting games.

However the using that engine makes life difficult for animating because of them having to tie the hurtbox and hitbox to the character model. That's why characters don't shift their center of mass while attempting a punch or a kick because Paulo doesn't want the character hurtbox to change while doing a s1 for example.

Other fighting games have better animation of moves because they don't have that problem. I don't think there's any other FG out there that uses a 3D character model for a 2D game.

It also explains why the guy in the video says the cinematic animations in the games are great but during gameplay it isn't; because you don't have to worry about the character hurtbox during cinematics so you're free to have them move however you like.

It also explains the whole stance switch button malarkey...


I'm just theorizing here of course, but I'm pretty sure that's the explanation. It makes a lot of sense to me.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
The guy is an animation professional so all he sees is animation, which causes him to get salty that Inj2 won best game of the year. I'm pretty sure that award is about a lot more than just the animation. I don't think T7 or GG have even a fraction of the single player experience Inj2 has. Anyway...

I agree about the animation of NRS games being sub-par. But for us in the community we pretty much know it's because of the 3D modelling engine for 2D games. NRS loves using that engine for modelling because they can do a lot more with how the game looks than other fighting games.

However the using that engine makes life difficult for animating because of them having to tie the hurtbox and hitbox to the character model. That's why characters don't shift their center of mass while attempting a punch or a kick because Paulo doesn't want the character hurtbox to change while doing a s1 for example.

Other fighting games have better animation of moves because they don't have that problem. I don't think there's any other FG out there that uses a 3D character model for a 2D game.

It also explains why the guy in the video says the cinematic animations in the games are great but during gameplay it isn't; because you don't have to worry about the character hurtbox during cinematics so you're free to have them move however you like.

It also explains the whole stance switch button malarkey...


I'm just theorizing here of course, but I'm pretty sure that's the explanation. It makes a lot of sense to me.
If that theory is true that it only makes those 2 videos even more invalid, as this guy basically tries to compare between 3 different animation directions of 2D engine with 2D modelling, 3D engine with 3D modelling, and 3D engine with 2D modelling, while NRS obviously going with the 3rd format while the rest are going with either one of the other 2, so that the cinematic animations, including the ones in the Story mode will look as good as they should be and the cutscenes will be able to transfer to the matches as good as they should. So he can't make that comparison. not to mention that the animations in both MKX and IJ2 are still amazing, and like I said in the comment section for his MKX vid some time ago, every single fighting game ever had at least some unrealistic elements to their animation or other stuff that will make anyone with a pair of nitpicky eyes to bash around, including those who he tried to compare to MKX, and the positive parts in those other games can be seen in MKX as well. On top of that he also criticized the Fatalities in MKX, which are presented in the cinematic style, again tries to find every excuse to bash non-stop, and that only hurts his credibility even more, among other stuff.
 
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Slymind

Noob
I don't know who they communicate better than, in comparison, but it doesn't matter: Their communication is improving but it's still on the level of TwitterSpoilers and that's rubbish in 2018.

I'm inclined to agree about Injustice 2 being more balanced than any of their games so far. Sadly, it still has major issues like some characters having a severe upper hand and others suffering to get by, but it's definitely an improvement to speak of.

.
Show me one fighting game in history of games that this does not happen.
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Other fighting games have better animation of moves because they don't have that problem. I don't think there's any other FG out there that uses a 3D character model for a 2D game.
Do you mean 3D models for the purpose of hitboxes in 2D FGs?
Do NRS still do that, and if so, what's even the reason?

If you mean literally 3D models for visual purposes, then pretty much every "big" 2D FG uses them. SF, KI, even freaking GG & DBZ.
 

Slymind

Noob
You said they have "major" issues in that department, and I simply do not see it(it was the case with MK9 and Igau). Having a fighting game where everyone is perfectly balanced is virtually impossible, the most you can do is to reduce the gap between characters as much as you can, and I2 so far is in a very solid spot. So i asked for at least one example where the bolded didn't occur. Stating that there are stronger and weaker characters in a fighting game, is almost the same as saying water is wet.

NRS should be criticized where they need to improve, but balance is one of the things they have been quite thoughtful especially since the removal of armored launchers in MKX.
 
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Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Do you mean 3D models for the purpose of hitboxes in 2D FGs?
Do NRS still do that, and if so, what's even the reason?

If you mean literally 3D models for visual purposes, then pretty much every "big" 2D FG uses them. SF, KI, even freaking GG & DBZ.
I'm pretty sure everything is 3D in NRS games, and they just make it 2D but not changing the "camera" position. The character model contains the hurtbox itself, they're not separate. I think in SFV and the other games the hurtbox just tracks the character model but it's not built in it.

There are PC hacks you can install in all NRS games since MK9 that makes you control the camera position and you get to see everything in 3D. I don't think that's possible in other FGs (not as in the tool isn't available, but the game engine itself doesn't allow that).

And that's why I think we'll never get a hitbox/hurtbox viewer like other games have. Because it's in 3D and you just can't draw a box to show the hurt/attacking areas.
 
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Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
The character model contains the hurtbox itself, they're not separate. I think in SFV and the other games the hurtbox just tracks the character model but it's not built in it.
BTW I think a proof this is the "breathing hurtbox" issue. The idle animations of characters in NRS games changes their hurtbox as they're moving, but if you look at SFV hurtbox viewers you'll see the character hurtbox locked in place while the character is doing their idle animation.

Also you can see this in Inj2 when testing juggling combos on flying characters vs grounded characters. The juggles are different.
 
Is this the guy that trash talked the stance switch button?. That button is important for many things in MKX and MK9. I say don't feed the troll.
There's some examples:
MKX liu kang combo adjustment via stance switch.
Lab notes MK9 pt1
Lab noter MK9 pt2
I would only ask to decrease the recovery and add more low invincibility for the stance switch button in the next mortal kombat game. That would be so awesome to see.

Just don't mind this troll. He wouldn't make a decent fighting game himself.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Is this the guy that trash talked the stance switch button?. That button is important for many things in MKX and MK9. I say don't feed the troll.
There's some examples:
MKX liu kang combo adjustment via stance switch.
Lab notes MK9 pt1
Lab noter MK9 pt2
I would only ask to decrease the recovery and add more low invincibility for the stance switch button in the next mortal kombat game. That would be so awesome to see.

Just don't mind this troll. He wouldn't make a decent fighting game himself.
Wow I had no idea those things existed, great stuff. And yeah, that guy is a troll, no doubt.
 

C-Sword

Noob
The same combo should be doable in every stance, the direction your character is facing shouldn't affect the gameplay. Why do characters get up only to fall back down after being defeated in Injustice? I'd understand why that is there in MK, but there are no finishing moves in Injustice.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
The same combo should be doable in every stance, the direction your character is facing shouldn't affect the gameplay. Why do characters get up only to fall back down after being defeated in Injustice? I'd understand why that is there in MK, but there are no finishing moves in Injustice.
The Stance Switch button is a good thing, it only adds depth to the gameplay, and also more realism as the characters aren't have to face the camera all the time. From both visual and gameplay standpoint, the Stand Switch button is a good thing.,