What's new

7 Ways NRS can make MK11 a much polished game gameplaywise

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
After playing this game for a while, I can't say that I don't enjoy it at least some part of it, but it always gets me the feeling that the game itself has its shortcomings on things I feel the game could offer a bit more.
The annoyance of things that you have to deal with this game, it doesn't push you to become better, it pushes you to become bored of the game, stay out as much as possible, and then when you return you realize why you left in the first place and it keeps going back and forth.

I don't want to throw my pitchforks at NRS, or like the terms some would use, burn our bridges, I understand if they don't have enough manpower to test through game bugs and glitches when they have to focus on releasing DLCs every X months and content for the game which seems to be main focus, I thought I could make this thread so if any NRS employee would read it, could make it with the open mind, free of name callings and words that otherwise would lead to think that I hate the game. More like a suggestion consumer experience that is willing to give feedback towards having an everlasting MK11 game which not only myself, but maybe even others get to enjoy this game a lot more.

For once I believe, that if those instances aren't looked at and stay the way it is, the game will always require drastic changes to the characters itself and we won't even be able to Enjoy somethings because the loop we are playing no matter the superficial change will always be the same.

#1 Mechanics Refinement

Problem 1: Short Hops
Some of the things that I like the implementation of it but doesn't seem to work that well IMO are short hops, for moves that are supposed to go over anything that is a low, short hops have very little use because they don't have invulnerability once executed, which makes something like, using short hop to avoid d3, d4 and d1s after you block certain moves or force them to block certain moves a lot more irrelevant since any of those moves can get you even when you are already in the air. With Short hops having a sort of invincibility against these attacks will provide a different layer in the close game other than block or FLB or tech a throw in order to keep the offense going, you can still have lows that Anti-Air jump attacks, even if I'm not really a fan of this design, but short hops up close would give more depth to the poke meta itself.

Problem 2: Anti-Airs
I feel like this one go back and forth with the short hop, and there is no denying Jumps are really strong in this game, due to the random timing factor that it provides, there is a strong discouragement to anti-air someone consistently unless they have a good and fast hitbox for it

How do you solve these 2 problems? Simple, you add a feature in the game engine that does the following:
a) Define the type of attacks used in the game(, Projectile, Special attack, Fatal blow, Throws, Command Throws, High, Mid, Low, Overhead) Any move in the game will be under some of these categories
b)Then define another code which one can say: attack x is immune to Y type of attacks for X amount of frames.

This will solve a lot of nuances, it means when you design immunity proprieties for a fighting game, its a good and practical idea, define proprieties for moves, even if those are lows, highs, specials, normals, anything should be tagged, not just projectiles, or throws, so that when you face issues such as the one we do now, proper tools to balance those moves are easier to implement

Problem 3: Mobility and back dash activating counter hits
For some reason, I feel like space is so important in this game, that dashing into normals kinda cheats it, I honestly feel this game doesn't need a cancelable forward dash, definitely no when most of the moves already cover enough space to even call itself a footsie tool, I definitely feel this game doesn't need forward cancelable dashes, I would keep the back dashes however since those seem more clunky. Someone being counter hit or Crushing Blows while trying to escape its not the right way IMO.

problem 4: Throws
Considering the input lag of this game are 4 frames, I have to congratulate NRS to give a game with the minimum amount possible of input lag, however throws are too fast in this game, they are a 50-50 on their own, and the tech window is incredibly small.
If the time someone takes to input a throw is technically 14 frames due the input lag, the time someone takes to react to the animation after throw starts are 6 frames due the input lag, and the time one takes to break a throw window are 4 frames less due to the input lag. I sometimes let go off block as late as I can but in that last instant they are still able to grab me and it feels unfair, to avoid throws I have to commit to duck, and I as a reactionary player rather than a gambler, it's not a decision that I think it benefits my archetype at all.
It is not exactly the input lag that is the problem, but the windows which the throws are made and the window which the throws are meant to be broken are directly affected by the input lag itself, if you really want to give players a game with this threshold, it should compensate for the amount of input lag that it has, meaning a 14 to 12f throw window, and 4 more frames to break both throws, this would make a huge difference and even with online lag or anything else, the frames that compensate will directly affect players reactions more often.


Problem 5: Flawless Blocks
You guys nerfed to make offense more relevant, that's cool, but here are some things that feel unfair:
a) There are moves when blocked have a pushback animation, the same happens when the same move is flawless blocked, this honestly shouldn't be, if a player flawless block an attack he should launch, he was already rewarded for guessing correctly, it shouldn't require the player to be extra clean in order to get a punish he already made the right read, there is a lot of moves in this game with this problem and its a turn off from the game, it doesn't matter if you make the right read, you can't still launch it because opponent's move is just too good even if you flawless block.

A good idea would be, any move that has a pushback and its safe, when flawless blocked the character shouldn't be pushed back, a character should always come out of the block stun 2 frames earlier without using launchers at least to reduce other players to spam moves when blocked this would give so much depth to the game.
Imagine if a move is -7 on block, but you flawless block that move instead, now that move it's -9 on block making it punishable, you can still have those moves which you guys decide how negative it will be if flawless blocked, but would be nice to come out of block 2 frames earlier than regular block.


Problem 6: Poke system
I'm sorry NRS but its trash, its literally the worst poke system you guys ever designed, you guys literally broke the written rule I thought you guys would never do after mk9.
You guys gave characters with 5f to 7f pokes that are -3 to -5 frames on block on games where the fastest mid for some are 13f, by default these characters are always plus when they poke is blocked, some have insane range have no gaps when special cancelable, less recovery even if it whiffs and make them a lot more spammy, its basically MK9 Cyrax all over again with a 0f jab that is 8f on a game where the majority of the characters jabs were 12f startup

Suggestion: Just stop, give pokes some better rules because right now they are terrible, Start by losing that window in between a poke and a special on block, that can't be interrupted by anything, these are literally terrible. Every character in this game when they poke, they should be around -6 at best, and no pokes should've been 5 to 6f, the fastest poke in the game should be 7f and finally mids should be 11f startup just like MKX, not 13f

Problem 7: Punishing
Some moves have pushbacks for unnecessary reasons, the fact that we can't punish -7 with 7f normals it is already an ideal I don't think anyone wants any more, so maybe allowing us to punish moves from what it is really worth it like, if its -7 and we use a 7f move we can punish. On top of reducing the amount of blockstun which feels like we're playing underwater for the most time especially when we can do much quicker responses would be so nice.


I could go on and talk about character specifics, but I think these 7 issues are what currently holds MK11 to be a game everyone can enjoy and strive to become stronger, these 7 issues are key factor on how the meta is shaped in this game, if these 7 issues are no more, I can guarantee you we would have a much healthy game, less complaint about moves, and if by any chance moves started to be an issue again after this, it wouldn't be because of these problems.
 

NaCl man

Welcome to Akihabara
I still think d2 as a universal AA is the way to go.
Don't take away other AA options but leave the risk with the more rewarding options.

A couple frames of upper body invincibility or a shift of the hurt box might fix it. I 've had a few times I've made a read on a throw and d2d but still got thrown. This might also fix this.
 

Belial

Noob
Suprisingly good write-up. Admit i was sceptical at first.
I think MK11 did great job with a lot of problems that haunted previous games. If I were to change 1 thing its Jump atacks (I have no clue why they keep doing this to their games). Anyway all suggestions are good and I hope NRS will take note.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
I agree with all of this. The throws in this game have made me completely change how I deal with throws in a fighting game. After a blocked stagger I usually do an option select like block up 2 and this either fb the next attack or techs throw. Same with auto shimmy. For instance if cage does 1 throw or 121 block pause block release block 2 (react if u need to hold block again for 121 at this point) defends against both. This solves the issue and reminds me somewhat of plinking in street fighter but defensive. I would prefer as you said a more reactive approach but after getting accustomed to defending in this way it is also somewhat interesting.
 

S+ Main

Noob
Ima be honest i didnt read the whoke thing but i did read aa's because thats what i want to fix the most.
I think if all character jump arcs went higher so there is a bit more time to react (online) and give d2 some upper body invincibility against only jump 1, 2 and 3's would be my suggestion to fixing aa's
 

DeftMonk

Noob
Ima be honest i didnt read the whoke thing but i did read aa's because thats what i want to fix the most.
I think if all character jump arcs went higher so there is a bit more time to react (online) and give d2 some upper body invincibility against only jump 1, 2 and 3's would be my suggestion to fixing aa's
If they were to start implementing stuff like this I would hope it would be implemented in other areas as well. Command throws getting stuffed by normal grabs or stuff like nightwolf’s shoilder charged getting smacked by s1 also seem weird imo.
Also like Eddie states a short hop which is clearly a move that should low crush get clipped by d4/d3
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
Agree with everything that you said. What's clear though is NRS doesnt come here and their priorities on the product are not about replayabilitity but more specticle. Flashy moves good graphics its clear bit doesnt grind the game I dont think any of them do. I am not 100% certain that they even know how the game out in the wild works. Bit mentions the "sonic fox character" in the combat cast. When it's legit brainiacs moves we know who went to tourney with character (PL) bit also mentions "jade who can combo" this is what happens when you let fans develop games. For all of MKXs faults it expanded the audience people had complaints hell yeah but we were finding tech 3 years later, mk11 is effectively shrinking the audience NRS lost a LOT of good will.

Mk11 is a game you like playing if winning isnt a primary objective. And in the fighting game genre that's a super poor mental space to be in.
 

Zer0_h0ur

XBL tag: South of Zero
Solid stuff.

Yeah i'm used to the poke system, even when i flawless block a poke, i still get poked or 9F mid back before my next button comes out, i don't even flinch about it, i just accept it. Dumb.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
Yeah, block stun is stupid.

I can block Shao Khans shoulder charge, go for 12~nut punch, and I'll just get standing 2 into nothing...cool...There's something really wrong with that. Sure, you get a 20 frame window to punish, but first you have to wait through 20 frames of block stun. It's completely ridiculous. I know I blocked the move, I know I get to punish. Just let me fucking punish.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
Yeah, block stun is stupid.

I can block Shao Khans shoulder charge, go for 12~nut punch, and I'll just get standing 2 into nothing...cool...There's something really wrong with that. Sure, you get a 20 frame window to punish, but first you have to wait through 20 frames of block stun. It's completely ridiculous. I know I blocked the move, I know I get to punish. Just let me fucking punish.
When you play everyday or your offline this kinda stuff isnt as much of an issue but why is it an issue at all? I don't think nrs cares so much tho about the stuff Eddy went over which kinda sucks. At first I was kinda of the camp thinking that d2 getting thrown was ok because NRS wants you to whiff punish to get the KB but, later on I kinda came to the thinking that its pretty stupid as well. If you make the read, you should be able to accomplish what you want even in 150+ ping. Tekken doesn't have this issue at all.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
When you play everyday or your offline this kinda stuff isnt as much of an issue but why is it an issue at all? I don't think nrs cares so much tho about the stuff Eddy went over which kinda sucks. At first I was kinda of the camp thinking that d2 getting thrown was ok because NRS wants you to whiff punish to get the KB but, later on I kinda came to the thinking that its pretty stupid as well. If you make the read, you should be able to accomplish what you want even in 150+ ping. Tekken doesn't have this issue at all.
Oh yeah, that's one of my favorite things too...I read a throw, I react a little too fast and get thrown. Nope, gotta wait for them to whiff for a year before D2KB works.

Game is doodoo
 

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
The only thing that saves this game, from taking the "trash spot" is the pseudo balance that everyone is talking about. I cant even enjoy this game on the best drugs on the market I can get. Whenever I see a guy on a wheel chair, it reminds me of MK11.
 

Groove Heaven

Jobber-baron
I pretty much agree with everything here. I actually really enjoy this game but on more of a casual level than when I was really into MK9, SFIV, SFV, etc. It doesn't make me wanna push myself to get better like those games did/do, mainly because of what I think are ridiculous mechanics like 50/50 throws, a fucking garbotrash poke system, and comically strong jump-ins.

I don't think this is a bad game at all but it really hurts to have a game hark back to MK9, include new and interesting ideas like krushing blows and auto-refill meter, and overall have so much potential to be great, then kind of ruin it by including a bunch of wack aspects that other fighting games would never have. MK11 feels like the bare bones of great neutral but then the gimmicky shit weakens it.
 

ZeroSymbolic

Social Justice Barbarian
Lets get consistent hotboxes first. Hard to defend and counter things when sometimes the box is one way and another time its different
 
Yeah, the rose tinted glasses are gone and I find difficulty enjoying the game too. I find myself playing other games like apex and wanting to play other fighting games cuz those work closer to as intended. The other day someone’s u3 hit me when I clearly jumped over em. I can’t break throws cuz they’re too fast, can’t anti air cuz lol good luck bruh. And the amount of times I blocked something and the jacked up block stun in the game made me do half an input like another poster said.....bruh. I actually play the game happy in the beginning and get so stressed I gotta stop cuz things don’t work how it’s supposed to. Somethings gotta change and if I get double d1’d/d3’d one more time man I swear.
 

Gaxkang

Banned
Yeah, the rose tinted glasses are gone and I find difficulty enjoying the game too. I find myself playing other games like apex and wanting to play other fighting games cuz those work closer to as intended. The other day someone’s u3 hit me when I clearly jumped over em. I can’t break throws cuz they’re too fast, can’t anti air cuz lol good luck bruh. And the amount of times I blocked something and the jacked up block stun in the game made me do half an input like another poster said.....bruh. I actually play the game happy in the beginning and get so stressed I gotta stop cuz things don’t work how it’s supposed to. Somethings gotta change and if I get double d1’d/d3’d one more time man I swear.
Well I mainly play single player these days...but to unlock some content I gotta play online. But playing online is just irksome.