Strategy - A-List 04/10/16 A-list patch - Cancelling system clarification

[Saltea Mike]

Hey guys,

So we've all seen the balance patch notes. I'll try to write down my understanding of the current a-list cancelling pressure. Please note that this is my own understanding and it may not be a 100% correct - if you think you found an error in my train of thought - please feel free to comment and discuss.

Let us begin.

The most important parts of the patch for a-list cancels are as follow:

• Increased energy cost to start running to 25 (up from 15)
• Increased energy cost to cancel into a dash (where applicable) to 25 (up from 15)
• Getting hit while running will now drain 50 energy

And a-list specific:

• Johnny Cage (A-List) - added 5 frames before a dash cancel is active if a move is charged during the opponents block stun

This changes a couple of things:

1. First of all we can no longer do 2 run cancels. What we can do - however - is 1 run cancel and 1 dash cancel. I'll give some examples of possible pressure string later on.

2. The moment we get hit by a poke (or any attack for that matter) while applying pressure with running up and pressing buttons or run cancelling - we are basically out of stamina. How you ask? Since starting to run takes 25 stamina (1/4) and getting hit while running takes away 50 stamina (2/4) we are left at most of the times without stamina. What this means is we have to be way more aware of our stamina management, since running in or cancelling may equal death. No stamina for longer period of time = no breaker and probably death.

3. Now for the breakthrough. What the specific a-list change means - is basically less advantage on block while performing all of ours run cancel moves. That goes both for run cancelled moves [12(1), f3,(4)] and shadowkick runcancels (basically every move cancelled into shadowkick).

Sadly - there was a "hidden nerf" which could be a very drastic problem for us. When it comes to timing cancels on block and on-hit there is a difference. The change itself isn't just "taking + frames away" but a change considering blockstun. Having more + frames differs from more blockstun frames.

I know it may sound blunt since im not the best at explaining things - but @Asodimazze has put it very nicely. I'll hope he wont have anything against me quoting what he wrote. Kudos.

Spoiler: Explanation on blockstun frames

This change is a huge pain in the ass to deal with, because the cancel timing is significantly different if the move connects on hit or block but the player has no way to know if the opponent will block the move.
Guessing the timing of the cancel is just stupid and if you presume the move is going to hit, but the opponent blocks it, the cancel doesn' come out at all and Cage dies.

I can understand the block advantage nerf, but making the player guess to perform his own stuff properly is wrong, so I hope a hotfix will solve this problem.

It also becomes incredibly stupid in some situations, here is an example: since day 1 12(1)rc might whiff his first or second hit against some characters blocking low (like Cassie). If the Cage players sees the opponent blocking the first hit and change his cancel timing accordingly, he will get stuck in the animation when the second hit whiffs (lol).

This big difference of cancel execution when the opponent is in blockstun or not will create huge problems, guaranteed.

Now the following is the most current most-probable framedata on cancels. Going by the logic of -5 frames of advantage I have used @BoricuaHeat 's framedata from the following thread of his and derived what follows:

Spoiler: Guide - A-List Run Cancel Frame Data

https://testyourmight.com/threads/run-cancel-frame-data.53811/

F3xxSKRC = +12
F2xxSKRC = +9
F24xxSKRC = +6
D4xxSKRC = 0
114xxSKRC = +12
113xxSKRC = -4
4xxSKRC = +18
333xxSKRC = +10
B34xxSKRC = +12
21xxSKRC = +2

F3,(4) RC = +7
12(1) RC = +3

This changes a lot of things.

The cancels marked red are cancels that are the most viable ones.
However I myself haven't gotten a chance yet to play on the new patched version of the game - but as far as I've seen jailing from:

I would just like to note that the framedata might be a little off, but the following should be working:

4 xx skrc, 1 (leaving a lot of frames for inputting - 9f)
4 xx skrc, f3 (about 6f for inputs)
4 xx skrc, f2 (about 3f for inputs)
4 xx skrc, 3 (about 4f for inputs)
F3 xx skrc, 1 (about 3f for inputs)
F3 xx skrc, F3 (this is a frame perfect cancel - leaving no frames for input errors you're +12 and inputting a 11f move)

Examples of on-hit confirming combos:

f3skrc,JI2,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 29%
f3skrc,12(1)dc,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch =27% (You can replace the skrc with a skdc if you dont have full stamina)

12(1)rc,JI2,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 28%
12(1)rc,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 26% (You can replace the skrc with a skdc if you dont have full stamina)

113skrc,12(1)dc,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 28%

f2skrc,12(1)dc,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 27%
f24,d1,f24nutpunch = 24%

JIP,b34skrc,JI2,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 33%


To sum up - this is my understanding of the changes. If I got something confused - please do comment.

 

[SaSSolino]

Cancel nerfs! Hurray for my low execution brothers!

 

[DR.Innuendo]

yeah as much as this may hurt others, im sorry JC. but every cancel pressure character got this, its universal, and i am very happy about Fisty getting the buffs he did. this made the game more toned down, along with the loss of HTB's with many mechanics making them go away like Double/Tripple hitting armor.

 

[GOOD DRAGON]

As far as i know he can only jail S4 on block now. Is this true? If so then your off by a couple of frames- so for example S4 will be +16 not +18

 

[Saltea Mike]

As far as i know he can only jail S4 on block now. Is this true? If so then your off by a couple of frames- so for example S4 will be +16 not +18

The framedata I've written is correct. I'll be updating this thread with more jailing strings and normals.

It's not true you can jail only off of 4 - and it is my friend +18 since it used to be +23 and since we have -5 frames on block it's +18 now.

 

[GOOD DRAGON]

The framedata I've written is correct. I'll be updating this thread with more jailing strings and normals.

It's not true you can jail only off of 4 - and it is my friend +18 since it used to be +23 and since we have -5 frames on block it's +18 now.

So have you tried jailing f3 against reptiles 6frame slide or anything else apart from s4?? and i thought S4 was +21 not +23 my bad.

 

[Saltea Mike]

So have you tried jailing f3 against reptiles 6frame slide or anything else apart from s4?? and i thought S4 was +21 not +23 my bad.

I myself have not. Like I wrote I currently dont have the time to play, but @EVB_VenDeTTa did check when I asked him to. Works.

 

[Zionix]

I wrote what jailed still in vendettas stream. F3 still jails into F3 the only issue is that is does nothing. They have essentially made the rc part of a-list dead. You will need to do SKRC if you want to continue to be a threat with the character.

A-list might be the worst of the three now but time will tell. We have no mix-up now 12(1) rc F2 is gone, the delay is hilarious. HOWEVER with armored launchers gone; 11 (stagger) F2 or D4 will have less of a threat of being blown up on a reversal and eating 30% into oki. This is the positives that we need to look at when moving forward with the new meta.

As for the block stun timing nerf, its absolutely nothing. We will be used to it within a week if we keep using a-list. Its not worth crying over.

Before people start doomsday they need to remember that the game has changed alot, our biggest problem going forward won't be that we can't cancel three times. It will be getting zoned out by pyro and mournful and GM (shudders). We can finally use all three variations of cage and it feels good.

 

[GOOD DRAGON]

I wrote what jailed still in vendettas stream. F3 still jails into F3 the only issue is that is does nothing. They have essentially made the rc part of a-list dead. You will need to do SKRC if you want to continue to be a threat with the character.

A-list might be the worst of the three now but time will tell. We have no mix-up now 12(1) rc F2 is gone, the delay is hilarious. HOWEVER with armored launchers gone; 11 (stagger) F2 or D4 will have less of a threat of being blown up on a reversal and eating 30% into oki. This is the positives that we need to look at when moving forward with the new meta.

As for the block stun timing nerf, its absolutely nothing. We will be used to it within a week if we keep using a-list. Its not worth crying over.

Before people start doomsday they need to remember that the game has changed alot, our biggest problem going forward won't be that we can't cancel three times. It will be getting zoned out by pyro and mournful and GM (shudders). We can finally use all three variations of cage and it feels good.

I love your optimism but can you really see a point in playing a-list still. It's 1 thing to balance cancel characters maybe give them less damage or tighter cancels and make them more or less on the same level as the other variations. But lets not beat around the bush this is a massacre of characters that needed good execution to be able to be played well in the first place - so where is the reward for learning the cancels and playing a higher than average execution character? I don't see any

 

[Saltea Mike]

I wrote what jailed still in vendettas stream. F3 still jails into F3 the only issue is that is does nothing. They have essentially made the rc part of a-list dead. You will need to do SKRC if you want to continue to be a threat with the character.

A-list might be the worst of the three now but time will tell. We have no mix-up now 12(1) rc F2 is gone, the delay is hilarious. HOWEVER with armored launchers gone; 11 (stagger) F2 or D4 will have less of a threat of being blown up on a reversal and eating 30% into oki. This is the positives that we need to look at when moving forward with the new meta.

As for the block stun timing nerf, its absolutely nothing. We will be used to it within a week if we keep using a-list. Its not worth crying over.

Before people start doomsday they need to remember that the game has changed alot, our biggest problem going forward won't be that we can't cancel three times. It will be getting zoned out by pyro and mournful and GM (shudders). We can finally use all three variations of cage and it feels good.

We spoke on Ven's stream

Indeed this is nothing to be crying about since all we need is a couple of manual adjustments.

The fact that there are no armored launchers (besides 2 bar-burnable ones) HELPS pressure-heavy characters like cage. Keeping another character in the corner will be easier since there is only a threat of either being poked out of not-jailing cancel and armor wakeups - which usually results in hard knockdown ... and let's face it - it's nothing really to be afraid of.

Cage always had troubles getting out of zoning-heavy characters. Especially now, when getting hit while running basically kills any offense.

I love your optimism but can you really see a point in playing a-list still. It's 1 thing to balance cancel characters maybe give them less damage or tighter cancels and make them more or less on the same level as the other variations. But lets not beat around the bush this is a massacre of characters that needed good execution to be able to be played well in the first place - so where is the reward for learning the cancels and playing a higher than average execution character? I don't see any

Let's not overreact.

The fact that armored launchers are gone means you can apply even more pressure. The only real threat being armored knockdown or being poked out of a cancel.

A-list is still viable. However not as viable as he used to be.

 

[Zionix]

I love your optimism but can you really see a point in playing a-list still. It's 1 thing to balance cancel characters maybe give them less damage or tighter cancels and make them more or less on the same level as the other variations. But lets not beat around the bush this is a massacre of characters that needed good execution to be able to be played well in the first place - so where is the reward for learning the cancels and playing a higher than average execution character? I don't see any

Its not about being optimistic, its about understanding that the game has changed and adaption will be needed. I can still do 114 SKRC F2 or D4 and if the opponent wants to spend a bar to do 10% to me that's far better than getting OS'd for 35%.

NRS wants to have a game where the grand finals are not mocked by even its games own players. They want people from other games to think MK takes great patience and footsies. Not herp derp armored 50/50 launchers or Jailing for days.

I hardly play SFV but watching the recent ESL finals was incredible, the top internationals do confirms that are so much harder than anything we do or need to do now, they didn't have auto i win jump ins and 50/50s they had to condition and space their opponents perfectly to win and react within frames of jab landing to complete the combo. I watch MK Grand finals and its just rushdown, armored reversal madness its not great for the games image or NRS games of the future.

A-list might of been nerfed into non existence but if its for the good of the game overall and the game is better and recognized better competitively; then i'm happy.

 

[Asodimazze]

As for the block stun timing nerf, its absolutely nothing. We will be used to it within a week if we keep using a-list. Its not worth crying over.

I strongly disagree with this, you can adapt to the different timing only if you know that your move will connect on hit or on block, but there are many situations in which you just can't.

Essential stuff like f2skrc, 113skrc after the opponent blocks the first two hits, f3skrc, even 4skrc (to some extent) are compromised.

5frames of delay means that if the JC player executes the cancel fast presuming he will hit the opponent, the execution will backfire when the opponent blocks: the cancel won't come out at all. You can't change your timing after realizing the opponent blocked the single hit, and if you delay every cancel you do to not risk anything, you won't get combos on hit (f2skrc, 12 won't work if you wait 5 frames, same for 113skrc).

Not to mention that when you do 12(1)rc against small duck blocking opponents, sometimes the 2nd hit will wiff and the cancel timing will be different compared to the opponent blocking the whole string...and it will create absurd problems.

I'm fine with every nerf, but I don't agree with this nonsense and hope NRS will fix it. Making the player guess his own execution is truly dumb and makes playing A-List not enjoyable at all.

 

[Saltea Mike]

I strongly disagree with this, you can adapt to the different timing only if you know that your move will connect on hit or on block, but there are many situations in which you just can't.

Essential stuff like f2skrc, 113skrc after the opponent blocks the first two hits, f3skrc, even 4skrc (to some extent) are compromised.

5frames of delay means that if the JC player executes the cancel fast presuming he will hit the opponent, the execution will backfire when the opponent blocks: the cancel won't come out at all. You can't change your timing after realizing the opponent blocked the single hit, and if you delay every cancel you do to not risk anything, you won't get combos on hit (f2skrc, 12 won't work if you wait 5 frames, same for 113skrc).

Not to mention that when you do 12(1)rc against small duck blocking opponents, sometimes the 2nd hit will wiff and the cancel timing will be different compared to the opponent blocking the whole string...and it will create absurd problems.

I'm fine with every nerf, but I don't agree with this nonsense and hope NRS will fix it. Making the player guess his own execution is truly dumb and makes playing A-List not enjoyable at all.

Well I think that you're partially right.

But won't the problem get fixed by executing the cancels slower everytime? Doesn't matter if it's on block or on hit?

Since on-hit cancels have more + frames you can just charge the shadowkick a little longer than it used to be.

I haven't gotten a chance to check it out yet, but wouldn't that work?

 

[Darkling]

I'm not sure about Asomidazze's timing problem so I will not comment on that. But guys, JC is not dead, or at least please try to lab the game enough before jumping into conclusion. My first thought is that 12 RC being nerf hits JC quite hard, but JC still has top-tier footsie with F3 and D4, his stagger game into throw or F2 or D4 is still a thing, not to mention his forceball is not touched while running being nerfed means that he can zone decently and being plus after ex forceball. No armor launcher also helps JC's pressure a lot imo.

He MAY not be able to contest the new top-tier (and we can't be sure about that), but definitely he is not dead. Lab the game guys.

 

[Saltea Mike]

I'm not sure about Asomidazze's timing problem so I will not comment on that. But guys, JC is not dead, or at least please try to lab the game enough before jumping into conclusion. My first thought is that 12 RC being nerf hits JC quite hard, but JC still has top-tier footsie with F3 and D4, his stagger game into throw or F2 or D4 is still a thing, not to mention his forceball is not touched while running being nerfed means that he can zone decently and being plus after ex forceball. No armor launcher also helps JC's pressure a lot imo.

He MAY not be able to contest the new top-tier (and we can't be sure about that), but definitely he is not dead. Lab the game guys.

I think there was a hidden buff to stunt double's forceball - seems a little faster.
Also there was a little nerf to forceballs - less damage on hit. Nothing serious.

 

[Darkling]

I think there was a hidden buff to stunt double's forceball - seems a little faster.
Also there was a little nerf to forceballs - less damage on hit. Nothing serious.

If I remember correctly they only nerfed the forceball in SD, and we are talking about Alist pressure right? To be honest I was really surprised that we kept F3 and F3 whiff cancel, as well as forceball is +4. Of course alist is not like the one we used to know, but look at Kotal and Mileena B1, we should understand that JC is not nerfed to dead. Once again, I don't know whether a-list is good or bad because I haven't labbed the game enough, but everybody is crying a bit too hard while it's day 1

 

[Asodimazze]

Well I think that you're partially right.

But won't the problem get fixed by executing the cancels slower everytime? Doesn't matter if it's on block or on hit?

Since on-hit cancels have more + frames you can just charge the shadowkick a little longer than it used to be.

I haven't gotten a chance to check it out yet, but wouldn't that work?

I should test how plus we are on hit after each situation, but I'm pretty sure that delaying the run cancel for 5 frames prevents JC to perform many combos. A few examples are f3dc into f3, maybe f3dc into s1, f2skrc f3, 113skrc f2 or f3, etc...

 

[Zionix]

I strongly disagree with this, you can adapt to the different timing only if you know that your move will connect on hit or on block, but there are many situations in which you just can't.

Essential stuff like f2skrc, 113skrc after the opponent blocks the first two hits, f3skrc, even 4skrc (to some extent) are compromised.

5frames of delay means that if the JC player executes the cancel fast presuming he will hit the opponent, the execution will backfire when the opponent blocks: the cancel won't come out at all. You can't change your timing after realizing the opponent blocked the single hit, and if you delay every cancel you do to not risk anything, you won't get combos on hit (f2skrc, 12 won't work if you wait 5 frames, same for 113skrc).

Not to mention that when you do 12(1)rc against small duck blocking opponents, sometimes the 2nd hit will wiff and the cancel timing will be different compared to the opponent blocking the whole string...and it will create absurd problems.

I'm fine with every nerf, but I don't agree with this nonsense and hope NRS will fix it. Making the player guess his own execution is truly dumb and makes playing A-List not enjoyable at all.

Higher skill cap does not equal bad. Only makes it more impressive when you do it. I for one won't be using 12 (1) rc nearly as much. F2 is a weird one for sure.

I agree with all your points however.

 

[llabslb]

I was planning on making a thread like this but I'm glad you made one. At the moment it's way too early to truly comment on A-Lists status and run cancel characters in general for that matter. But Asodimazze is 100% right. The 5f delay only applying on blockstun is a pain in the ass and simply unreliable. General bnbs and pressure also need to be re-evaluated, whole new game for us. Let's have fun and try find stuff for now.

 

[Saltea Mike]

I should test how plus we are on hit after each situation, but I'm pretty sure that delaying the run cancel for 5 frames prevents JC to perform many combos. A few examples are f3dc into f3, maybe f3dc into s1, f2skrc f3, 113skrc f2 or f3, etc...

Asso - remember. This change should consider only cancels ON BLOCK since the change is -5 frames on blockstun not on-hit. So the cancel inputs on-hit should be the same they were.. Only more stamina is being takes resulting in 1 run cancel and 1 dash cancel.

 

[Darkling]

Asso - remember. This change should consider only cancels ON BLOCK since the change is -5 frames on blockstun not on-hit. So the cancel inputs on-hit should be the same they were.. Only more stamina is being takes resulting in 1 run cancel and 1 dash cancel.

Based on what I understand, because they ONLY change ON BLOCK that make it hard for us now.

 

[jaylee777]

You can also jail 114 xx skrc, 1

We will have to get used to using dash cancels (dc) in our combos now.

These are the highest damage meterless combos that I've come up with:

f3skrc,JI2,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 29%
f3skrc,12(1)dc,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch =27% (You can replace the skrc with a skdc if you dont have full stamina)

12(1)rc,JI2,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 28%
12(1)rc,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 26% (You can replace the skrc with a skdc if you dont have full stamina)

113skrc,12(1)dc,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 28%

f2skrc,12(1)dc,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 27%
f24,d1,f24nutpunch = 24%

JIP,b34skrc,JI2,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 33%

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

well looks like a list johnny wont be winning anymore majors. he was that broke before the patch that he won so many of them -_- . sigh. fire paulo

 

[Saltea Mike]

You can also jail 114 xx skrc, 1

We will have to get used to using dash cancels (dc) in our combos now.

These are the highest damage meterless combos that I've come up with:

f3skrc,JI2,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 29%
f3skrc,12(1)dc,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch =27% (You can replace the skrc with a skdc if you dont have full stamina)

12(1)rc,JI2,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 28%
12(1)rc,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 26% (You can replace the skrc with a skdc if you dont have full stamina)

113skrc,12(1)dc,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 28%

f2skrc,12(1)dc,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 27%
f24,d1,f24nutpunch = 24%

JIP,b34skrc,JI2,f4,f24,d1,f3nutpunch = 33%

I knew that 114 skrc 1 jailed - but it often happens that the second 1 after jailing whiffs - even tho it's a mid - creating a gap. I've seen it happen.

Good stuff, I'll attach this to the OP if you don't mind.

well looks like a list johnny wont be winning anymore majors. he was that broke before the patch that he won so many of them -_- . sigh. fire paulo

Come on Xaraka, I've seen your games as A-list. Crisp F3SKRC cancels.
Let's not give up on the actor!

 

[Asodimazze]

Asso - remember. This change should consider only cancels ON BLOCK since the change is -5 frames on blockstun not on-hit. So the cancel inputs on-hit should be the same they were.. Only more stamina is being takes resulting in 1 run cancel and 1 dash cancel.

I know that, but if the Cage player is in doubt about connecting his move and doesn't want to risk getting stuck in the charging animation if the opponent blocks, he should delay his cancel on purpose anyway, even if he eventually hits the opponent.

That's why I considered the 5f delay when talking about his chance to perform combos on hit while being safe about the execution in case of block.

(I hope what I wrote is understandable lol)