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Sub-Zero General Discussion Thread

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Samsara

Samsara

Resident Cynic
Real talk guys...

Axes or swords? What happened to the hamners?

Does NRS really just like axes this time around?

Are they a preferred weapon of Chinese warriors? I'll do some digging.
 
Samsara

Samsara

Resident Cynic
I've found it.

Like most design choices for Sub-Zero in MK11, they axes are actually a somewhat authentic type of battle axe used in Chinese warfare. They fell out of favor due to axes generally being to heavy and slow for effective use in combat. They really want Sub-Zero to read as 'warrior' and not so much 'ninja'.

The type of axe is called the Shuang Axe. Popularized as a pair of smaller axes with spear tips at the top and points at the base of the handle. This is based largely off the work called 'The Water Margin'.

I think the new Sub Zero is modeled highly off of this work. There are plot points that mirror the Lin Kuei redemption ark from the Cyber Initiative, as well as their center of operation namesake and location: the Liangshan Mountains. It's basically Chinese Robin Hood except they go on to be a defender of the people from corruption (lin Kuei defenders of earthrealm anyone)

 
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Lokheit

Lokheit

Noob
themilkman014 said:
I've found it.

Like most design choices for Sub-Zero in MK11, they axes are actually a somewhat authentic type of battle axe used in Chinese warfare. They fell out of favor to to axes generally being to heavy and slow for effective use in combat. They really want Sub-Zero to read as 'warrior' and not so much 'ninja'.

The type of axe is called the Shuang Axe. Popularized as a pair of smaller axes with spear tips at the top and points at the base of the handle. This is based largely off the work called 'The Water Margin'.

I think the new Sub Zero is modeled highly off of this work. There are plot points that mirror the Lin Kuei redemption ark from the Cyber Initiative, as well as their center of operation namesake and location: the Liangshan Mountains. It's basically Chinese Robin Hood except they go on to be a defender of the people from corruption (lin Kuei defenders of earthrealm anyone)
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Yeah, swords and polearms were still more common in chinese culture though.

My guess here:

- Shao Kahn is going to heavily feature Hammers and Spears.

- They probably didn't want to feature as many swords as MKX and they wanted Scorpion to keep his.

- Frost is going to feature daggers.

- Nightwolf isn't in the game, which frees axes.

Personally I think Subbie should have at least another weapon (he uses a spear during a fatality, but not for gameplay) and the Kori Sword would fit some of his strings more than the axes.

It would make his moveset look more original. Take other characters capable of forming magic weapons:

- Skarlett has Scythe, Whip and (non elemental) Dagger.

- Nighwolf had knife, tomahawk and bow.

- Subbie himself had sword, dagger and hammer in 2 previous games, so this feels like a downgrade.

Also Sub-Zero's third equipment slot is stupid and a second customizable ice weapon would've been way more interesting for this purpose too.
 
STB Sgt Reed

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Lin Kuei are also assassins who use stealth to complete their contracts. Axes don't exactly scream stealth warrior.

I feel like with him basically being able to spawn weapons at will like green lantern, they could have come up with something more unique than axes.
 
Samsara

Samsara

Resident Cynic
I agree with you guys. I think they should have at least given him more weapons

The axes just seem a little... inelegant? It works for the fatality but otherwise they just seem overlarge and a bit tacky. For a character so cool and reserved axes seem a little too barbaric and unrefined even with the martial arts style.
 
Lokheit

Lokheit

Noob
FWIW, Iceball has a bit of chip damage on block this time. Look here at around minute 49. Iceball on hit or armor hit deals no damage, on block deals 6.25, not a lot (equal to 0.625 for MKX standards) but hey, chip!

 
G

GhostOfSparta

Noob
Lokheit said:
Yeah, swords and polearms were still more common in chinese culture though.

My guess here:

- Shao Kahn is going to heavily feature Hammers and Spears.

- They probably didn't want to feature as many swords as MKX and they wanted Scorpion to keep his.

- Frost is going to feature daggers.

- Nightwolf isn't in the game, which frees axes.

Personally I think Subbie should have at least another weapon (he uses a spear during a fatality, but not for gameplay) and the Kori Sword would fit some of his strings more than the axes.

It would make his moveset look more original. Take other characters capable of forming magic weapons:

- Skarlett has Scythe, Whip and (non elemental) Dagger.

- Nighwolf had knife, tomahawk and bow.

- Subbie himself had sword, dagger and hammer in 2 previous games, so this feels like a downgrade.

Also Sub-Zero's third equipment slot is stupid and a second customizable ice weapon would've been way more interesting for this purpose too.
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First of all,hello to evreyone :D.
I really hate the new sub zeros looks,his design is such a letdown, he looks so lame,i mean his mkx look was sooo much cooler,he lookd great his base and kai liang costumes was so so great,plus his vocie,soo bad ass.Now he has bloodborne hat,whay just whay,am i only one who dosent like it?I think that nobody liked that sub zero shreder costume,and they chose to make him like that.Also his stance is bad i prefer his mkx or mk9 stance,please netherrealm fix this.
You lack conviction!
 
G

GhostOfSparta

Noob
LionHeart V1 said:
His look is more injustice inspired than MKX which i really don't like. Also i just much prefer the simpler designs of MKX for subzero and scorpion. I feel like there is too much going on.

He doesn't even look like the grandmaster anymore. His fighting stance is god awful too. I'm talking kitana MKX level bad. Why is he about to do a kamehameha wave.
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I feel the same way,his design is soo bad man,sutch a letdown,i hope they change that stupid hat and stance if not at least give me his mkx costume and il be happy at this point.
 
Lokheit

Lokheit

Noob
GhostOfSparta said:
I think that nobody liked that sub zero shreder costume,and they chose to make him like that.
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Actually I think most, myself included, loved the armor and want it back at least as a skin (and if its storymode related with the cryomancers better). I don't really see how the current costume looks like Deception Subbie.
 
G

GhostOfSparta

Noob
Lokheit said:
Actually I think most, myself included, loved the armor and want it back at least as a skin (and if its storymode related with the cryomancers better). I don't really see how the current costume looks like Deception Subbie.
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Am ok with that costume to be alternative no problem,but bottom line is this one that we got is dumb,bloodborne hat lol.
 
Imperium

Imperium

Noob
So with our first taste of actual gameplay... From what we've seen with Subzero on earlier builds, how do you think he fits with these three characters from the stress test? I'm not sure he has one outstanding tool like these other fighters have, but I think his neutral could be dangerous in a few ways.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Imperium said:
So with our first taste of actual gameplay... From what we've seen with Subzero on earlier builds, how do you think he fits with these three characters from the stress test? I'm not sure he has one outstanding tool like these other fighters have, but I think his neutral could be dangerous in a few ways.
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I think Sub-Zero looks like he should be pretty good. Still looks mobile and should have some powerful offense, but still be able to run away if needed.

I’m sorta thinking that rising ice is gonna be a must for just about every loadout.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Lokheit said:
It reminds me a lot to Infamous 2 ice jump, one of the first things I wanna try with it is checking synergies between rising ice and air polar axe Kitana style (but probably it won't work too much, specially without meter).
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I hope it’s a reliable anti air, but even if it’s just another launcher I’ll be set with that. SZ is already one of the only characters who can combo without amp (iceball), him having ANOTHER launcher and what looks like fairly easy to set up crushing blows, combined with what looks like a healthy balance of tools, he could be great.
 
Imperium

Imperium

Noob
Dankster Morgan said:
I think Sub-Zero looks like he should be pretty good. Still looks mobile and should have some powerful offense, but still be able to run away if needed.

I’m sorta thinking that rising ice is gonna be a must for just about every loadout.
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Here's my main concern with Subzero. He has three gear moves that are all pretty essential to his kit.

Kreeping Ice is essential so he has a safe special to cancel into. He also needs this to stagger opponents and keep them guessing.

Deep Freeze is essential for one reason, because it's the only thing that combos out of his F2. Subzero is totally neutrered without threats coming from his low starter and his overhead starter. A big 50/50 like that is rare in this game, and clearly a lot of effectiveness of his kit comes from it.

Then you have rising ice, which may be the only way outside of his slide KB or his FB that he can approach or top 300 damage in a combo. I guess this is the least essential, but if subzero wants to trade punches with other characters, he really needs this.

So that's the problem Deep Freeze is 2 slots so you can't equip all three of these moves. You're either sacrificing safety completely, you're gutting your 50/50, or you're keeping your combo damage at 260-270 max.
 
Lokheit

Lokheit

Noob
Imperium said:
Here's my main concern with Subzero. He has three gear moves that are all pretty essential to his kit.

Kreeping Ice is essential so he has a safe special to cancel into. He also needs this to stagger opponents and keep them guessing.

Deep Freeze is essential for one reason, because it's the only thing that combos out of his F2. Subzero is totally neutrered without threats coming from his low starter and his overhead starter. A big 50/50 like that is rare in this game, and clearly a lot of effectiveness of his kit comes from it.

Then you have rising ice, which may be the only way outside of his slide KB or his FB that he can approach or top 300 damage in a combo. I guess this is the least essential, but if subzero wants to trade punches with other characters, he really needs this.

So that's the problem Deep Freeze is 2 slots so you can't equip all three of these moves. You're either sacrificing safety completely, you're gutting your 50/50, or you're keeping your combo damage at 260-270 max.
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Gut that 50/50, play footsies instead, use Air Polar Axe to make them guess on jump ins (you can stop yourself mid air with it to punish anti-airs and wakeups, you can whiff air attacks and still use it and of course you can connect a jump in kick and connect the axe). In the corner you can probably keep the 50/50 with rising ice.

Also MB shoulder charge seems to do a huge lot of damage (it removes slide though, which sucks).
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Lokheit said:
Gut that 50/50, play footsies instead, use Air Polar Axe to make them guess on jump ins (you can stop yourself mid air with it to punish anti-airs and wakeups, you can whiff air attacks and still use it and of course you can connect a jump in kick and connect the axe). In the corner you can probably keep the 50/50 with rising ice.

Also MB shoulder charge seems to do a huge lot of damage (it removes slide though, which sucks).
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I’m really really hoping this is the case, I could see him being one note again, but I could also see there being characters where going all out on offense may not be the way to go.

I think he’s gonna be fun, hope so at least
 
Imperium

Imperium

Noob
Lokheit said:
Gut that 50/50, play footsies instead, use Air Polar Axe to make them guess on jump ins (you can stop yourself mid air with it to punish anti-airs and wakeups, you can whiff air attacks and still use it and of course you can connect a jump in kick and connect the axe). In the corner you can probably keep the 50/50 with rising ice.

Also MB shoulder charge seems to do a huge lot of damage (it removes slide though, which sucks).
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See here's the thing, I asked Mustard on twitter, if Kreeping ice or anything outside of Ex Ice ball combos out of F2, he said in the build he played, that it didn't.

So what you get as an overhead for your entire kit, is a 5% that can't be combo'd into anything, or a 17%, very easy to identify string that's -19 and an easy full combo punish.

I think if you want to play footsies, there's better characters to do that with. I think Subzero is only given a few tools that other fighters aren't given, and one of them is a nice 50/50 full combo starter. Why I think that he will be on the weaker side is if you take advantage of it with a 2 slot gear move, you have limited options past that.
 
Imperium

Imperium

Noob
So Sub-Zero from the stream yesterday seems to have a brand new KB on his F22 string. Hits for 310 damage, no opportunity for a combo after. I'm not 1000% sure on the requirements. Saw it under a few different scenarios.

Also we now know that his Creeping Ice ex can combo in the corner, and can help him confirm into his 124 KB, which is pretty hard to do without Rising Ice.
 
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