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Who takes the top spot?

colby4898

Special Forces Sonya Up-player
Its generally regarded as bad due to the fact that its death on whiff or block and doesn't really give particularly great damage or oki. He shouldn't have a good one considering his toolset though, and in an ideal world that would apply to most characters who are really good(starfire and flash most notably)
Unless he has trait and it’s essentially safe. Same with his parry. And up batarang ex always seems to work too. His wake up game isn’t that bad. He has options.
 
E

Eldriken

Guest
Batman has a decent wake-up game because of anticipating his slide and blocking, but he wakes up with EX batarang and is plus a billion. Or thinking he's gonna wake up with EX batarang, trying to stuff it and eating a slide.

I'd honestly prefer to take the slide because he doesn't get much off of it, I believe.
 

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
Unless he has trait and it’s essentially safe. Same with his parry. And up batarang ex always seems to work too. His wake up game isn’t that bad. He has options.
He can't have trait on wake up. And in regards to the up batarang thing, that is a thing, but its worth noting that if you're a female character or a small crouching hurtbox character like batman himself, that mindgame doesn't exist. You guys definitely do have a point about the up batarang though, I did forget about it.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
The idea that Batman has a bad wakeup game is Bat-propaganda. I've literally had a Batman player tell me how Batman's wakeup game is trash and that I should just jump, only for me to get full combo'd by his MB up batarang. Jokes aside, he has an invincible low slide as a wakeup, and with the addition of parry and up Batarang, that leads to a pretty solid wakeup game. I'd say it's better then about half the cast.
 

Skedar70

Noob
Yup every time an argument comes up for the number 1 spot the discussion revolves around Batman. Batman players will probably accept Batman was #1 for most of the games life after the new NRS game drops. Batman players were arguing with me if he was even top 5 before he got the nerfs to his up batarangs, trait, meter build, and jump in while I was telling them he was #1.
 

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
Yup every time an argument comes up for the number 1 spot the discussion revolves around Batman. Batman players will probably accept Batman was #1 for most of the games life after the new NRS game drops. Batman players were arguing with me if he was even top 5 before he got the nerfs to his up batarangs, trait, meter build, and jump in while I was telling them he was #1.
To be honest you're the only one in this thread saying he's top 1, and a lot of the time you say this while citing false or over exaggerated reasons. He's in contention for top 1, hell he could even be top 1, but you seem to think he is leaps and bounds above everyone else and dominates the cast apparently.
 

ChillerX

Weapon of mass distraction
As of now, the general consensus is that Catwoman, Fate and Firestorm are in contention for the crown, with Batman and Starfire right behind them. Any other nominations?
 

Error

DF2+R2
I sensed a disturbance in the cosmos and ended up here somehow.

Batman is number 1 there's literally never a time he's in a "bad" position on the screen. The most versatile trait by far that enhances his neutral, zoning, offense, counter poking, set play, combo extensions, and even gives him mind games when he should be minus or full combo punishable. MB up rang being the most "why not?" move in the game, a vortex, safe meterless launchers that lead to good damage, competent zoning that can be pretty oppressive especially if he has a life lead. Plus a myriad of other tools with little to no downside.
(Also no way he loses to Red Hood, if anything it's the other way around.)

After him I'd put Catwoman, Firestorm, then Fate, Manta and Robin in any order.

Also Starfire probably isn't even top 10.
 

Skedar70

Noob
Its just funny how the batman players come in soo fast with the downplay. Pointing fingers at other characters that aren't in the same league as batman. Pointing at weaknesses that actually aren't. Bad mu that that actually aren't. This whole thread was made to downplay Batman just look at the OP. Once a Batman player said: "Batmans weakness is good defense" I was like really? How is that not a weakness of every character in every fighting game ever made. That is why you simply can't trust what they say because then comes foreverking and proves them wrong. He made a MU chart in which Batman maybe lost 1 mu destroyed a bunch of the cast and when even with the rest. I remember the old days people saying that Harley was one of his worse MU Lol GTFO.
 

ChillerX

Weapon of mass distraction
Its just funny how the batman players come in soo fast with the downplay. Pointing fingers at other characters that aren't in the same league as batman. Pointing at weaknesses that actually aren't. Bad mu that that actually aren't. This whole thread was made to downplay Batman just look at the OP. Once a Batman player said: "Batmans weakness is good defense" I was like really? How is that not a weakness of every character in every fighting game ever made. That is why you simply can't trust what they say because then comes foreverking and proves them wrong. He made a MU chart in which Batman maybe lost 1 mu destroyed a bunch of the cast and when even with the rest. I remember the old days people saying that Harley was one of his worse MU Lol GTFO.
This thread wasn't even intended to be a Batman downplay one. I main Batman, for crying out loud. I can't downplay my main. I know he is a top character.

The matchups I stated are in sync with King's matchup chart. Here is the link:

https://testyourmight.com/threads/evo-2018-batman-matchup

Maybe not Red Hood and Black Manta, but he still has those as 5-5's.

Batman clearly loses to Green Arrow and might possibly lose to Atom and Captain Cold. I believe Atom has to be a bad matchup. A lot of Batman's strings get low profiled by Atom's crouch and his annoying D1. What's even more pissing off is how he low profiles F3 sometimes when he is crouching. I don't have much matchup experience against Captain Cold, so I will refrain from commenting. The few good Captain Colds I have fought have generally given me a hard time. Can anyone shed light on this matchup, considering that even King feels that it leans towards a 4-6?

The reason I don't have Batman at #1 is because as good as he is, he doesn't quite demolish as many characters as someone like, let's say, Fate. That is part of what makes a character top-tier. Batman is most certainly top 5, hell, maybe even top 3, but as much as I hate to do it, I cannot consider him to be the absolute best in the game when Catwoman, Fate and Firestorm are in the conversation.

Also, when was the last time a Batman player won a major?
 
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Skedar70

Noob
This thread wasn't even intended to be a Batman downplay one. I main Batman, for crying out loud. I can't downplay my main. I know he is a top character.

The matchups I stated are in sync with King's matchup chart. Here is the link:

https://testyourmight.com/threads/evo-2018-batman-matchup

Maybe not Red Hood and Black Manta, but he still has those as 5-5's.

Batman clearly loses to Green Arrow and might possibly lose to Atom and Captain Cold. Atom is most likely a bad matchup.The reason I don't have him at #1 is because he doesn't demolish as many characters as someone like, let's say, Fate. That is part of what makes a character top-tier. Batman is most certainly top 5, hell, maybe even top 3, but as much as I hate to do it, I cannot consider him to be the absolute best in the game when Catwoman, Fate and Firestorm are in the conversation.

Also, when was the last time a Batman player won a major?
I honestly don't think he loses those MU. The only difference is that against those characters he is the one who has to get in. Since Batman players can no longer batarang zone until trait comes back they claim this is a losing mu and its not true just play it as any other character does. Fate I don't know but Batman is definitely better than Catwoman and Firestorm. Why is he better than Catwoman? He has way better rushdown than her and he has zoning to support him also. Why is he better than Firestorm? Same best rushdown and a vortex that you can use way more often than firestorm and way better meterless damage. I believe Catwoman and Firestorm have way more 5/5 than Batman while he as more favorable mu. The only character that I believe can be close to Batman is Black Adam but I still believe Batman is stronger than him.

For the last, I think we should stop using tournaments as reference for tier placement since they only happen once every 2 or 3 months while we have thousands of games being played by the best players in between that can give us better information. Also we always have the same players at the top no matter what character they choose. The only reason why you don't see Batman winning all majors is because Sonicfox doesn't want to use him.

And for Ninja. I'm not saying Batman is this unbeatable monster that is two tiers away from all the other characters. There are other nasty characters in the game also but Batman is just the best one out of all of them.

With this I'm done. Good luck fellas.
 

ChillerX

Weapon of mass distraction
I honestly don't think he loses those MU. The only difference is that against those characters he is the one who has to get in. Since Batman players can no longer batarang zone until trait comes back they claim this is a losing mu and its not true just play it as any other character does. Fate I don't know but Batman is definitely better than Catwoman and Firestorm. Why is he better than Catwoman? He has way better rushdown than her and he has zoning to support him also. Why is he better than Firestorm? Same best rushdown and a vortex that you can use way more often than firestorm and way better meterless damage. I believe Catwoman and Firestorm have way more 5/5 than Batman while he as more favorable mu. The only character that I believe can be close to Batman is Black Adam but I still believe Batman is stronger than him.

For the last, I think we should stop using tournaments as reference for tier placement since they only happen once every 2 or 3 months while we have thousands of games being played by the best players in between that can give us better information. Also we always have the same players at the top no matter what character they choose. The only reason why you don't see Batman winning all majors is because Sonicfox doesn't want to use him.

And for Ninja. I'm not saying Batman is this unbeatable monster that is two tiers away from all the other characters. There are other nasty characters in the game also but Batman is just the best one out of all of them.

With this I'm done. Good luck fellas.
I appreciate your opinion, bro. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Black Adam is not in the same league as Batman. He is a top 10 character at best.

Also, the SonicFox comment was spot on. I loved it. As a Batman player myself, I would love to see him pick up Batman and body everyone.
 
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Tweedy

Noob
Aquaman takes the top spot... if you also have a time machine on you.

What makes Starfire so good now, anyway?
It's just that I do good with her and people can't stand me, so whoever I play is upplayed to the moon. Canary didn't win SCR because Sonic needed Manta vs Herokiller, but Starfire won CB when I only used her vs Gross and Bio lol. The idea that anyone could think she only has 2 losing mus is insane. Do people play or just watch and form opinions off of Starfire being used in good match ups?

Imo Batman and Fate both have a good case for #1. Catwoman too. Adam and Firestorm are a bit overrated I think. Adam has a lot of bad match ups and FS suffers from bad anti airs and ordinary offense without trait.

I use Fate as much as Starfire so have fun calling me a downplayer.
 

John_NX

Your circumstances are dire!
I wanna talk about Batman.I have some experience against him and mainly with a top guy (literally very good. Told me he has played and beaten pros) and he said that Batman isn't even top 10. After he told me that 4-5 times, I lost my shit and we kinda argued. According to him from 1-10: Starfire, Manta, Black Adam, Catwoman, Hellboy, Firestorm, Captain cold, Black canary, Blue bettle, red hood. I don't agree with his "tier list" since black canary and cold are not close to top 10.What really triggered me is the fact that he thinks that his MAIN is really mediocre! Batman has literally everything. He punishes everything and forces you to respect him. You can't have a 70+ win streak and tell me he isn't good. I've seen SOO many players being "carried" by him. He is insane and I don't understand why he is considered "fair", yeah his wakeup game is weak but that's nothing.
Personally I think, (in no particular order):
Batman
Firestorm
Black Adam
Black manta
Atom (Ugh)
And Catwoman (slightly) are the top tiers at the moment.
 

ChillerX

Weapon of mass distraction
I wanna talk about Batman.I have some experience against him and mainly with a top guy (literally very good. Told me he has played and beaten pros) and he said that Batman isn't even top 10. After he told me that 4-5 times, I lost my shit and we kinda argued. According to him from 1-10: Starfire, Manta, Black Adam, Catwoman, Hellboy, Firestorm, Captain cold, Black canary, Blue bettle, red hood. I don't agree with his "tier list" since black canary and cold are not close to top 10.What really triggered me is the fact that he thinks that his MAIN is really mediocre! Batman has literally everything. He punishes everything and forces you to respect him. You can't have a 70+ win streak and tell me he isn't good. I've seen SOO many players being "carried" by him. He is insane and I don't understand why he is considered "fair", yeah his wakeup game is weak but that's nothing.
Personally I think, (in no particular order):
Batman
Firestorm
Black Adam
Black manta
Atom (Ugh)
And Catwoman (slightly) are the top tiers at the moment.
I would take Black Adam out and replace him with Doctor Fate.
 

zabugi

The only Real Master
Are y
While I'm here, I'll throw my voice in about Batman.

"What are his losing matchups? None of us can really think of any, so that proves he's #1."

Let's talk about his flaws, which are thankfully really easy to understand… and incidentally more meaningful to the conversation because we already know how strong Batman is.
  1. His normal range is pretty garbage—there's f2 and that's it.
  2. Pokes aren't so great.
  3. Overreliant on trait.
  4. J2 doesn't mean anything to characters like Cold, Enchantress, etc.
  5. Zoning with batarangs, while effective, builds him no meter and does scarce more damage than other projectiles.
  6. Absolutely shite wakeup game.
  7. Oh, and for the cherry on top, MB air batarang whiffs entirely on females and other characters with low hitboxes like Scarecrow and Atom.
There are more for sure, but that's a good start.
Anyway, back to the discussion. How valuable is it to have no losing matchups, and what does that say about the character's place on a tier list?

Well, it's very valuable. And it says a lot. But it's not a solution.


Tier lists are calculated by matchup numbers. If Batman's chart is mostly 5-5s, then hey! That's great! But it doesn't mean he has the greatest average advantage over anyone else's chart. Doctor Fate, for instance, has about as many losing matchups as Batman (if not more!), but more 6-4s and 7-3s in his favor, so his chart on average has a higher probability of winning than Batman's chart.

You can read more about chart calculation here: https://www.nrstierlist.com/how-to-interpret/

And just for kicks, he struggles pretty consistently against Red Hood and Green Arrow.
are u sure you got you analysis right, yeah he loses loses red hood and green arrow, but up batarang MB whiffing.....nah. Watch nubcakes vs grr war ofthe gods s3 week 10and see what bat man did to the low profile 101 characters (catwoman , atom).
 

zabugi

The only Real Master
Are y
While I'm here, I'll throw my voice in about Batman.

"What are his losing matchups? None of us can really think of any, so that proves he's #1."

Let's talk about his flaws, which are thankfully really easy to understand… and incidentally more meaningful to the conversation because we already know how strong Batman is.
  1. His normal range is pretty garbage—there's f2 and that's it.
  2. Pokes aren't so great.
  3. Overreliant on trait.
  4. J2 doesn't mean anything to characters like Cold, Enchantress, etc.
  5. Zoning with batarangs, while effective, builds him no meter and does scarce more damage than other projectiles.
  6. Absolutely shite wakeup game.
  7. Oh, and for the cherry on top, MB air batarang whiffs entirely on females and other characters with low hitboxes like Scarecrow and Atom.
There are more for sure, but that's a good start.
Anyway, back to the discussion. How valuable is it to have no losing matchups, and what does that say about the character's place on a tier list?

Well, it's very valuable. And it says a lot. But it's not a solution.


Tier lists are calculated by matchup numbers. If Batman's chart is mostly 5-5s, then hey! That's great! But it doesn't mean he has the greatest average advantage over anyone else's chart. Doctor Fate, for instance, has about as many losing matchups as Batman (if not more!), but more 6-4s and 7-3s in his favor, so his chart on average has a higher probability of winning than Batman's chart.

You can read more about chart calculation here: https://www.nrstierlist.com/how-to-interpret/

And just for kicks, he struggles pretty consistently against Red Hood and Green Arrow.
are u sure you got you analysis right, yeah he loses loses red hood and green arrow, but up batarang MB whiffing.....nah. Watch nubcakes vs grr war ofthe gods s3 week 10and see what bat man did to the low profile 101 characters (catwoman , atom).
 

Sage Leviathan

I'm platinum mad!
Are y
are u sure you got you analysis right, yeah he loses loses red hood and green arrow, but up batarang MB whiffing.....nah. Watch nubcakes vs grr war ofthe gods s3 week 10and see what bat man did to the low profile 101 characters (catwoman , atom).
Well, I think I did choose my words poorly ^^'
I do believe that characters (with hitboxes low to the ground) have the upper hand against Batman when they knock him down. In particular, I think about his slide on block and the risk-reward it presents in the face of pressure.

But you are right about MB air batarang as a wakeup. If I could go back, I would probably say instead "MB air batarang usually doesn't whiff, but sometimes it does and that can suck."

Nubcakes, I think, is the perfect example of a Batman player.
He does just about everything right and I love watching him play.
 
Do all these Batman downplayers forget that he can WAKE UP BACK DASH? He has the better back dash, and better wake up options overall than many other characters in the game. Top tier Black Adam always wishes he had half of those options.
By the way, I doubt the Batman struggle vs Red Hood is still real after Red Hood took a huge accidental nerf on his oki game